Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 <silence>
Speaker 1 00:00:17 Hello, cosmic friends. Welcome to part two of our Daredevil podcast. My name's Isla Ruby and I'm hosting our friendly neighborhood chat about the future of Daredevil in the M C U. I'm joined here by Brian Kitson and Anthony Flagg. Welcome.
Speaker 2 00:00:31 Hey, this is Brian. I'm so excited to be here again, once you know with both of you. Uh, how's it going?
Speaker 3 00:00:38 It's going all right. It's Anthony, uh, talking about my favorite character in Marvel, some daredevil. Let's do it.
Speaker 1 00:00:45 I think it's gonna be a great discussion. So fair warning to listeners. There's gonna be heavy speculation and maybe, maybe some mild spoilers ahead. So just be aware if you're listening. Um, so let's just start. This is what we know. We know that Daredevil Born Again is coming soon. There are gonna be 18 episodes and it's filming soon, right? It's filming next month in New York. Um, I think I saw February to December. What are your thoughts on that, guys? 'cause I think 18 episodes is a lot to talk about.
Speaker 2 00:01:20 18 episodes was, I was a little shocked when we first got the announcement just because it was so, it was so much more than we've had up to this point. You know, we've had six episodes and that was kind of the standard. And then we had nine episodes for Wand Vission, and, um, by the time she Hawk rolled around, we had the announcement of Daredevil. But it was just a huge change. And I'm here for it because I feel like out of all of the superheroes to do this for the street level ones make the most sense. You know, they're the, the down to earth saving in New York. He's not gonna take a lot of cgi I, so you can have more of those episodes 'cause the budget's gonna go a lot farther. Um, I'm here for it. I think that it, it's totally gonna be awesome. It just also depends on what kind of story we're gonna get from it. So I guess that's remains to be seen a little bit.
Speaker 3 00:02:14 Yeah, I've been thinking about it. I'm still quite surprised that they went with 18 episodes from the get go. You'd think like oh 12 or something. But going past that now, what I was thinking about is, are these just gonna be 18, you know, half hour episodes a little bit shorter, which I'm fine with. Um, but, and I haven't heard anything either way on, on where they're going with that. So I like the length of it. Um, could give us a good chance to introduce a lot of characters old and new, um, without it like being too shoehorned in every week or like with 18 episodes, you can kind of stretch that out. So I'm excited for it.
Speaker 1 00:02:53 Anthony, I'm really glad you mentioned the length of the episodes because I, I hope that it's not just 30 minutes. I felt like, so she, Hulk had nine episodes and I think that's, you know, I guess more than we've had so far for anything. But they were so short and I just wanted more. And I feel like I say this every single time we discuss, you know, Marvel TV shows. I just want more of the characters and more of the episodes. But I really hope with Daredevil that we get, you know, like a standard TV episode, you know, 42, 44 minutes. Um, you know, that that traditional structure that we don't seem to have very much anymore. Um, and I also think that, I'm really glad that you mentioned, um, characters and people returning and people coming in because I think that's, there's a lot to talk about for, you know, for us there because, so with Daredevil, he has his, his merry band of friends. So let's just cut right to it. Do we think that Karen and Fog are returning? You know, are we gonna see these characters in the new Daredevil or maybe old Daredevil? I don't know.
Speaker 2 00:04:00 You know, right before I answer that question, 'cause it's a, it's a fantastic question. It never crossed my mind to think that these might be half hour episodes. And I think that part of me was just like ingrained to think that Daredevil's an our show because Netflix did that so well. And so my mind was a little boggled when Anthony said that and I was like, oh my God, that that is a possibility. Like that. A hundred percent never thought of that. So I put a, I put a star next to that on my notes. <laugh>. Uh, that being said, I think carrying foggy issue in I, at this point, I can't see them not bringing them back.
Speaker 2 00:04:37 Fog is, you know, starting with foggy, foggy is such an integral part of the, the party of the, of the business, of the friendship that you can't have him not be with Matt Murdoch. I hope they got the same actor back. Uh, that I guess is to, remains to be seen. But I do think that there is, you don't have a Daredevil show unless you bring back Harry a foggy 'cause they're so important to that storyline. I would love to see more of Karen having the interactions in the world that, you know, she was kind of the connected to shoe through a lot of the Marvel Netflix shows. So I think to see some of that again at the street level, maybe her doing pieces on like Miss Marvel or Spider-Man, I think that that is going to be, is gonna elevate the show. So a hundred percent I think they're back.
Speaker 1 00:05:25 I just wanna jump in real quick before, uh, before Anthony talks because you know, you said that you had never thought about being 30 minute episodes. Well I had never thought about foggy being recast until you just mentioned that everything I thought about had been Karen being recast. So I feel like my mind is blown there and I'm like reeling and spinning, trying to think of, well who could play foggy if it's not Elvin Hanssen? So, you know, it's a mind blowing conversation. <laugh>
Speaker 2 00:05:50 Though, you know, going off of that, why did you think that maybe Karen would be recast and not foggy? Because for me it was the other way around.
Speaker 1 00:05:57 Oh, see, I feel like there's been so much speculation online and I don't know if that's just Twitter doing what Twitter does. And I think Debra and Wall, who played Karen, um, said that she hadn't been contacted by Marvel yet. But, you know, actors lie all the time. So that could be just a misdirection. So, so there's some surprise there. Um, but it was just kind of going off of that. So my mind is blown <laugh>,
Speaker 2 00:06:25 Someone rolled the counter for two. This episode so far, <laugh> two miles blown <laugh>. Go ahead Anthony.
