Speaker 0 00:00:00 <silence>
Speaker 1 00:00:17 Welcome back, cosmic Fa to another episode of The Cosmic Circle, the official podcast of the Cosmic Circus, where we discuss anything and everything nerdy in the entire cosmos. On today's episode, we'll be discussing Daredevil's journey to the M C U. My name is Brian Kitson, head writer at The Cosmic Circus. And joining me today is I love Ruby and Anthony Flagg. How are we doing today?
Speaker 2 00:00:38 Hello, I'm Alan. I'm very happy to be here. I'm doing great. <laugh>
Speaker 1 00:00:44 <laugh>.
Speaker 3 00:00:45 Glad to hear that. Hey, Alex Anthony, happy New Year, first off, and I'm doing good. I'm ready to talk to your devil.
Speaker 1 00:00:51 Uh, I'm so glad to have you two back. It's always great talking to you too. And we're just gonna dive right in. So, going back, we're gonna start way back in 2013 when Daredevil on Netflix was first announced, and this felt like a big deal. You know, this wasn't just Daredevil, this was Daredevil Cage, um, iron Fist, Jessica Jones, and of course the defenders. And then it finally debuted in April of 2015. So what were like your first impressions or your first connections to the series? Because I have my own personal journey getting to Daredevil. It was very interesting, but I kind of wanna know where the two of you started and how you got there. So whoever wants to go first? No pressure <laugh>.
Speaker 3 00:01:34 Well, mine's more like working backwards rather than forwards. 'cause I didn't start watching the show until last year. 'cause instead what of 2023? Yeah. Yeah. I never saw it before. So it wasn't until after I saw him in No Way Home that I took the time to go and watch. And I watched the first two seasons within a month and then I slowly trickled out the last of the third. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, that was fun. Did you get
Speaker 1 00:01:57 Burnt out
Speaker 3 00:01:59 A little bit. 'cause you know, it had that Netflix theme to it. A lot of episodes. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and they were kind of long. But at the same time I was also taking pauses because I started reading a lot of the comics. I started from like 2011 and then worked my way up to like present day. So it was kind of funny 'cause the comics from the Modern, they don't start off the same way as the show. The show's a lot more dark, which is fine. That's one of the best things about it. So, um,
Speaker 1 00:02:28 What do you think took you so long to maybe jump into that? Because I mean, like, that is a long time to wait, especially for someone who's a Marvel Nut as we all tend to be here at the cosmic circles. So like, what was, what took you so long to get there? I gotta know <laugh>.
Speaker 3 00:02:41 I don't, I don't know. I guess I never really thought about the character too much 'cause I watched Luke Cage Seasons one and two as they came out. Um, I watched Iron Fist a little bit as it came out and a little bit of Punisher as well. So like, I don't know why Just Daredevil never seemed interesting to me. I remember trying to watch the first episode like four years ago and just didn't click for me until I went back and rewashed it. And like, I think episode two or three when he has that, when he goes and rescues that kid. And that's just like when I think most people are just like sold right then and there mm-hmm. <affirmative> and I kept moving forward after that.
Speaker 1 00:03:13 Sure. Absolutely. I I I hope that there's no slander for Daredevil here. <laugh>.
Speaker 2 00:03:19 No, no, no. It's okay. I actually had a similar like, backwards way into it. Um, so I didn't really know much about the character, I guess back when it was announced in 2013. Um, I, you know, I guess Captain America had just come out in 2011 and, you know, I, I thought it was cool, but I wasn't as super into the, the M C U at that point. You know, my, I was, I was still very much a Spider-Man person and I didn't really care if, if things weren't Spider-Man, like, I was just, I, I liked Spider-Man. I don't know. So like, I, I wasn't sold on the M C U yet yet. Um, in 2016, I remember watching Jessica Jones, I think. Um, and I watched the first season and I watched a little bit about T Cage, but then Jessica Jones got super dark and I had to stop.
Speaker 2 00:04:08 I just couldn't watch it anymore. Um, and I think I just swore off all the, uh, Netflix stuff for a while. Um, so I didn't like start reading about it or start watching it rather until last year. And I think probably around the same time as, as you Anthony, when I, um, you know, I, I just had an interest in it. So I started the first episode and, you know, I was hooked and I think I watched them all very, very quickly. I went through all the seasons and then I started reading the comics. Um, and, and on all the seasons I also watched The Defenders. 'cause of course that counts. And I don't know, I just, I love the character. I think it's, I think he's awesome. So that was my way in.
Speaker 1 00:04:53 So what's interesting is we, we all had very kind of similar, uh, beginnings to the M C U, with the exception of that. I started watching Daredevil as it came. I did not start watching the M C U regularly until Captain America, the Winter Soldier came out. I'd actually not seen most of those movies and had to buy them all individually after my friend was like, let's go see Winter Soldier in theaters. And I was like, okay, whatever. And then I was like, oh, this is great. And so I remember that when they announced Daredevil, uh, it wasn't that big of a deal. But when you saw that first trailer, you know, up to that point, the only daredevil I'd really known was Ben Affleck. And, you know, we don't talk about Af Ben Affleck Darriel per se <laugh>, but his, the one that was presented in the trailer was just so mu so different.
Speaker 1 00:05:43 The Daredevil one was completely like 360 degrees. Well, I guess that's completely round circle, nevermind, 180 degrees circle, not circle. But it was a complete change. And I kind of fell in love with that right away. I was like, wow, this is an interesting take. And I had rem I remember that, uh, me and a friend that day. We had taken off of work and we binged the whole series in one day and I was hooked instantly. I was like, this is, this is the show. Like, it was dark and it was gritty and it was different, but it wasn't unrecognizable. I think that was very important because it was like still an M c U thing that I recognized, but it was just a little bit different. And so I really, really enjoyed that.
