Speaker 0 00:00:00 <silence>
Speaker 1 00:00:17 Hello and welcome to the Cosmic Circle, your friendly neighborhood podcast about fantasy science fiction and superhero entertainment. I'm ala Ruby and I'm here with some phenomenal people. Um, I'm here with Anthony Flagg and Alex of, you know, of our site. So you wanna say hi guys?
Speaker 2 00:00:34 Absolutely. Hi everybody. It's Anthony Flagg. I literally just watched a movie and ended it an hour and a half ago. I'm so ready to talk about it.
Speaker 3 00:00:42 Uh, hi. I am Alex. I saw the movie, uh, yesterday and I saw it during a press release earlier this week. And yeah, likewise. I'm, I'm ready to blow people's minds.
Speaker 1 00:00:54 And the movie we're talking about today is Ant Man. And, you know, we're gonna be talking at man spoilers. There's gonna be theories, there's gonna be a lot of stuff going on. So if you haven't seen the movie yet, stop listening. Go to your, proceed to your nearest movie theater and watch the movie, and then come back and listen. Um,
Speaker 2 00:01:12 And watch it in three D.
Speaker 1 00:01:14 Yeah. So I can't wait to hear your perspective on that. I think you're the only one of us who watched it in three D Um, yep.
Speaker 3 00:01:20 Yeah. Haven't seen it in three D.
Speaker 1 00:01:22 Yeah, I imagine, you know, the, the world looked very different for seeing it in three D. Um, so I wanna talk to you about that. But, um, first let's get your first impressions. Um, Alex, do you wanna kick things off?
Speaker 3 00:01:36 All right, so, out of the three of us, I think I'm the person who enjoyed Antman and the Wasp Quantum meaning the most, the thing is to me, I kind, I, at the same time as the way I say it, I, I, I associate it with me being the tang of this particular trio in this recording conversation. 'cause I see things in a much more advanced scope in terms of how it sets up future projects and how this is going to affect the N C U. And it made me much more excited than it originally was. But as a solo story as well, personally, out of the three films that we've had of Antman so far, to me, this is so far my favorite. It talks about the multiverse. It has sci-fi elements, it had the quantum realm. It had e essentially a lot of stuff that I found enjoyable. Personally, though, there are some things that I particularly did not necessarily enjoy as much as I thought I would, or things that I feel could be improved possibly with time, you know, but, but it, overall, I found it, it was a, it was an entertaining movie with a good amount of potential and teasing lots of things to come.
Speaker 2 00:03:02 And, uh, since my thoughts are still pretty fresh, what I can say was, I don't understand some of the complaints about the visuals. Yes, you can kind of notice the volume on a very few shots, but overall it did look good. Like, at least for the aesthetic and the visual effects that were in the quantum realm, it really made you feel like you were in that smaller scale. Completely different world than anything we've seen in Marvel before. Um, the story, I felt like it was a little bit, you know, cut by the number or color by the numbers, I should say. So it wasn't my favorite, but I still found this film a lot more enjoyable than Aman in the Wasp. And Kang was, was excellent. Not as terrifying as I felt he was gonna be from the get go, but I was very impressed by the technology, the little, just the minor things that he could do just from getting the battle suit. So it made me think about what he could do at his full potential. Were he able to escape the quantum room.
Speaker 1 00:04:05 So I, you know, I think, you know, in our Discord chats and, and just our chats about it so far, I think I'm the person who, you know, maybe is a little bit the most sour on this movie. Um, I enjoyed it. I, I like weird things. I also, um, I thought this movie was really weird and I had no problem with that. I thought I, I tend to like everything. Like I, I liked secret headquarters, I like all sorts of weird things. And this movie just really bothered me, um, on a story-telling level. And I'll get to that in a second. But I thought, I thought the visuals were great. I don't understand the complaints about that. I didn't really notice the volume anymore than, um, like you see Green Screen and, and other TV shows and stuff. It didn't bother me. It's just, you know, you, you gotta do what you gotta do.