Speaker 3 00:06:32 Oh, the only thing I was gonna say is I'm, I feel certain that they're gonna keep foggy as far as Karen Paige. I'm gonna go a little bit against it and say that they told a good story with her, but they don't need her moving forward. Could she come back later on? Eventually, yes, but I think from the get go they may just to get the ball rolling, they'll operate without Karen Paige. And then once they work out a deal with her or something, they bring her back into the fold. Um,
Speaker 2 00:07:00 But I feel like you had a question, but you I think going off of I was gonna say like going off of that though, you know, I think that we get so used to, to actors and actresses lying. I mean, uh, she Hawk Tatiana and Ms. Loy, she lied until like the day she walked on stage. Like she was like, no, but I'm not in She Hulk. So I feel like she could easily be misdirecting, um, and saying she's not gonna come back to Daredevil.
Speaker 1 00:07:24 It's almost as if, sorry. It's almost as if their job is to kind of pretend that they're some, you know, telling truth or not telling the truth and they're really good at it to get that job.
Speaker 3 00:07:36 Like Andrew Garfield.
Speaker 1 00:07:39 Andrew Garfield is the best example of that.
Speaker 2 00:07:43 <laugh>, uh, Tom Holland is not.
Speaker 3 00:07:45 No, he is not. No, I, I know, I just think with Karen Page though, it's like she doesn't have to come back immediately. Can she guess? That's what I'm saying. Like, but I feel like you need foggy. You kind of always need that mm-hmm. Buddy dynamic for him. Sure. You don't absolutely need Karen. 'cause we had, you know, Matt and she hooked it fine without, he had a female to play off of. We know there's a casting for a lead that's a romantic interest for him. So we'll have somebody to play off of. You know, it doesn't always have to be Karen.
Speaker 1 00:08:11 I think it's really hard in a TV show when your character doesn't have like your main character doesn't have an ally almost where there's someone that, you know, he doesn't have to play off of. Um, and I think if it's not Karen, then it definitely needs to be foggy. Like if you look at Arrow, there was somebody to play off of. If you look at it, it's always more fun when you have that thing where you can bounce people off of or bounce ideas off of and just have that back and forth. It makes for a more interesting show.
Speaker 2 00:08:39 I mean that's been present in every Marvel project. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> go, you know, since its inception we've had Tony Stark in Roadie, we've had Captain America and he had Bucky First and then it was Sam Wilson. And even in the newer stuff, you know, miss Marvel had great banter with two buddies. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and Spider-Man head Ned. And there are all of these like, you don't need, I mean Anthony, you're right, you don't need to have a love interest. You do need to have that comradery and you can have love interest in anybody. It doesn't need to be Karen, but I'd love to see her in the world somewhere. Like have a place somewhere. Because I think that she is such an interesting character and she had such an interesting arc, which we talked about in the first episode, that, uh, it's really hard to not see her play some kind of part in this eventually. So
Speaker 3 00:09:25 I'd say, from what I've read, what, what I've read recently of Daredevil is um, at one point she takes off and she becomes a radio DJ host <laugh> on the West coast. So like, she could still be doing something but just kinda like over there. But hey, that might be a good reason for him to go to la
Speaker 1 00:09:42 The many lives West Coast Avengers. It kind of seems like we could be building to that in some some ways, but I know that's another podcast discussion for us along the line. We're gonna have so many of them at this point. <laugh>,
Speaker 2 00:09:56 I'm just adding it to the list at this point.
Speaker 1 00:09:59 So I know. So if Karen, you know, there's been a lot of talk about continuity and where this Daredevil is gonna pick off pick up. And I think maybe this is kind of a great way into that because, you know, if, if Karen isn't in there or if Matt has kind of moved on from Karen, you know, we saw kind of the repercussions in She Hulk, right? He just had, you know, he had a relationship with she Hulk. And I think that's kind of interesting, um, for the Daredevil show moving forward, you know, what do you guys think about she Huk and the future of, of she Huk and Daredevil?
Speaker 2 00:10:34 I think what's interesting about She Huk is that while it was the show itself was very divisive, um, that you couldn't help Beloved her as a character. And I guess some people would argue that one, but I loved her as a character <laugh>. And I think that this would be the perfect way to kind of show her in the wider M C U because her show was so removed from, you know, we, yes, we had Bruce Banner and we had some of those connective tissues and stuff, but like it was, you know, breaking forth walls and we're going into Disney Plus and we're coming into the real world. And like, there's all of these different things that were so pushing, they pushed the boundaries quite far that I think that if you put her in a show like Daredevil that people are gonna tune in for 'cause they're excited about Daredevil coming back, excited about her, you know, him returning, you're going to see how she, how she's living in their world.
Speaker 2 00:11:26 And while it's not gonna always be fourth wall breaks and it's not gonna be so ridiculous and it's not gonna be that comedy per se, um, it might be funny, but I think, so having her in there is a really good way to kinda show people like, this is what it could be like and this is what it's gonna be like for the M C U and you don't have to enjoy her show to have her be a bigger part in this world. And she still fits and she's, she's good for that. And I, I think that would be really beneficial for her. Maybe her character and the people that you, you know, were so against her in her show.
Speaker 1 00:11:55 I think I agree with you on the comedy that that's, you know, very different than a lot of what the M C U has done. But I don't know if I agree that she, Hulk was, you know, told as, as removed from the M C U as maybe other things have been because you had Saka, you had um, you had aliens, you had Hulk, you had maybe Wolverine, if you had the Celestials like there, it felt like there were a lot of mc things, even if they maybe didn't matter big for the plot. So I don't know, I think, I think it could be more connected than maybe Daredevil moving forward.
Speaker 2 00:12:30 Oh, you think so?