Speaker 2 00:06:29 I just wanna jump in real quick and say somewhere out there in the multiverse, Ben Affleck is Daredevil.
Speaker 1 00:06:36 No, we don't, we don't, I mean, maybe in Secret Wars, but like, that's the future <laugh>. Um, with the Daredevil though, being a darker take, there was a little more, uh, there was a little more violence. It sounds like I left for you. That was a little bit of like a, a little not Okay. Like, that sounded like it was a little too much for you.
Speaker 2 00:07:00 It, the Jessica Joan, just Jessica Jones season one, the end of it. And I think the start of season two was just too much for me. And I just, at that point in my life, I was like, I can't do this. So I think I needed time and space to, you know, kind of enjoy this all.
Speaker 1 00:07:16 Okay. So for the two of you then, what moments stuck out about, out to you about Daredevil on Netflix?
Speaker 3 00:07:24 Ooh.
Speaker 1 00:07:24 Like what were those moments?
Speaker 3 00:07:26 I mean, this is, man,
Speaker 1 00:07:27 I know
Speaker 2 00:07:28 Season three, but the prison hallway scene, because that was freaking incredible filmmaking and just stunts and just incredible.
Speaker 3 00:07:38 Wasn't that one take.
Speaker 2 00:07:40 It was one take and it was, what, 11 minutes? I think it was just mm-hmm.
Speaker 3 00:07:43 <affirmative> over 10 minutes. I remember that. Yeah. I love that. Every,
Speaker 1 00:07:47 I love that every season had a scene like that. Like there was the stereo scene, what was that Season two? And like, every episode, every season had that scene that was just like pure cinematography master class. Like it was beautiful. And I love that there was like room for like, both like, beautiful shots like that, but also it was an action sequence. Like, who doesn't love action? And that was just really, really cool. What was it for you, Anthony? Like, what was, what are some scenes that stick out to you?
Speaker 3 00:08:18 Uh, they're gonna, you're not gonna believe this, but the scenes in season three when he was recovering, when he was inside of the Catholic church where he grew up as a kid, I really liked those 'cause it really showed Matt's resilience where he just didn't give up and fought his way back to be back in a, um, fighting form to continue. And then also just the parallels of his que him questioning his faith and, and training their privately. I mean, one of my favorite scenes was, uh, when they hired the private boxer and the guy's like, but this guy's blind. And wham, Matt's just like ready to start smacking him around. And the guy's like, all right. You know, like, sure. And, and his mom behind him the whole time. But I, I really liked seeing him work with the Catholic Church and some of those specifically in season three.
Speaker 3 00:09:09 Um mm-hmm. <affirmative>, other bits were his interactions with other characters like Frank Castle with The Punisher. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> that whole bit. Where, where they, you know, Frank's like, look, we did the same thing. We just do it differently. I know it doesn't make sense, but like, they're working towards a common goal of justice. They just don't see eye to eye. And since I've read a couple of Daredevil Punisher comics, it was nice to see that, um, interaction on screen. So I'm hoping, I'm trying to think of the last one was, um, hi, his, his scenes with, um, the ones that were like flashbacks showing his interactions with Elektra. I really enjoyed those as well, just kind of building on the character more and showing the history without spending too much time there.
Speaker 1 00:09:52 You know, it's interesting, you, you know, you both mentioned season three, which was great, but I feel like season two doesn't always get enough love. And I think because of what you just said there, Anthony, of just this like, duality between Daredevil and the Punisher and like how that's constantly brought up in the season. And then you also have like, the comparison between him and Elektra. And there is, there's this, it's not like a love triangle, but there's definitely this, like he's kind of caught in the middle between these two people of like, that all three are doing the same things, but so different. And he's the only one that has like this morality to him. Um, that I think that season two was just like one of my top favorites. And I know it's not score wise, people didn't care for that one quite so much. You know, it only has an 81% on Rotten Tomatoes compared to the 99 of season one and 97 of season three. But I just feel like that does really stand out because it brings up an interesting dynamic that you didn't necessarily see in that first season. 'cause the first season was kind of his origin story.
Speaker 2 00:10:50 I think anytime you have, um, you have a someone who turns out to be a villain, you have that turn, that twist. I think it's interesting. But I felt, I felt like season two of Daredevil and then the Defenders was just a little bit squishy for me mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, villain wise. And I, I wish that, I almost wish that it was like written so that that Ekra and Nobu and, and everyone was just, um, more formidable. Um, sure. I, I think that, I think that as far as, um, things I really enjoyed, I really like, you know, like you said, I really enjoyed the flashbacks, seeing their past, I thought, you know, anytime there are flashbacks in, in a TV series where you see their life before or you see um, you know, their life maybe before they came into their powers, I'm a big fan of that.
Speaker 2 00:11:44 And on that same note, I really enjoyed the scenes, um, in season one, where we got to see about Jack and we got to see about, you know, uh, Matt Murdoch, the kid and how, you know, he, his, his actual origin story for his blindness and how all of that came to be. I really thought that was, um, emotional. I, you know, we can all empathize with, with a kid whose dad is, you know, gone and, you know, wanting to live up to that and all of that. Um, and I really, really enjoyed Adeem. Um, he, you know, he, he wasn't a flashback, but I thought that everything, every scene he was in, he was just like, fantastic. And I thought the character was so complex and it was just really, really fun seeing him, seeing him on the screen. And I was sad when he was gone, but I understand why he needed to be gone story-wise.