Speaker 1 00:04:51 I thought, um, I, I think the comparisons to it being Marvel, star Wars were, were accurate and, you know, that can be both good and bad. Um, and again, the storytelling really bothered me. And I think first of all, we didn't get that character, um, that character development that I think the Antman movies have given us before that I really loved. You know, there was those hints of the relationships and they were supposedly, um, you know, the father-daughter relationship supposedly were like, underpinning this movie. But, you know, it was very hollow. It was on the surface. Um, I, the stuff I most enjoyed was the stuff where they were on earth, where they were, you know, doing their family dinner where they were bailing, um, Cassie out of jail. I thought all of that was really solid. And then we got to the quantum, quantum realm and, you know, it was just super disappointing everything that happened from there for me. Um, I also was really bothered by what they did to Janet in this, and I think they, like, they did our dirty, but we can talk about that later. <laugh>, um, <laugh>. So, you know, we, we talked general impressions, and I kind of wanna know what you guys liked most of all. What, you know, really stood out for you. What was the best for you? Um, what you were most impressed by.
Speaker 3 00:06:10 Who wants to start first? <laugh>,
Speaker 1 00:06:12 How about you, Alex?
Speaker 3 00:06:14 All right, well, for me, what stood out the most? Definitely Kang The Conquer a hundred percent. One of the best things about this entire movie, and honestly, I'm kind of breaking my own rule 'cause I keep calling him Kang the Conqueror. He is not Kang the conqueror, he is just Kang period. And not even Kang, he's Nathaniel. But we're gonna get to that later on when <laugh> when, when we discuss that. Uh, personally I loved, uh, and, and this might sound, some people might agree with me, some people might not. I loved how si how Star Wars it was, I love how it was essentially like, you, you could feel it was very much like a new hope in some moments. Like, you were looking at it and I'm like, bro, this is, this is a new hope. But in Marvel <laugh>,
Speaker 1 00:07:00 It was most Icely and it was such,
Speaker 3 00:07:03 It was, it was Mus Icely. At some point you had the cantina scene when, when Kangs about ready to launch and the Rebels go to fight the empire like <laugh>,
Speaker 3 00:07:15 It was essentially Star Wars. And I was like, I was giddy. 'cause I'm like, well, damn, this is, this is very much Star Wars and it's, and it's Marvel. And I'm like, it's, it's such an amazing ripoff <laugh> that it, it was so, it was so much of a rip off ripoff that was like, you know what? I, I appreciated it and I liked it, but I liked how at the same time they were like delving into the multiverse and there were concepts that they introduced that made me happy that will eventually play on play later on for other projects. That, that also made me happy. And I know not a lot of people are gonna talk about this, but Christophe Beck during like, the score a hundred percent king, that is like, the score for Quantum Mania was incredible. I love how he just elevates himself every time with the theme. And like, he builds on each theme and made it, he, he made it this time so much more impactful with much more sci-fi tones that I kind of remem that reminded me of like Nata Natalie Holt in Loki. And like adding in those sci-fi undertones with like the very powerful Aman bumping theme. It was like, I, I really enjoyed that. So those were like the top picks for me so far. Uh, and, and yeah.
Speaker 2 00:08:39 That's funny you say that because there were times where I thought the main themes sounded like that of Vission mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So just to go, just to show how, so how a variety it is for both ears and people. I really got like some later Wanda theme feelings. Go ahead. Well, you had something.
Speaker 3 00:08:58 No, you did and you were right. And the thing is like, apart from the fact that Christophe Beck did compose the Wand Vission score, he did use it in the, he used it in the Quantum Nexus scene, I believe the song's called Quantum Nexus. And I know that they tried to change it and they're like, it's a probability storm. Yeah. But Christophe Beck gave you away, it's called the Quantum Nexus, and you c and it was, it was the, the end credit theme from Wand Vission. Like it was the, the exact same composition and array. And it's weird 'cause like he's done this before where he's alluded to themes of other projects. Like in Vission, when he was doing the, when he was doing the score, literally the last, uh, the last song of Wanda Visions that plays in the post credit scene of the last episode is like a very sinister Dr.