Speaker 1 00:12:32 I dunno, <laugh>,
Speaker 2 00:12:33 Oh, I just, again, my mind is blown. I guess I didn't think of it being more connected than Daredevil, you know, so that's interesting that you say that
Speaker 1 00:12:40 Daredevil's so street level, right? It felt like all this stuff happened kind of in this insulated world of Hell's Kitchen. Um, you know, with, there are mentions of, of the blip before and I guess the, the event, I'm sorry, not the blip before and, and Daredevil the show, but like, I don't necessarily think you even need to have the rest of the M C U for Daredevil born again to be successful. It's like moon night in that way.
Speaker 2 00:13:06 No, that makes sense. Anthony, what do you think?
Speaker 3 00:13:12 I agree. I think what really drove people in Daredevil originally on Netflix was the story it told with the characters that it had, you know, it was just more of a surprise in season two when Punisher showed up. You're like, oh yeah, hey, now we're crossing over a little bit mm-hmm. <affirmative> and you know, seeing Clear Temple from Luke Cage and just other things carrying over. So I don't
Speaker 2 00:13:31 Think it really wasn't own in the world.
Speaker 3 00:13:33 Yeah. Yeah. So I don't think that the M C U show really needs to have that many people carried over into it. Are we gonna see people? Definitely. It's an M C U show. It's gonna happen one way or another and it feels like it'll be something a little bit less orthodox. Kinda like, um, like Trevor in Chong Chi, just like, oh hey, yeah, you, you exist on, you know, M C U, like it makes sense, you would show up here, you need, you know, legal help, consultation, whatever. And you live in New York City. Of course. So, yeah.
Speaker 1 00:14:03 Well, one thing that we know, and one, one person that we know is going to be back is Vincent Donofrio is Fisk, and he's already been back in Hawkeye mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And he was very different in Hawkeye. And I know we touched on this on the last podcast, but, um, like what do you guys think about his character moving forward? What are you to see, you know, I know Red you have quite an extensive knowledge of the comics and um, maybe have some thoughts on, you know, storylines we could see with him the, from the comics.
Speaker 3 00:14:34 Yes. Well the, the main one, and since it's been rumored going around, is that he's gonna run for Mayor and Win, which he does in the comics. And it's funny 'cause at first it's like, oh, he didn't cheat, but turns out he, he really did cheat and Matt's kind of working on proving that. So with an 18 episode season, that could be a good storyline to just use as a base, just kind of for the background of what's going on. It's, it's just going up against Fisk who's now mayor. Um, Fisk is capable, you know, he may be down, but he is not out completely. Mm-hmm. And Hawkeye, he didn't seem like he was at his best, but still with the way that Clint Barton reacted, he's like, well that's the guy I've been worried about. Goes to show that there's still something, there's still a level of menace that kingpin poses. So, um, why exactly he's a menace that Clint Barton. That's what I wanna find out. And I feel like we may get that chance to explore it a little bit and see how he got involved in, in kind of like, uh, his involvement with Echo as well. So I know not everybody was the biggest fan of how he got brought over in, into Hawkeye, but I think where he gets to be more fleshed out rather than like 20 minutes, we'll we'll get a lot better con content out of him.
Speaker 2 00:15:55 You know, I'm, I'm very excited to see where his character goes because while his appearance and uh, Hawkeye wasn't necessarily my favorite representation of him, I think that season one and season three of Daredevil did it best. I think that there was this level of scary and I think that he was kind of missing that scary Hawkeye, which I mentioned last time. Um, I think that it could easily be there. I constantly go back to, and this is probably pulling real deep for some people, but there was a prequel novel of the Spider-Man game for PlayStation that came out years ago. And Kingpin is the villain of that story. And he, he actually has, um, echo doing all his work in there. And I actually did not know Echo at that point. And so I didn't even connect that Echo was the same as Echo and Hawkeye until way after the show.
Speaker 2 00:16:47 And then I was like, oh my God, I read that novel years ago. But he was just this like master manipulator. He, you know, he was running for office, he was having his business and he wanted nobody to know he was doing this, these actions. And so he was just pulling these strings like a puppet master. And that was so diabolical and that was like so wicked. And like that was what was really scary when I thought about the character. And that's what I want to hopefully see for him is like this just complete ma like almost like a Lex Luther mastermind to him too. Because not only is he the big Hawking guy that's super muscular and potentially has super strength and, but he's also got this mind that never stops thinking mm-hmm. <affirmative> and he knows how to control people and that is what makes him scary.
Speaker 1 00:17:38 Yeah. His, his scariness doesn't come from superpowers and doesn't come from space. You know, his scariness is because he is that master manipulator and how he kind kind of moves people as pieces to do what he wants. And I think that's, I think it's interesting that you mentioned Hawkeye and why Hawkeye was so, um, worried about him because I don't think that's something that was really addressed at all. And I think there's, there's some relationship there between um, Eleanor Bishop and Fisk too that wasn't totally explained. And I know we talked about this a little bit in the pre-show and I'm just, you know, so curious as to what, what the deal is that that Fisk and Bishop made, because I think that could be key to unraveling how it all works in the M c.
Speaker 3 00:18:21 I just re-watched talk, I actually, before we got on this call, I will say that, so it, I mean they kind of do directly address it. Apparently Mr. Bishop owed Fisk a lot of money mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but it feels like at that point it becomes a little bit more than money. It's just the operations and kinda instilling the fear. But you know, like that must be a lot of money if you know what 10 years on, still haven't paid it back. Or I guess maybe the money's just so good at laundering that she can't help but just continue doing it. But finally called it quits when Kingpin started putting, you know, Kate Kate's life in danger. So
Speaker 1 00:19:03 Yeah. 'cause again, he doesn't seem that scary in Hawkeye. You know, he's sitting, he is got his Hawaiian shirt in a restaurant and for Eleanor to be scared of him, that seems, I I just feel like there's something that has to be more sinister there about him.
Speaker 3 00:19:16 Have you seen the deleted scene?