Speaker 1 00:12:36 Was he an original character for the show or was he also in the comics? Because I don't, I feel like I remember him being a, like a character that was made for the series, but now I might be completely mucking it up. But I feel like you're right. He was a really good, he's a really good character to have, um, in Daredevil because he had that, he had that conflict in him too. And he was in that season where there was, it was a lot more straightforward. There was, you know, going, we're going for Kingpin and, and we're not even Matt Murdoch anymore. And he was kind of the balance between like a human and someone kind of stuck in that morality phase. Um, he
Speaker 2 00:13:12 Was original to the, to the Netflix show. Um, okay. So I, I don't think he was in the comics anywhere, but, uh, Anthony you might be able to answer that better than I I can.
Speaker 3 00:13:24 Yeah. I think he was just a, a name to F b I agent. I don't see anything where he was actually in any comics.
Speaker 1 00:13:31 He was fantastic though. Um, but something along those lines is, you mentioned ala the villains. And two things I think that we need to talk about for the Daredevil series is that there's a great cast of heroes, and by heroes, I mean his family of Karen Page and Foggy and even Claire Temple. But there's also some great villains throughout the series. We have, you know, Wilson, Wilson Fisk mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and we have Point Dexter, you know, and while we didn't get to see in Be Bull's eye, we were kind of headed that way. So, you know, ki let's start with the villains, like, yeah. Let's start with the villains. What were your guys' impressions of the overall villains? Maybe Sand's, Electra, like we have Kingpin and he is like the ultimate mm-hmm. <affirmative> villain. And we have Bullseye, which we saw previously in the, the film version with Ben Affleck, which this one was very different from that. So what did the two of you think of those two characters showing up in Daredevil?
Speaker 2 00:14:27 I think Kingpin is one of the scar, uh, kingpin as he is in the, the Marvel series is one of the scariest villains. Um, that there is, I think just so the acting to bring that to screen was phenomenal, but the writing was so incredible. He's just like, he, I don't know, I don't know if he's a what his psychological problem is, but like, he's just creepy and you know, he makes the hair on the back of your neck stand up and gives you goosebumps and just, you know, his conflict with, with Murdoch and um, you know, this back and forth between them is just so incredible. And so, like, it, I think part of the reason why for me, season two, the villain and the defenders didn't work as much was 'cause Kingpin was just so hard to beat
Speaker 3 00:15:19 Kingpin's a good one. And, and I feel like he's a, he's a constant, you're gonna always need him when you come to Dared. Like you have to have him, the background, so many words have been said about him, and he was fantastic, but really what I, I'm just upset. We didn't really get, um, a full bullseye, but I liked the twist that they took on it where he had mental issues and, and he broke after just a little bit of pressure of a denial from the woman. Um, and then realizing that Kingpin had been manipulating him the entire time, says a lot about not just Dexter, but also, you know, in this case Kingpin and what he's not short of willing to do to get his way. Um, I
Speaker 1 00:16:00 Think you're right there. I mean, bullseye was very, it was more interesting for me as a psychologist because it was the slow unravel of someone whose psyche was just barely hanging on. And, you know, he had a very structured life. And the moment you kind of push that outta the structure, which we kind of see, you know, I think you, the interesting too is you got to see Kingpin kind of pulling things from behind the scenes, which in the first couple seasons he, while he did that, he was very much the, like, the, I'm gonna beat you up, Daredevil kind of bad guy, you know, and this time you get to kind of see more of that crime organization of like, I can control an F b I agent, you know, I can control Ray and deem and I can control Pointdexter. And while we didn't get to see him become Bullseye, I think that it's probably gonna happen sometime in the near future, which we'll talk about in the next episode. He, but I think that they, they were very interesting, bad guys.
Speaker 2 00:16:52 He was really flexing his, like his intellectual manipulation of everyone there instead of the violence, like you mentioned, he really, um, you know, he, he was moving the chess pieces all around to get people to do what they mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, what he wanted them to do. And I think that Bullseye also is really interesting because, so when I looked at the actor beforehand, you know, Wilson Bethel, I had known him from Heart of Dixie, heart of Dixie's, very, very different than an character.
Speaker 1 00:17:21 He's from that show.
Speaker 2 00:17:22 Yeah. He's the like, main romantic lead in that show. And I, I was a hard of Dixie fan and, you know, I <laugh> I was a, a Wilson Bethel fan, so seeing him in Daredevil and seeing how he pulled that off was just like, it, it's just a testament to his acting ability because they're completely different characters.
Speaker 1 00:17:41 I had no idea he was in Hard of Dixie, but that is so different Wade that Okay. That's so different than Daredevil. Yeah. Um, I don't know if any, either one of you have watched All Rise, um, with mm-hmm. <affirmative>, another actress from the Yep. Marvel Netflix shows, but he is in that too, and he is completely different, so. Yep. Um, that's very interesting. And so, like for you, there was a, you already kind of liked him before this?
Speaker 2 00:18:07 I, I did. And I, you know, that was kind of, you know, the fact that I was just totally creeped out by him, you know, it was just a testament to how mm-hmm. <affirmative>, like how well he pulled off the role <laugh>.
Speaker 1 00:18:19 I think that is very interesting too, because like, these characters were scary. Like, I think that, like there was times where the villain just gave you the creeps. And like, the one scene that sticks out is, there's a scene in the first season where there's a bowling alley, and I don't wanna say too much, you know, for trigger warnings, <laugh>, but there's, yeah, there's a bowling alley scene. And to this day I still watch it and I cringe. 'cause it is like, so because grotesque, but a hundred percent makes you feel like these villains are real.