Speaker 3 00:09:48 Strange theme that was like a, a slow, sinister version of the Dr. Strange theme. And then now, like in Antman and the was Quantum Mania, you have this triumphant esque version of, uh, of, of like the, of Wanda, of the Wanda Visions theme. That kind of reminded me of when Wanda finally accepts her fat as like the Scarlet Witch. And I'm like, this is a key defining moment in the universe. The same thing goes when, when Scott is like doing this to the Quantum Nexus. It's like, yeah, I, I kind of get why he had, why the themes were similar, but, but yeah, I just wanted to get that out there.
Speaker 2 00:10:34 No, of course. Appreciate the input. Um, if you look in our group chat, you'll see I posted a picture of Luke Skywalker and Empire Strikes Back and tell me, does that not look like hope when she's given that outfit by her mom? <laugh>
Speaker 1 00:10:45 <laugh>.
Speaker 3 00:10:46 Because
Speaker 2 00:10:47 All I was thinking, I'm like, oh, you're gonna go fight the 18
Speaker 3 00:10:50 Bro. It was the exact same outfit. That's so cool. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>,
Speaker 2 00:10:53 He was just like, like Red accents. But I was like, that looks like a Star Wars outfit. Like a hundred percent. Like it was like Tuscan Raider Park h
Speaker 3 00:11:02 When Hank when Hank Cope and Jenna go to the Desert, were those not Quantum Tuscan Raiders? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>
Speaker 1 00:11:09 Raid Raiders.
Speaker 2 00:11:10 Absolutely. And they were even walking in a single pile of line <laugh>.
Speaker 1 00:11:14 Yep.
Speaker 3 00:11:15 It was like, I was like, well damn, there's just like, including that aren't thing.
Speaker 1 00:11:19 Everything is Cannon now. Star Wars is now Canon in the universe,
Speaker 2 00:11:25 But it's Alex just
Speaker 3 00:11:26 Saying, I mean, literally
Speaker 2 00:11:27 Feel, yeah. Well I, what I'm waiting for is that moment when they realized that, you know, Samuel Jackson is Mace Windu and everyone's just gonna get really confused. <laugh>, that's what I'm waiting on. They'll be like, oh yeah, that's what TAUs was doing. He was over there acting in Hollywood while I was over here actually running Shield or vice versa, you know,
Speaker 3 00:11:45 <laugh>. It's just, it it's hilarious though. 'cause like there's films reference each other often and it's hilarious 'cause there's actors in those movies from those universes that you think to yourself, if you've seen this movie, you'd recognize this actor then because like, get Tom Holland and Peter Parker in, in, in Captain America's Civil War. Do you guys remember that epi that movie from Star Wars when they're on Haas in they're t and they're tangling the walkie thingies. And I was like, that's that. They're referencing Empire Strikes Back, which means Star Wars was Cannon in the, in the M C U. And then, like I just remembered as well, like the Shazam movie that she, that he goes, I've seen all the Fast and the Furious movies talking to the, uh, Helen Marin who is in the Fast and the Furious movie <laugh> you'd think you'd realize by now. But sure.
Speaker 2 00:12:40 Hey, also think about it this universe al also as a Superman, because you know, Eternals, so
Speaker 3 00:12:47 Not just Superman, but Batman too. They've, they've referenced DC characters before and I'm like, oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 00:12:53 Do, do you think that they have the, the regular Justice or the Zach Snyder or a different one,
Speaker 1 00:12:59 Oh, that's gonna start a thing.
Speaker 2 00:13:00 Those are the hard hitting questions.
Speaker 1 00:13:01 Conversation <laugh>.