Speaker 1 00:19:19 I have not.
Speaker 3 00:19:20 So there is a deleted scene where they're sitting at a table and like he's like elevated and she's lowered. So he is like looking down at her and having a conversation. They never included it. Had they put that, it would've definitely made him seen him a little bit more sinister.
Speaker 1 00:19:32 Oh.
Speaker 3 00:19:33 But you can literally see like, he's like raised up and she's even lowered like, like the table comes up to like her here and to him it's like down below 'cause they've got him boosted and it would've been a cool shot that would
Speaker 2 00:19:45 Show That would've been so
Speaker 3 00:19:46 Cool. Exactly. It would've been a cool shot to have to show how he is. But no, they, they instead put them level and he's sitting in the back of a restaurant like you were saying and it just seems so weak.
Speaker 2 00:19:56 <laugh>.
Speaker 2 00:19:59 Yeah, there was definitely a level of weakness that it felt comical, but like not in a good way. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> of like, I still enjoyed seeing him. The fight scene in the toy shop was super awesome. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But it felt like we're aiming the show for like families and children and like, this is not the kingpin from the mature world that we are expecting. And so I feel like in that way maybe my, my thoughts about it were like I had to like stop and kind of reflect on it after and be like, okay, it's not that this is disappointing, it was just a different, and that he can still be that scary man when it's a different situation. Haw. I was about a young, a young avenger becoming an, you know, a hero and so that fits better with the world that she's from.
Speaker 1 00:20:44 No, I think it's interesting that you pointed out, um, kind of guiding it towards families and maybe, um, maybe not so much mature audiences, because I know that's something that's come up a lot in discussing the new Daredevil. Um, I think Charlie Cox in an interview recently said it won't be quite as bloody as it was before. Or I guess it won't be quite as mature, but it seems like things will be different. You know, what are your thoughts on that? Is it going to be, are, are fans gonna be happy with it, I guess? And that granted this is, sorry, granted this is, you know, nothing has been shot yet. This is all speculation. This is, you know
Speaker 2 00:21:24 Right. I think that sometimes people mistake like mature for the fact that like, it has to be gory. I think that people think that like if you're going to see like a mature film or a mature show, it has to be like saw all the time. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and I, I've heard this kind of complaint for Blade coming up, you know, that how can you do Blade and be PG 13? And I always like to point out that one of the scariest horror movies is Insidious and it's a PG 13 movie. Like you can be scary, you can be adult and you don't have to be mature. You can take out the sex, you can take out the blood, but you can still have the action, you can still have the fighting. And I think that's what we have to focus on. And I think people also forget too that like we did have a Daredevil movie that was PG 13, whether you liked it or not is remains to be seen.
Speaker 2 00:22:11 Even though I hear the director's cuts highly superior. But like there is a character that we've had on screen that isn't like this, you know, and the comics having read a few, I haven't read as many as Anthony, so maybe he has a better look at this. They're not necessarily horribly, horribly bloody, they are very action packed. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, there's a lot of fighting, a lot of kicking, a lot of, a lot of trying to like take down the bad guy, but like, it's not like just pages are getting splattered with blood. Like a Punisher comic book <laugh>. Would you, would you say that's correct, Anthony?
Speaker 3 00:22:45 That's correct. Yeah, that's correct. Um, looking back, I was actually thinking to one of the recent runs where they introduced a character named Muse and he is a serial killer who likes to use his victims as part of the art.
Speaker 1 00:22:58 Oh, yep.
Speaker 3 00:22:59 Yeah. Yeah. So, but it's not, but even then, none of the panels I remember are like super strong or anything. It's just more of like what the content is. It's like, oh, I made something using their guts or something. It's more the, the mental image than the actual image that's shown on the panel. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 00:23:18 <affirmative>. And you know, I think that sometimes the Netflix defenders verse sometimes took it a little too far mm-hmm. <affirmative> and maybe this might, but there's a scene that always sticks out to me from the, the first season of Jessica Jones and I'm not gonna get into it, but it involves her walking into an apartment and there's definitely a really gory scene in a kitchen. And that really stuck out to me. I still think of that scene sometimes of like, did I need to see what just what I just saw, like did, like was could I know that the bad guy was bad without having to see that? And the answer is probably not. 'cause there's other ways to allude to that. And I think that by ha you can change Daredevil to be something that's more, I don't wanna say family friendly, but like more the less gory and you're going to get more people to actually probably tune in and engage with it.
Speaker 3 00:24:11 Look at talking to the Winter Soldier mm-hmm. <affirmative> with the, with the shield scene. Yes. Impactful will actually show with the chest or anything.
Speaker 1 00:24:18 I think sometimes too that, um, that shows sometimes use Gore as a crutch almost. And you know, they use it as a crutch instead of character development instead of story. And I think that, you know, kind of having these parameters to play with, like you can't show certain things kind of, um, maybe can make for more creative and more interesting storytelling. So I'm, I'm personally a little bit, um, excited to see what they do with that. And I, I am, you know, I I think Moon Night is a really good example of that because I know the comics are, you know, quite um, I guess quite bloody and quite different than Yeah. Red's kind of shaking his hand, so I,
Speaker 3 00:24:56 It's not bad. I know that brutal <laugh>, there are some, but like the ones that inspired the show, not so much.