Speaker 2 00:18:47 And not only are is is that scene that you're talking about grotesque, but it's, there's like nothing supernatural. It's just pure, no like evil violence. And, you know, there Fisk isn't supernatural, there's nothing magical or powerful about him. He's just like a bad dude. And the same with Bullseye, um, you know, EK's a different story, but I know it was a different story. But, um, you know, they, these were I guess street level characters that just
Speaker 1 00:19:19 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>,
Speaker 2 00:19:20 Scary <laugh>,
Speaker 1 00:19:22 There was a more realistic violence to the street level characters throughout the, all these shows. Turning then to, from that, we have his band of heroes. So we have Karen Page fog, like I said, foggy Nelson, Claire Temple, you know, Anthony, what do you think of these? This team of the Daredevil team? We'll call them.
Speaker 3 00:19:43 I've always liked Foggy Nelson in the show, in the comics mm-hmm. <affirmative> because he's a good friend, but he is honest. You know, when, when Matt decides to not loop him in on things, he, he acts reacts properly in my opinion and just kind of doesn't want to get involved with it. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, I thought it was a powerful way for him to make that, what was it, run for DA in season three, and then use it as the last minute power play to turn around and get Fisk arrested and get things moving for them. 'cause that's a big, um,
Speaker 1 00:20:15 Sacrifice.
Speaker 3 00:20:16 <laugh>. Yes. It's a huge sacrifice for him to give. Thank you. You're welcome for him to give that up. But, but knowing what the bigger stakes are, it was of course a, you know, great move from him, but at the same time it spoke to the faith he had in Matt mm-hmm. <affirmative> knowing he had to do this because together they were gonna come down and, and take him down. Um, so Foggy has always been a righteous character. Karen, I do like Karen, there's just a lot of weird moments, but I think there was just more of the writing rather than her 'cause like mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 00:20:48 <affirmative>,
Speaker 3 00:20:49 I feel like she had a better chemistry with Punisher than with Matt most of the time. And, and they didn't have that many episodes together. It was only like half of season two and a little bit of season three. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So, yeah, I, I've always go
Speaker 1 00:21:04 Ahead and she was in the Punisher too for a little bit.
Speaker 3 00:21:07 Yeah. But I only watched the first season, so I didn't, I don't think I saw anything with her in it, but not just them, um, stick as well. I thought the portrayal of Stick was really, really good. Sure. I'm sure most people agree with that one though is kind of a given. Um, I, the only supporting character I really just am upset about is that they killed, um, Leland so early on mm-hmm. <affirmative> and, um, what do you call it? And Wesley, I just really wanted to see more of them in later parts, especially Wesley because of how useful he was to kingpin throughout it all for him to lose him, so mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
Speaker 1 00:21:45 Yeah. There's definitely some weird, uh, like you said, they kind of dropped, uh, that character. But I, I do, I have to say that I love Foggy for the fact that he is just like, he's, he is like righteous without being cocky. Like, he's just like such a good person. He just wants to do good things. And I think that like when you described giving up his, his run for DA in exchange, um, for keeping going to jail, like, I think like for you finally saw how they were so essential to the team that they weren't just these like secondhand characters. The thing about Karen Page, though that I do love is that they went from like this very spooky entrance to her of like, murdering someone or like potentially murdering someone and being accused of that to being like their right hand person to being like a journalist. Like she had a good arc and it started off very interesting, but I feel like after a while they almost like forgot what to do with her. Like they didn't know quite what to do. I think though, we're also ignoring Claire Temple here because Claire Temple was awesome and she should be in everything. Ra Dawson is perfect.
Speaker 2 00:22:56 I agree with you there. You know, from her introduction on Daredevil, just you like have so many questions about her and mm-hmm. <affirmative>, she's phenomenal. And in Luke Cage she was awesome, and I just like, I hope we see her again. I know that's not what we're talking about on the podcast, but I just want, want more of her. Um, I, I think I totally agree with you that, that foggy is kind of, um, like he, he is doing, he's interested in doing the right thing, but he is also very practical about it. He is mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, he, he kind of has realistic expectations and uses that to his advantage. Um, I think Karen was very, um, she had a great arc. I think she, people did forget about her, or I guess the writers, whoever did kind of forget what to do about her.
Speaker 2 00:23:44 I think she's the most realistic of a lot of, um, I guess the side characters are most maybe mm-hmm. <affirmative> grounded because, you know, she, she's a woman who wants to get away from her past. She goes to the, the big city. I think that's, you know, something we can maybe identify with. Um, I think that I I, her becoming a journalist was interesting to me. I thought, you know, started kind of making Lois Lane comparisons in my head because Yes. Um, especially with the secret identity of, of Mad and, you know, her not realizing initially. And, and I think I wanna think about that some more. But, um, I was also very sad when, uh, Ben Ulrich was killed. I really enjoyed his character. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> again, I know why they had to do it story-wise, but he was super likable and that makes me sad.
Speaker 1 00:24:37 You know, the thing about Karen too is I do like that they made her more than what, I haven't read a lot of comic books, so correct me Anthony, but like, she's kind of just like the person that runs the office. At least that's how I remember her from the first, uh, from Ben FX film where she was played by Ella Pompeo of Grey's Anatomy, which is always a very interesting to me. <laugh>.
Speaker 2 00:25:01 I didn't know that. But she
Speaker 1 00:25:02 Just, it still strikes me as very like, very odd to think that like she's, that was one of the first things I saw her in. And I went through how many seasons of Grey's Anatomy with her, but I digress, <laugh>, but she was just like the professional secretary. She like, that's all she did was like, she took third notes and she like answered the phone calls. And Karen Page and Daredevil got a more significant role, which is probably much better than just making her professional secretary.