Speaker 3 00:13:04 See, that's gonna be, see that's gonna be a, a discussion for another day. 'cause we'll be here for like another hour. So <laugh> let's,
Speaker 1 00:13:10 There's,
Speaker 3 00:13:10 Let's come back Toman
Speaker 1 00:13:11 There, but there, there's a deleted scene somewhere where they're discussing the best Batman and the best, you know, cut of the movies somewhere. Some of the Avengers maybe over Shwarma <laugh>. Um, yeah. So, you know, I, I love what you guys shared, especially about the, you know, Christopher Beck's or Christophe Beck's, um, score. And, you know, I wanna point to three things that I really enjoyed. I, again, two of my things are family relationships and are just character relationships. I loved that family dinner scene, um, where the family meeting, I thought, you know, this is great. I love this. Um, I also loved, um, and this isn't, I loved where, um, Kang and Janet, you know, were kind of commiserating over what they were doing with the, um, you know, trying to recharge that, that quantum like battery type thing, you know, kind. Yeah, exactly. And, and kind of just, I thought that was a really nice scene and that really, um, worked well with him. And I have to mention the Infinite Ant Man's 'cause that was just really weird and fantastic and the Baskin Robbins Antman was just hilarious. So that was funny. Um, so, you know, we've talked about what we liked. Is there anything that didn't rub you guys right in the movie that you didn't like
Speaker 3 00:14:32 How they nerfed Janet <laugh>, how they nerfed Janet? Like listen mm-hmm. <affirmative> like the way they built up Janet in this entire project as like, do you have any idea how many people you've murdered? It's like, holy shit. The idea of Janet Van Dyne being the villain in this mm-hmm. <affirmative>, like holy shit. And then like additionally, I, okay, there's one thing I did wanna mention that I know like not a lot of people know, and I'm gonna, and I'm gonna mention something that was in development for a very long time and they cut it out at the last minute. And that was that. Uh,
Speaker 1 00:15:09 And you didn't like that they cut it out, right?
Speaker 3 00:15:11 That they cut it out and it was, it was gonna be something extremely minor, but, and, and, and I understand why they cut it out 'cause it really wouldn't have made sense for him to have it. But in the scene when, uh, do you remember when the ants are like attacking the Citadel and they're all attacking, and then all of a sudden you see Hank walking down as Kang looks to him? And he's like, oh, okay, so how you doing? And, and like he and Hank is walking down and he's like uniformed in crap in the original and, and for like, the long, and I think they filmed it too. I have to ask him, but I, but it was in the concept for so long and they put it in preview and all this crap Hank was in, in his antman suit. And we were gonna see the original Antman there on the fullest of screens there in like embodiment and then like helmet reveal in a tank. And I was like, oh my God. And we were gonna have that moment of Hank in the suit and we didn't get it. And I was just like, ah, you missed the opportunity. You had Janet in her suit, but you didn't put Hank. It's like, oh God, it was gonna be so badass. But at the same time, I'm like, okay, I get it. I kind of get why they didn't do it because honestly, why would Hank have his suit,
Speaker 2 00:16:30 But why wouldn't he that? I mean, like Cassie had one, Scott had his, why not? Why not?
Speaker 3 00:16:35 Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:16:36 Hank, Hank had a lot of gear too, right? Uh, he, in the previous movies, that was always his thing. He had lots of stuff like toys that could do things and he like didn't have them here. And I thought that was kind of sad and true.
Speaker 3 00:16:49 To be fair though, they were kind of on vacation. He was literally like wearing a plaid shirt. He looked like my dad going on, going on on a fucking Sunday walk <laugh>. Like he, he did not, him and Janet did not plan to go to the quantum room that day. Okay. <laugh>. They literally just got zapped there and they were like, well, this is an inconvenience <laugh>. Besides, they, besides their suits are different. 'cause like Scott and Scott and Hope and, and Cassie, they have nanotech suits now, but like their suits were full on, you know, leather outfits. They don't change with like the, they don't change into nanotechnology that you have to go and put that grab on. And that's, and, and, and, and, and as a person with experience putting on costumes, that takes a while, that takes 20,
Speaker 2 00:17:30 I was gonna say, tell, tell me your cosplay stories that relate to this <laugh>
Speaker 3 00:17:35 Point. 20 to 30 minutes of just trying to put something on. But anyways, <laugh>
Speaker 1 00:17:39 <laugh>,
Speaker 3 00:17:40 But that was, that was something I wanted to get off my chest. It's just like we, we almost had Hank in the Aman outfit and, and the thing was, it was, was gonna make sense because Kang himself was gonna recognize Hank. Like that was a thing they were gonna do. They were gonna recognize Hank as the original an man that he's faced before. But we're gonna get to that eventually later on. And I'm, and it's gonna be a very big discussion about how the multiverse is gonna play out later on. And that's gonna, that's gonna be the spoiler of the day from me for like this podcast. But we're gonna, we're gonna get to that later on
Speaker 1 00:18:16 The first of many. But it sounds like it would've been a moment that, um, is similar to what we saw in Spider-Man with Spider-Man and DA Got Red. How about you? What, you know, what didn't you like?