Speaker 1 00:25:02 Yeah. Well I know, I know it was something that people talked about a lot and you know, some people, there was a lot of discussion about the Goriness of Moon Night, so I think, I mean, I was fine with Moon Night, so I'm sure if, if, if they do something similar I would be fine with that for Daredevil,
Speaker 2 00:25:19 Right? There is a reality where, where a less gory, more moonish daredevil would exist. So I think like, I think like this is what they're probably trying to aim for. I think that you're gonna see more of it, like if we get like a Midnight Suns or I think that maybe even the Rumored Strange Academy would be pushing the boundary of like horror without being, you know, I think even Dr. Strange and the Multiverse Madness was pushing the boundaries of horror without being a horror film. Like I think there's ways that you can do it to keep everybody, the whole family involved without complete alienating a certain subset because it's so mature. The parents would be like, eh, I don't think my child should watch this
Speaker 1 00:26:01 Now. You know, we've, we talked about Foggy and Karen and there's so much to talk about, but I wanna talk a little bit about, um, maybe some of the new people joining the cast because it seems like every couple weeks there's a new article and deadline about, you know, such and such actor joining mm-hmm joining Daredevil. And I imagine as we get closer to filming, um, there's gonna be even more of it. You, you know, we're recording this right now, it's January. Um, Brian and Anthony are missing the last of us and, and having this discussion so you can kind of place it in time, um, in February we're gonna find out more people. But you know, I guess the biggest name so far has been Michael Gandolfini. And I'm curious to know what you guys think. Um, you know, he was most recently in I guess the Sopranos prequel, the Many Saints of Newark, um, with John Bernthal, which is interesting to moving forward with Daredevil. And I'm just curious as to what you think his role is gonna be.
Speaker 2 00:26:58 You know, I didn't have any clue as to who he is gonna play. And it wasn't actually until I talked to Anthony and Anthony was a hundred percent like, yeah, I think this might be King Pin's son. And I was like, kingpin has a son. Like I ha no, I, again, I had no idea ha I have not done the deep dive into Daredevil. I apparently should have <laugh>, but um, I think that if that is true to who he's gonna be, that is like a great role because he reminds me of like a mobster son. I mean like, I've never watched The Sopranos, it's about a mob, right? Like yes
Speaker 1 00:27:31 <laugh>,
Speaker 2 00:27:31 So like that fits the bill. His dad played the main character on that. So I think that it makes sense that he'd probably be something along the lines of like a kingpin son or potentially another rival kingpin that wants to take up the role. But I think that the first shoe really fits. And so I hope that that's what it is.
Speaker 3 00:27:51 That's my guess too. I mean it's you you got me <laugh>
Speaker 2 00:27:56 Close, the books we're done. No <laugh>. Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:27:59 The only thing I would say is this leads into my theory is is that there was two castings and it was two love interests, one for Kingpin and one for Matt. Now the love interest for Kingpin I think has a slight chance of being the mother of this son possibly. She doesn't have to be, I don't, I don't know how they're treating the whole Vanessa thing if, if she's gonna exist or not, if she's coming back or not. If they're recasting her, I have no idea. I'm just gonna assume that no this is somebody new or somebody in his past that's coming back to play a new original character and she could potentially be the mother.
Speaker 2 00:28:40 Do you think it's weird that they are potentially like they could potentially write out Vanessa? 'cause I feel like that was such like a drive and motivating factor for all of Daredevil. And I guess that would maybe speak to maybe the continuity of the show. 'cause like that was mm-hmm. Fisk's role, the, like that was his motivation for three seasons was Vanessa and now to just like have another love interest just feels I don't, I want cheap. Well
Speaker 1 00:29:07 It would be a huge difference. This is,
Speaker 3 00:29:09 This is the second part of my theory is that this is kingpin's revenge for what happened in the Netflix show. And so he's going after Matt to reveal using his power as as mayor to try and reveal who he is. Because in the comics when he becomes mayor, he basically out allow Outlaws superheroes. It doesn't go too well for him. Um, but like he's trying to use that power to force things out and then, you know, force the courts where he could put him in a position where he can't act against him.
Speaker 1 00:29:42 Sure. I would, I'm a little bit sad at the potential, um, I guess removal, we, we don't know anything about Recasting of Vanessa just 'cause I really like, um, eyelids or I thought she was kind of like she was evil that, you know, as Vanessa and Oh yeah. You know, we didn't really get that revealed kind of until, um, later in the season and I thought that was done really masterfully and I just wanna see more of her being evil 'cause I just, I loved that. Um, and so she was on the show, the actress was on the show Moon Haven and it was just canceled. So her schedule is free if they decide to bring her back. Um, so I more a caller. Yeah, exactly. So I'm, I'm in favor of that just because I really like the character and how that was played. Um, so Red, you mentioned castings and you mentioned um, you know, love interests. There were two, I think recent castings, recent cast members, Sandrine Holt and Margarita. Um, I'm totally blanking on our last name. I don't know if you
Speaker 3 00:30:43 LA Eva.
Speaker 1 00:30:44 Yes. And you know, I know you have some theories and thoughts on to who they could play and I just wanna, you know, hear what you think 'cause it's brilliant.
Speaker 3 00:30:53 Yeah. Well I already said the Sandrine halt one. Yes. Playing potentially the f the mother or just a new love interest. But as far as Margarita, I think, I'm not saying she has to be, but she could be a re-imagining of the Hurston McDuffy character from like, uh, the 2014 run, I want to say where Matt moves out to the West Coast practices law there and then starts getting involved with her 'cause she's the da. Um, and then at some point I think she even comes back to New York with him, but she's a very skilled lawyer and, and very determined like someone who can match Matt at his ability when he really wants to show up. Um, the only thing I will say though is as far as from what I've noticed that this Matt in the show in both of 'em hasn't really been like the lawyer, Matt, you'll really get in the comics 'cause he'll really go through links to get things going. Like in the show, I, I haven't seen that drive from him. So I'm hoping that this character kind of spurs him into action and doing a little bit more. So that's, I go ahead.