Speaker 3 00:25:31 Yep. Pretty, like you said, she was pretty much just taking calls and everything. At least when she started, she's kind of waltzed in and like, Hey, I need a job. They're like, sure you're pretty, this, this is perfect, you know, <laugh>. But, um, they didn't really establish her with a real relationship until later on, which is actually where I was at when I was in the, where I'm at currently in the nineties was was, uh, she ran off to go to the West coast to be a radio announcer. Oh. And then comes back to New York because a lot of bad things, I don't wanna say them on podcasts, a lot of horrible things happened to her while she was out there. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And then she comes back to Matt kind of like looking for comfort. Mm-hmm. And he takes care of her and, and it plays out a lot more and it's actually really enjoyable.
Speaker 3 00:26:20 So that's the Marvel Knights run, like from 1998 where it begins, it's, it's mad right from the beginning. So at the same time, they also, at least for the show, they gave her a little bit of trauma. Like she just wakes up and like, oh my God, I think I killed my coworker and there's people after me. Um, but they kept her from being completely useless as you know, she ran around those last two seasons and was telling stories on her own and gathering evidence and, and working within her power. But I, I don't know about her coming back. I'd, I'd be all right with her not coming back.
Speaker 1 00:26:59 Okay.
Speaker 2 00:27:00 It's, it's almost a trope right. With her. 'cause she is covered in blood and, but mm-hmm. <affirmative>, she grows because she has, she very much has her own wants and she, you know, does, doesn't, um, do things to make in in service of the other characters. She, like, she has her own agenda and you can see that when she kills, um, Wesley and you can see that. And just some of her, her other, when she deals with the fallout from that, it's, she's, she's her own person living out her own story. And I think that's a, a real strength of the character.
Speaker 1 00:27:35 And I think that that is the strength in a lot of the characters is that they all grow. They're not just very static characters. You know, this isn't just Matt Murdoch's story, even though he's Daredevil. And I think that the way that it kind of progresses to the end, which we're gonna have to get to in a second, is, you know, they all ended up happy, but they all ended up changed. You know, it ended with spoiler alert, uh, with Kingpin ending up in jail and Matt and Karen and Foggy are all going back to their law office. And then the series was canceled on us in, you know, in November of 2018. And we thought that was the end. We thought this was over.
Speaker 2 00:28:13 Well, some, some people thought it was over, but the Daredevil fans, you know, never gave up. There was that whole giant campaign saved Daredevil. Yeah. Saved Daredevil. And it worked. And I think Charlie Cox even went to some of the saved Daredevil events and was like so touched by
Speaker 1 00:28:29 Sure.
Speaker 2 00:28:29 By their campaign. Yes.
Speaker 1 00:28:32 I, I think that like we wouldn't be, I think we wouldn't be even having this conversation of a return if it wasn't for Charlie Cox. You know, we didn't talk a lot about him in his own series, but that man embodied Matt Murdoch and Daredevil very well. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I think he's the reason, I mean he obviously he's the reason it's all coming back, but like, they didn't recast him. They brought him back. That's huge.
Speaker 2 00:28:57 I just wanna point out that he has a British accent in real life and how jarring it is. <laugh>, this is like, uh, since we're talking about him, how jarring it is to hear him talk normally and how like great he was in Daredevil, how that doesn't come out and how he embodies this Hell's Kitchen guy. So, well
Speaker 1 00:29:16 That is a fair point. I watched a TV show with him recently where he has his British accent and it threw me off for a long part of the series.
Speaker 3 00:29:25 Yeah. I also watched King of Thieves that he's in and that one same, I was just like, yeah, I forgot you. You're not, you're not actually American. <laugh> <laugh>.
Speaker 1 00:29:36 So we, some people thought it was gonna be the end in 2018, but fast forward to the worst kept secret of the M C U, besides the Spider-Man. Um, he returned the Spider-Man No Way Home in 2021 and everybody knew this was happening and there was leaked photos and they still just mm-hmm. <affirmative> they rode that. So what is your impression of him coming back and is he in your eyes the same daredevil from the Daredevil Netflix series in quite your mind's? Gotta know Anthony's thinking about this. I know he's <laugh>. Did you not like it?
Speaker 3 00:30:19 No, I liked it. I'm just thinking, is it the same universe? I think parts of it are.
Speaker 1 00:30:25 So you think it's like a piecemeal kind of thing?
Speaker 3 00:30:27 I think so. In this case, just work with what they do like and want to use. And then everything else doesn't matter. I just like the fact that if you think about it in the deleted scenes, you technically got Matt Murdoch with a multiverses foggy Nelson since John FAU was foggy Nelson in the movie. Oh,
Speaker 1 00:30:46 True. That is true.
Speaker 2 00:30:48 And you're
Speaker 1 00:30:48 Refer how of the table
Speaker 2 00:30:49 You're referring to Daredevil. Right. The, the with with Ben Affleck. And he was, he was
Speaker 3 00:30:54 The foggy in
Speaker 2 00:30:55 Movie. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:30:58 Um, so kind of like a piecemeal kind of thing. Okay. Ala what about you?
Speaker 2 00:31:02 I, so, you know, before Spider-Man, I didn't get like why people were so excited about Daredevil. 'cause I hadn't, um, hadn't entered the daredevil excitement yet. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but people cheered in theater for him in his return. Yes. And that was pretty cool and pretty powerful. I, I really liked that. So it was, there was a deleted scene and then there wa that, that Anthony's referring to mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and that's like in a conference room where, you know, he's a client or he's representing fau, um, as you know, his client. And then there's the scene with, with Spider-Man and I just think it's says so much, right? He's mm-hmm. <affirmative>, he's being, he's in his lawyer firm form, he's like doing good. He's getting Spider-Man off mm-hmm. <affirmative> of the charges and, and all of that. But then he's still dared to, he catches this brick mm-hmm. <affirmative> and it's just like so powerful and so, um, so kick ass. And I, I, I enjoyed that in that return. Um, I think that, I don't know if it's part of the M C U, I have a lot of questions. I need more, more content to figure out. Sure. If it, if it's part of the, if he's the same daredevil, um, I wanna believe that it is and that he is. So that's where I'm at.