Speaker 1 00:32:01 Two things about what you just said, because I think the lawyer thing you mentioned is really interesting because I think what those 18 episodes we kind of get a lot more room for for lawyering. And I don't know if that's case of the week or what, but I think that's really a chance for, for Matt to show off his skills there.
Speaker 3 00:32:18 And I thought initially with she-Hulk it'd be like one case every week. So seeing how my prediction is pretty bad, I'm not going to do it here. <laugh>, you know, I I don't think with with they're double, they're really trying to force him to always be in court and not even in the comics. Is he like constantly in a legal battle. Sometimes he's literally just doing either Daredevil stuff or just matte life stuff, you know. Um, but I think with this show more chance of actually seeing him get some court work done,
Speaker 2 00:32:49 You know what's interesting when you say like case of the week is I think that we're all really used to like the procedural mm-hmm. <affirmative> and in fact, uh, quite a few shows that I started to watch recently, all the, they're changing the format a little bit. The one that stands out is a show called Will Trent on a b, c, where like, so far it's been two episodes and it's been kind of focusing on one case for over two episodes and it's kind of spilling over to like the third one. So like I think that like changing the format of having like, you can have like long form cases be part of the show and be him being a lawyer is really, really, really cool. Um, though Anthony, you know, I'm not as familiar with that character. Uh, you said her name Kristen McGuffy.
Speaker 1 00:33:30 McDuffy, right?
Speaker 2 00:33:31 Right. McDuffy. Um, so with her or potentially coming in there, does she become a superhero herself? 'cause I feel like Netflix did that with everybody. Everybody became a superhero? Or does she kind of stay like a foggy, like a like a human, uh, uns superpowered but like part of the team kind of individual in
Speaker 3 00:33:51 The definitely like, like foggy. Um, okay. In a way, you know who, who I think of just personality wise, not as much, but just like determined is, uh, Jimmy Wu just like happy. Yes. But like, but like they wanna get the job done. Like, and they know right from wrong and they'll do what, what's possible. 'cause you know, Jimmy fought back there at the end against the F B I and it's like, wait, hold on. We're, we're kind of being the bad guys here. We need to do the right thing. So she has that, that will to fight against the system.
Speaker 2 00:34:21 Oh, I love that. That's, see and that, that is really cool.
Speaker 3 00:34:24 But it aligns with like Daredevil and how he is mm-hmm. <affirmative> like he works, he toes the line, but he does it because he's working his justice. And that's what I like about Kirsten. She's similar and, and very well parallels Matt.
Speaker 1 00:34:40 I think that's an interesting theory and I think, um, I'm just stuck on Jimmy Liu 'cause you know, it's been so long since Wanda Vision and since we last saw him. And I, I want more of him. Um, I kind of want him in Daredevil too, but maybe you'll see him in the new Antman. I don't know. Um, so, you know, I wanna talk about something you mentioned too because you mentioned, you know, Daredevil was in on the west coast. Um, the new working title for Daredevil is Out the Kitchen. And I read an article, actually a theory by some random guy named Brian No relation to, to Brian at the Cosmic Circus about um mm-hmm <affirmative>, what that working title could mean. And I'm just curious, are we, is this Daredevil going to be totally in New York? Are we gonna see him leave? Are we gonna see him go different places? Um, what are your thoughts?
Speaker 2 00:35:32 So I
Speaker 3 00:35:32 Think I've racking my head over that one. Go ahead Brian. Go ahead.
Speaker 2 00:35:36 I was gonna say, I think that with how we kind of saw him in She Hulk, I think that it's just, I think it kind of set the stage for the fact that this is just not a New York based daredevil that he is going to travel. I know that there's been some, even in the theory that in this article by Brian, he sounds awesome <laugh>. Um, there's some recent stories of him leaving Hell's Kitchen to like travel internationally to like fi to fight the hand. And I think that it, again, I think it brings another depth to the character into the M C U to have this character not just be bound to New York and letting him explore a little bit and getting to see the different sides of him. Uh, so I think that definitely with, especially with the working title, I think he's leaving New York for a little bit. I think you're gonna see him kind of jet set. Um, maybe we're gonna see Daredevil far from home. Who knows
Speaker 1 00:36:34 <laugh>
Speaker 3 00:36:36 <laugh>. That's funny. 'cause at first I was completely convinced that he would be coming outta New York City and was that out the kitchen? But then I thought about that for a little bit and what I came to was a conclusion of it's like, no, he's operating as Daredevil out of the kitchen and just within the kitchen itself. And, and I even mentioned to you guys, I was like, but how the hell has Matt been able to practice in California, if not one of a couple things. One, he is practiced there before or two, he knows somebody. And that's where I was coming up with the Kirsten McDuffy theory that she had her firm and as a friend did him a favor and let him practice so he could, you know, do the case that he did against Jennifer Walters. But no, I think for this one where he's saying out the kitchen, it's like, no, he's operating only out of the kitchen in that, just that adjacent area.
Speaker 2 00:37:26 I didn't think of it that way. Interesting.
Speaker 3 00:37:29 Well, he is gonna have his hands full. You gotta think about it. Kingpin just went blind. He was going on a mural run. Things have kind of been going crazy. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 00:37:38 <affirmative>.
Speaker 3 00:37:39 So yeah, he's gonna have his hands full just, just with Hell's Kitchen. I can't see him doing much more outside of it.
Speaker 2 00:37:49 No, that makes sense.
Speaker 3 00:37:51 In the comics, he did train Echo a little bit so I could see him running to her to go get some extra help because she's already familiar with Fisk, you
Speaker 2 00:37:58 Know.
Speaker 1 00:37:59 No, I'm, I'm glad you mentioned Echo because I, I think there's been some speculation about, um, and I think it's been revealed that Daredevil is gonna be in the new Echo, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, we can talk about that. I think 'cause it's been Yeah. All over the internet. Um, oh yeah.
Speaker 2 00:38:15 Too late now if we can't <laugh>. Yeah,
Speaker 1 00:38:17 <laugh>. So I mean, I did warn you at the beginning of this talk that there may be some mild spoilers. Um, you know, we obviously don't know what's going on with Echo. You know, there's, there's talk, it's been delayed, um, but things keep, the slate keeps getting moved and delayed and, you know, anything is possible. So right now this is just operating on, on our, the latest information that Daredevil will be an echo. Um mm-hmm. Like what do you guys think about that?
Speaker 3 00:38:44 It seems natural and powerful, the course, you know, with, with how they ended of echo's last interaction with Fisk and knowing the history he's already got with Matt, that he would have to go out to her or she would've to reach out to him. But knowing how he's the one that finds things out, it would, it would, you know, lead to that information that Matt's out there looking for Echo. So
Speaker 2 00:39:14 I think that it also show, it makes sense in the fact that like what level we're building here, um, going back to the very early stages of the cosmic circus, Anthony and I actually wrote a series of articles talking about like the different levels of the M C U and one of them was street level and like this is where these stories are really focused on. And Hawkeye, even though he's an Avenger, his story was very street level. Mm-hmm. And that was kind of the kicking off point for the street level M C U now. And even Ms. Marvel doesn't in my head necessarily fit in that world because of her cosmic abilities going to be with the Marvels. Like, but Echo was really kind of this character who, you know, was a great fighter and has in some, in some, um, comics they don't really talk about in this one, but has the power of mimic and could mimic an any, any moves, any actions and even voices.
Speaker 2 00:40:12 Um, so it makes sense that like if we're having this natural progression through the street level, M C U, we would follow, like it would make sense that data level show up there because those two are connected on a, on a level that is different and they do have the connection of Kingpin and in fact neither one of them like kingpin right now. And so is Daredevil looking to team up? Is he looking for someone to help him? Is he looking for answers? I feel like all of this makes like really logical sense for the trajectory of the street level M C U.
Speaker 1 00:40:48 So, you know, I know we're running a little bit, we're we're running pretty close to time, but we, you know, after part one of our podcast we put question, we put it out to Twitter and put it out to Discord saying that if you had questions, if you have things you wanted us to talk about, you know, give 'em to us and we will. And we got a lot of great response. So just gonna kind of go through them now. Um, we already talked, we had a question from Thomas Smith and he, you know, asked about Karen and Foggy and we discussed that, but our very own Victor Victor, um, you know, asked about Mad and his mom and wanted to talk about that, you know, relationship a little bit. Um, because that's something that kind of got explored at season at the end of season three. Um, will we see any more of that? Will we, you know, will they abandon it? What do you guys think?
Speaker 3 00:41:34 Well, my first thought is because that since they're calling it Born again, but Season three kind of already did the storyline up Born again. So I'm having a hard time seeing them redo all that. So I'm gonna go with no.
Speaker 1 00:41:46 Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 00:41:47 Anthony, you took the answer out of my mouth. <laugh>, we, it's interesting that we, we, when they announced Daredevil, it was very interesting to me that they named a Daredevil born again other than the fact that like it's being born again to the M C U because we did that story, that's what season three was when he was being nurse Back to Health and you found out about his mom. And in fact I think that, I feel like all that story's been explored to the point where we don't need to, we, it doesn't make sense anymore to have it. Like we, we, we know what happened to his mom, he's come to terms with it. There was, there was a, season three is about him finding balance and part of that, part of that was finding him ba him finding balance. I think his mom is, there's no need for her in the show anymore. I don't think there, it doesn't add anything to the series
Speaker 1 00:42:33 That's harsh. Goodbye mom. Um, <laugh> and I, I thought that, I thought that was, you know, that was so, um, like those were some really emotional reveals and really, um, you know, his anger there was super palpable and I just thought that was so interesting with the character. Um, we also had an interesting question from somebody who wanted to know if, you know, is it possible that Daredevil could have a child in the M C U and I don't know, you know, if he did in the comics anywhere? Um, curious as to your thoughts. 'cause we've talked a lot about, you know, um, Fisk's Child and you know, potential children. So it seems like maybe interesting
Speaker 3 00:43:17 Matt's not one to strike me to ever settle down and have a family comic wise or otherwise.
Speaker 2 00:43:24 Yeah, I was gonna say it doesn't feel like that is true to the character. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> or the story they're trying to tell. I think that Dr it would add the, it would up the drama, but he is kind of a loner and he wasn't really good with relationships anyways. And so yeah. Gets doesn't take your relationship to have a child, but that doesn't really, I don't know, that doesn't really meh with who he is in the M C U or Daredevil.
Speaker 1 00:43:54 Yeah, I, I agree there. And I also think that, you know, Marvel is kind of exploring the, the secret and Hidden Child thing already with, with Hulk and Bruce Manor, um mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, and that was, you know, I don't think there's a whole lot to explore there besides, you know, presumably what, what storyline they're gonna go down there. Um, so a couple of other questions and you know, the questions surrounded the defenders and Echo and if we're gonna see a new defender. So I'm gonna break that into a couple of parts. Do you guys think we're gonna see anyone from the old defenders come back in this show? Um, do you think there will be a new defenders? Like what do you think?
Speaker 2 00:44:36 I mean is there gonna be a defender <laugh>? Yes. I think that is the, I think that's where we're headed here. Um, as for the old defenders, I do think we're gonna see some of them. And I would love to talk about this on a farther in, in a defender's episode, which I think is, will be coming up. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> if I have, if I have any push here <laugh>. But I think we're gonna see Jessica Jones. I think that we're definitely getting some hints on Instagram from her. I I, it seems like it's pretty rumor now that we're getting punished her back and in fact I'm, the rumor is that he's going to be appearing in, um, Daredevil Born again. I've heard rumors of Colleen Wing coming back as Iron Fist. I think the only one that we're really missing out on is Luke Cage.