Speaker 1 00:32:26 I think that, you know, having been on the hype train for what it was, and at the time I hadn't seen season three, but I had loved Charlie Cox as Daredevil. And so just when there started to be those hints of like Charlie Cox was coming back and like I was super excited. I was like, this is going to be great. While it was a short entry back into it, it was just like this connective little tissue of just like, it wasn't all just a dream or it wasn't all for nothing. Like, granted you can enjoy Daredevil on itself, but you know, the M C U has always built itself on this prideful, connected universe. So to have this like moment of be at the same daredevil or it's a variant, you got to see that he is in this world and he's not just a lawyer. He still had his powers, he still caught that brick, which was awesome. You know, like it was actually faster than Spider-Man's Peter Tingle. Like Yeah. That was something cool.
Speaker 2 00:33:23 You know, I really on on that note too, I really wanna believe that it is the same universe because in, I, I think in the Daredevil pilot right, there's this kind of illusion to the greater M C U and I think there's mm-hmm. There's a solution to buildings being wrecked and that helping real estate price. So I think it's a pilot of the second episode and you know, they're, I think they're referencing, referencing the incidents with the Chiari, the mm-hmm. You know, the events from the Avengers, New York. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And I think that I, I just wanna believe it's the same because of that <laugh>,
Speaker 1 00:33:56 They actually refer to it multiple times in the first season as the incident. Yes.
Speaker 3 00:34:00 Yeah. The incident.
Speaker 1 00:34:01 And it's even in like newspaper clippings in um, Erlich's office and he's talking about it. One of them even mentions like the Hulk. Um, but I, I feel like Anthony, you're, you're probably right 'cause it does open up a can of worms because when you start to think about it, like Poke and Dagger mentions Luke Cage and Luke Cage is in this world, and then you also have to take Iron Fist and like nobody liked Iron Fist. And so it does become kind of a game of like, is it easier just to say this is a variant and to bring back the people we like and keep the people that we don't like out and recast those? Or is it kind of ca is there a way to do it story-wise that like all of this time we saw many these characters still mean something to this character in this world and I wanna believe it is too. Um, but if it is, what do you guys think happened with the Snap? 'cause that that was, that's a major point. You know, this was the blip this, did he disappear? Did he come back? Who came back? And I think that leads into the Hawkeye section too.
Speaker 3 00:34:59 Since I thought about this the other day before, while we were prepping for this, I'm gonna say he didn't get snapped because that's how he spent all that time to get passed in the bar in California so you could practice for She Hulk.
Speaker 2 00:35:12 So I totally looked this up and I'm gonna interrupt real quick because I was wondering that as well. So apparently if you're a lawyer in one state, you don't necessarily have to pass the bar in another state to um, like to practice. Sometimes you'll have a helper attorney, but it's something called, and I'm gonna butcher this, but it's called Pro Hack Vice, where you like tell the, ask the court to, um, basically to, to do your job for this one case. So that could be an explanation. I'm just jumping in there because I looked it up because I was curious about what you said <laugh>,
Speaker 3 00:35:45 There's also a chance that he was already practicing beforehand back in the mm-hmm. <affirmative> Day, so mm-hmm. <affirmative> that could expedite it. Yeah. I've thought about it. I mean, how many times could he have represented, what was the designer's name? Um, Ooh,
Speaker 2 00:36:00 <laugh>. Not Melvin. Melvin was his guy. And New York, Melvin was the
Speaker 3 00:36:03 One in, in the, in the Netflix, the
Speaker 2 00:36:05 Gladiator. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3 00:36:06 <affirmative>. Yeah. But I'm thinking of the one in she hook. But it's like, no, he could have represented him before in another one. That seems like there's probably a reason why he has him on retainer to begin with. 'cause he's like, I only work with famous people. Well, Daredevil's really not that famous because he only really operates out of one borough in New York City. Mm-hmm. On the other side of the country from where this guy works.
Speaker 1 00:36:27 That's a fair point. I do think it was kind of interesting to throw him in there, but I think like it was the easiest way to give a bigger introduction to him being back in the c u. But I think you're right. Like logistically it doesn't make sense. 'cause how often are people flying across the country? I guess if you're a bigwig lawyer, maybe that that's a bigger idea. You know, maybe that's a bigger concept that you could do.
Speaker 3 00:36:46 Well if I recall, I wanna say like in season two or three that they mentioned, or maybe it was in Defenders that like Matt had never really left the city ever. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, like there's a mention of it somewhere, I can't remember right now, but they say like, yeah, you've never really left not just the city, but let alone the state in New York. So like something must have happened at some point for it to happen for him to be able to practice.
Speaker 1 00:37:09 Right. And
Speaker 2 00:37:10 To find this superhero costume designer, because that's not something you can exactly stumble upon. You gotta know somebody that's gonna tell you, okay, you see this guy, he's gonna make you a suit and mm-hmm. <affirmative> if, if Matt knows somebody who tells him like where to get a suit. Has, um, has Daredevil had interactions with other superheroes because there sure were a lot of suits and hangers and, and things mm-hmm. There in that studio that, you know, he's, he is costume designer to, to all the Avengers. I think that's mm-hmm. Is it, I think it's, it kind of opens up a spot for Daredevil to be friends with. Sure. Or professional colleagues with other superheroes. <laugh>.
Speaker 1 00:37:55 So the thing about the, the, the, the snap for me that I wanna say that he was Snap and this is my reason why, there's two reasons. I think it makes it easier for people to accept him being with She Hulk or something. If it was like a similar situation to Dr. Strange and, um, oh my gosh, what was her name? Christine.