Speaker 2 00:45:21 Uh, with, I know that he recently denied it. I don't know if I believe him. We have lots of denials, <laugh> and they don't lead anywhere. As for new ones, I mean, we kind of know the white Tiger's coming and I think that there's tons of room. I'd love to see a Hellcat in there. I'd love to see a, a good Hellcat not the one from like Jessica Jones was good, but like it wouldn't necessarily fit in. I'd like to see maybe that come back. I'm thinking I would love to see even like Hulk and Dr. Strange and all of the original defenders somehow play into this. 'cause I think that there's a world where all of this exists. Um, and I wanna see it all. So yeah, defenders are coming back. I'm, I would, I would eat my hat if it's, they're not <laugh>
Speaker 1 00:46:02 And you just started wearing hats, so we're gonna totally, you know, hold you to that. Um, I think, I think it's great that you mentioned that Kristen Ritter has kind of been hinting at coming back. I think this last week on maybe January 7th, there was like an Instagram post where she was going back into the gym training and she had on a Daredevil shirt and you know, they, people know that everybody watches Instagram like a hawk. So I think it's very possible that, I mean, I I agree. I think it's very possible that she's coming back, especially with that hinting. Uh, what about you Anthony?
Speaker 3 00:46:38 So I think they're gonna be called Heroes for Hire. They're gonna try to rename it as they did with Daredevil. You know, appending Born Again to the end. So that's my first guess. Secondly, I think they're gonna change up the roster a little bit. They're gonna work with the ones that they have and then add some new ones. So yeah. Sounds good. On, on Punisher and Jessica Jones coming back. Don't think Luke Cage is coming back. I don't think Danny Rand is coming back. <laugh>. So they'll work with that and then just kind of rename it, recast it, reboot it and move forward.
Speaker 2 00:47:17 And that makes the like a lot of sense though with how we've had the Avengers, we've kind of had this like, it's evolved. It's not though the same Avengers anymore. And granted we don't really have an Avengers right now, but like in the comics it's always kind of changing. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I think that like, that's the point of like, come on, comic book fans, we have to adapt a little bit here. <laugh>, yes, we wanna see all these characters return, but like we also have to adapt to the fact that like, things change.
Speaker 1 00:47:41 Yeah. And it would be boring just to have the same characters over and over and over because you can, you can only, I mean, I guess you can only do so much with them. Um, and the reality is, you know, actors get older actors change actors maybe don't wanna do that anymore. So, you know, having new characters is, is always interesting. But with that said, I wanna talk about, this wasn't mentioned in the Twitter comments, but I wanna make sure we, we hit this. Um, I wanna talk about Bullseye because we talked about it a little bit on the last podcast and I think we mentioned that we were gonna talk about it more. I just wanna talk, do we think that he's coming back in season thir in in the new season?
Speaker 2 00:48:23 Yes. I think, I think it's inevitable. I think that when you have such a amazing character, an amazing villain, and I think that part of it has to be that we take some of the focus away from Wilson Fisk. 'cause I think he's going to be one of the, the Thanos or like K street level villains. You need some of those other villains and they, they, you can't not have him in a Daredevil show. We just got the hints of him becoming the true <laugh> psychopath at the end of the, the series. We need that. I don't think that there's any, um, there's any way around it. I think he has to come back.
Speaker 3 00:49:04 I think I would like to see him coming back. 'cause you know, as it stands, he's got a bone to pick with both Matt and Kingpin. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So, you know, I, I was thinking about it. I'm like, yeah, I could see Kingpin higher. I'm like, maybe, maybe not, maybe not <laugh>. So it would be interesting to see if his motivation was just to kill them or get his revenge from both of them for what had been going on. So I could see him coming back and I think he'd be a good character to have for it.
Speaker 1 00:49:29 He'd be kind of an interesting agent of chaos to go up against both of them and kind of thwart them, um mm-hmm. <affirmative> whilst they're doing all their, their machinations. Um, is there anything else you guys wanna talk about with this, this upcoming daredevil? Um, anything we haven't talked about that, you know, is kind of burning on your mind?
Speaker 3 00:49:51 I do want an answer of how Matt was able to practice California <laugh>, but I know everyone's tired of hearing me ask that. That's the only thing I just wanna know.
Speaker 2 00:49:59 This is the super girl. This is how the super girl get her ears pierced for, for that, for, for the Daredevil fandom <laugh>. They're not gonna let this go <laugh>. Um, I think that we've hit all the major points for, for Daredevil. I think that, like I said, I, I'm really excited to maybe have a defender's talk because I think that there's a bigger talk here. And while we're running outta time, we really hit a lot of the pieces we need to hit. Um, so I'm, I'm feeling good. I'm feeling good about this episode and I hope that the listeners love it too.
Speaker 1 00:50:32 Well, I think there you have it. I think, um, thank you both for being here and we'll be back. So make sure you tune in again. Um, you know, this has been the, the Cosmic Circle podcast for the cosmic circus.com. And I'm Ila Ruby and you can find me at T U L I n rights on Twitter. Um, how can you find you guys?
Speaker 2 00:50:52 My name's Brian Kitson. You can find me on Twitter at kitson. K i tss o n 3 0 1.
Speaker 3 00:50:58 And I'm Anthony Flagg. You can find me at at rodo underscore.
Speaker 1 00:51:03 All right, well thank you so much for tuning in and I can't wait to talk to you guys again.
Speaker 3 00:51:08 Can't
Speaker 2 00:51:08 Wait. Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 00:51:09 At Man's Next.
Speaker 1 00:51:11 Yes.