Speaker 1 00:38:15 Christine, yes. Because if he was snapped, Karen could move on. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and Karen's already with someone else then. Like, that takes care of that storyline rather easily. I think it also makes sense too because for five years now, he hasn't worked with Spider-Man. You know, spider-Man's been active, active all these, I guess he was blipped too, but like, you know what I mean? Like, he came back and there was, there was not, I don't know, it just, it, it feels like that's the simpler answer. He's just been gone for five years and he has to refine himself. You know, he's born again, now he's has to refine himself in his life and in his world. And maybe in a way that was simpler to go somewhere else in the world, going to California to defend someone when you have no ties here anymore. 'cause everybody's moved on. Like, 'cause they thought you were gone. So I wanna believe like maybe that's part of it. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But it also could explain maybe how Kingpin got outta jail. Because you know, when we see Kingpin again in Hawkeye, he's an active crime Lord. Again, he's not the, he's he's not in jail where we left him. Well
Speaker 2 00:39:17 He's, he's an active crime Lord, but he's not super effective. Right. He's got the tracksuit Mafiaa, which sure. You know, they're not, they're not the brightest of the bunch. Um Sure. Except for, for Caz and, and and Echo. So like he doesn't quite have, he doesn't seem to quite strike as much fear as he once did in, in everybody's heart. So
Speaker 1 00:39:42 I dunno, he is big in imposing. Yes. But I don't feel like he was affect, he seemed more comical than scary. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, which I love that you said that earlier about he was one of the scariest villains. Kingpin was terrifying in Daredevil. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And he almost seemed like a joke. Come Hawkeye,
Speaker 2 00:39:59 The, the, the kingpin and Hawkeye was not the same kingpin that cut the dude's head off in the car. They're just not Yeah. On the same level. Yeah. No way.
Speaker 1 00:40:10 Like he didn't think twice. Like he met Echo in that, you know, in the behind those buildings at the end. And there wasn't the hint of like, I'm going to kill you. He was like almost sad and kind of like for lowering and like there wasn't, there wasn't like any intimidation. And even with like when he was ripping the car off the door, off the car to get to Kate, Bishop's mom, there wasn't, I didn't feel terrified. She looked terrified that which is great, but like, I didn't feel terrified watching him do it. It just kind of looked like he looked funny.
Speaker 2 00:40:45 I think the biggest evidence that maybe we are in a different, maybe the M c u Daredevil and and Fisk are not the same actually kind of surrounds that and surrounds Echo because she, you know, in, in Hawkeye, uh, Fisk was basically like her dad. Right. She, you know, he raised her, that's all of, you know, he was with her and he cared about her. And I find it very hard to believe that if she was so important to him in, you know, in, in Daredevil, that we wouldn't have seen an appearance of her somehow. So I think because we did not see an appearance of her and, and she, you know, has now appeared, I I don't think they're the same, um, the same iterations of the character.
Speaker 1 00:41:30 That makes sense. I mean, because you're right there is Vanessa's his whole life, right. Um, he gave everything to literally everything to be with her. He like created a whole crime lab out of his house and gave in to whatever she wanted to be with her and she wasn't around and he just kind of, I dunno, he wasn't intimidating. He was not scary. I need scary daredevil. I need scary kink. Get him. Maybe he's gonna be scary again. Come Daredevil born again. Let's hope so.
Speaker 3 00:42:04 Do you consider I patches scary <laugh>?
Speaker 1 00:42:07 Um, is he a pirate?
Speaker 3 00:42:10 That's what I wanted to see.
Speaker 1 00:42:12 I think we're getting the eye patch. I feel like this is happening <laugh> if or when Echo ever comes out, which, you know, we're still waiting on that one. But that's, that's
Speaker 2 00:42:20 Next episode. That's a whole episode. Yeah. That's mm-hmm. S that's, there's a lot to talk about there.
Speaker 1 00:42:25 Anthony, did you feel like he was an effect? He was effective in Hawkeye? I know that like Hawkeye as a show I liked but mm-hmm. <affirmative>, he just kingpin fell a little flat for me.
Speaker 3 00:42:36 I don't think he was that effective. 'cause they do the simple chuckle and what episode two to show him up and then they're like, oh, it's that guy and it's like an angled photo on a cell phone from a security camera. It just felt like a huge disservice to him. And then his introduction, or no, not, I wouldn't say his introduction, but like the conversation he is having with Kate's mom where he is kind of like, no, you can't do this to me. And I'm like, come on man, you're the kingpin. And you're like, oh, I'm gonna be kind and I'm gonna give you a minute to think about this. Like, he would've never said that in any capacity or rewording in the original Netflix series. And so like, I don't know, big, big Down found it interesting that he was able to take a lot of, uh, arrows and just kind of shake them off and get hit by a car <laugh>. But that I feel like falls more in line with the actual kingpin. So that was like the one true plus I could give him in Hawkeye.
Speaker 2 00:43:32 I don't think that Daredevil fans quite got the payoff that maybe they were promised with Kingpin and Hawkeye because I really enjoyed Hawkeye. I just was rewatching it again 'cause I enjoyed it so much. But if you were a Daredevil fan, like there, there was this all this foreshadowing, you know, you mentioned the, the photo, but there was also the Presidential hotel, which if you watch Daredevil, that's pretty freaking important. And that was where this glitzy party is. And you know, your spidey sense should have been tingling if you were a Daredevil fan, if you saw that. And then like nothing happened. It was, he was in the back of a restaurant in a Hawaiian shirt. So that was not satisfying.
Speaker 1 00:44:15 And he almost seemed desperate. Like there was like this desperation to him a little bit, which could play into the, he's lost all his power. He came back with a snap. But he was, you know, in the Daredevil series, he's very calm and collected. Like even when he, and I think that's what makes him so scary is that even when he's doing these horrible things, he's just so calm and he doesn't let people rle him. And this one, he let you know, Eleanor Bishop rle him quite a bit and Kate got on his nerves. And even even Maya, you know, Maya, his, his adaptive daughter was annoying him and he was just getting so bothered. And so like everything's falling apart. And I, it just feels like there was not a lot of payoff, like you said, ILA, there wasn't a lot of payoff for this character. But then switching to She Hawk, we had a reintroduction of actual Daredevil. Like he wasn't just Matt Murdoch, he was Daredevil and he was in a new suit. What did we, what did we like about that? Did we like that? Did we not like that?
Speaker 3 00:45:15 I love the suit 'cause it's a callback to a really, really, really, really old daredevil. Like very beginning. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and I like, I thought it looked good. Yeah. In the dark as well. Like, 'cause you know, we had a little, we first see it, it's dark as hell. You can't really make it out. And then the headlights kind of like shine up and give you the yellow, but then in that finale you get to actually see the suit itself. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and I liked it. Um, and, and the horns finally like some nice effective horns that stick out that are subtle, just like the ones you would see in the comics. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, as much as I did enjoy the introduction of Daredevil, I really liked the Matt Murdoch bits though because one thing I always felt shortchange by in the original series is that we didn't get that much of Matt being a lawyer.
Speaker 3 00:46:04 And then when he shows up, boom, he can immediately tell, oh, something's up. Just by a sense of smell. 'cause they, they didn't use it that much in the Netflix series. I was happy to see them do that where he knew he, he like had a little smirk like I know I won this 'cause that's mad. He is a little cocky 'cause he knows these things. He knows when he is presenting and arguing in court that he is not gonna go in there just to throw and hope something works like mm-hmm. So for him to go in there, win the case within a couple minutes, which is brilliant. And then to follow up, he does what Matt does and seduce his Jen at the bar right after that.
Speaker 1 00:46:43 I have to say about the suit specifically love the suit. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I liked the fact that it was reminiscent of the Dardo daredevil suit from the series, but it was different with the different colors. And when, you know, for a long time now we were talking about, you know, people were hinting about the yellow suit and I was like, oh, this is gonna look so cheesy. How is this gonna work? It worked and it was really, really cool looking and I hope we get to see this more again because I know with the Marvel studio shows on Disney plus, we go through suits like we're going through Candy <laugh>. Um, I guess it's not just the shows, but it's all, it's everything with Marvel. We go through Suits a lot. But that was just a really cool suit. I agree with you Anthony too. The fact that we got to see him be that Murdoch and we got to see him having fun, which is not something we got to see a lot of because he was on such a mission in Daredevil. He was trying to take down this whole crime organization and he actually was having fun fighting with she Hawk and being a lawyer. And there was, it was just like really refreshing to see this different side of him and I think I liked it more. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 00:47:49 <affirmative>,
Speaker 1 00:47:49 Which maybe is a hot take.
Speaker 2 00:47:51 He didn't have a lot of the character didn't have a lot of joy in Daredevil. It was just kind of like misery. Which it, you know, there were some moments with Foggy that, that were joyous. But it, I really, I agree with you. I really appreciated the fact that he seemed the character was having fun in Daredevil and we got to see that or in, uh, she hawk and we got to see that, um, that other side of him. And as far as the suit, I thought it was a really cool suit. It, it's very hard, uh, to top, in my opinion, the Black mask and the black outfit. Sure. And I know that's not the daredevil suit, but that's just like personal, personal feelings. Um, I would be cool if that returned for the next, uh, sure. Daredevil series <laugh>. Um, I think that, you know, he, the lighter side was great and you know, the, the sense of smell that you mentioned, just those other, um, those other like powers I guess to mm-hmm. <affirmative> to call them something that were, that were heightened the other senses. It was kind of cool to see them in action.
Speaker 1 00:48:54 Correct me if I'm wrong, there was a run of comics where he did have the black suit or like a black suit like that. I, in fact, they're using it for Spider-Man uh, freshman year. Correct?
Speaker 3 00:49:05 Yes.
Speaker 1 00:49:06 Okay. Um, so it would be cool to see that again because that was such an iconic part of him. But did she, Hulk did his, did his part in she Hlk make you excited for more?
Speaker 3 00:49:20 Absolutely. Mm-hmm. I was already excited about him coming back, but like to see him practice law that made me happy. And then seeing him follow up by being cocky Matt Murdoch and then third follow up still kicking ass like he always did. 'cause he was having a good time in that compound.
Speaker 1 00:49:34 Absolutely. I think that it was really exciting to have him back and I cannot wait for more and I cannot wait to discuss his future and what comes in a in episode soon. But unfortunately we are running out of time, so we'd like to continue this conversation. Check us
[email protected] where you can find us on Twitter or other social medias at my Cosmic circus. Uh, thank you again so much for tuning into the cosmic circle. I'm Brian Kitson and you can find me on Twitter at kitson 3 0 1 Aila. Anthony, thank you so much for joining me today. Uh, before we let everybody go, can you tell us where they can find you?
Speaker 2 00:50:10 Yeah, you can find my writing at the, the website like, like you mentioned. And I'm on Twitter at T U l I n Rights.
Speaker 1 00:50:17 Anthony,
Speaker 3 00:50:18 You can find me at rodo. I'll be retweeting this as I always do. <laugh>,
Speaker 1 00:50:25 We love having you both on here. I cannot wait to come back for part two where we talk about, uh, dare double's future and what's gonna come in the M C U with this character. Thank you again everybody for tuning in. Can't wait to have our next trip to the Cosmos together. Take care.
Speaker 4 00:50:39 Bye.