Speaker 3 00:18:27 Um,
Speaker 2 00:18:27 Maybe just like the cuts between the, the back and forth. I mean, I understand they had to separate the family, but like, I felt like that already kind of happened. It happened in the first Antman a little bit. It happened in the second Antman a little bit where they were kind of operating like, here's, you know, Hank and Hope and, but this one this time is Hank and Janet. And then at the same time, you know, Scott just got stuck with his daughter No Wasp. But I understand for the sake of the story, that's what we were doing here.
Speaker 1 00:18:56 Yeah, and I'm gonna echo echo Alex A. Little bit here. That with Janet, um, I really, what they did to her really upset me because, so she's been in the Quantan realm. She knows how supposedly how horrible, uh, Kang is and the guy that she's faced, um, she didn't warn, you know, her family at all. And that seems really shitty. And I think she totally would've warned them, or, you know, she would've maybe had, there would've been some, um, like some, something bugging her about it. Like, because although Kang, you know, she was out of there, Kang still existed down there, like, it, it was still a potential threat. So I kind of, um, I just think that they totally ruins that with her. We talked a lot about, in the pre-show about Kang, and we talked a lot about, um, you know, theories about him and what, what really happened with him. And I'm gonna kind of throw this to Alex and, you know, see if what you thought about Kang in this movie and what you, you know, or did they accomplish what they needed to do with him?
Speaker 3 00:19:57 I know a lot of people, <laugh> did not like what they did with Kang, mainly because people are like, but he's Kang, he's killed Avengers before. He's killed Thor and, and, and all these characters. And, and, and how can, how can a guy with Ants have beaten him? And that's, that's the point of the story. And they didn't explain it because it was like, if they would've just added that one bit, I feel like it, people would've understood what was going on. But I'm, and and I'm probably gonna explain, I'm, I'll probably explain it now. Screw it. I'll explain it now since we're on the topic. We're on Pang. The Conqueror does not exist yet. Let me explain what I mean by that. So when we're watching this movie, he drops a lot of hints. First and foremost, the fact that when, when he activates the machine, the first, and Janet sees into his head, the first thing he says when she asks who is Kang is his response is who I'm meant to be, right?
Speaker 3 00:21:05 It's not, he doesn't say It's who I am, it's who I was, it's who I'm meant to be, or something along those lines. But I know it's in, it's a sentence that's meant to play into future tense, right? And he explains this as time goes on, like in the movie, uh, he's gonna be going around and he's like, uh, explaining how time isn't linear for him. It's not linear. He's, he's saying it's hard to skip to the end when you know what I know and he knows. The thing is he knows all of the possibilities that play out all of the things that are going to play out everything that's gonna happen. And, and every single possibility that can happen would happen, will ever happen. He knows. And that's why Janet saw what she saw. Everyone is under the pretense that everything that has happened so far is something that Kang has done, and it's possible that he has done it.
Speaker 3 00:22:03 The thing is, he hasn't done this yet. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, this is not Kang the Conquer. This is literally Nathaniel, Nathan, whatever, whatever anyone wants to call him. This is Nathan, before we get into the whole Kang the dilemma or whatever he wants to be now. Um, but this is a Kang that has not been fully developed yet. And the reason why, uh, this movie had to happen, a lot of, they're not gonna talk about this. No one's gonna mention this yet, but I need to mention it now. There was a reason why Antman had to be the one to be, to introduce Kang. I'm doing air quotes here. No one can see it, but I'm doing air quotes, introduce Kang <laugh>. And the reason why is if it was anyone else, we would be stuck in a loop. And I'm gonna explain why. So there's this theory running around that the M C U is essentially a loop.
Speaker 3 00:23:02 Explanation. Multiverse exists. Big Bang Multiverse exists. Time goes on up until the 31st century Nathan is born. Nathan discovers the timelines, discovers the multiverse, all the variants find out about each other, all on multiverse war. He who remains disintegrates the timeline. We already know this from Loki. Then, uh, the time the timeline is singular and it becomes the sacred timeline, which then eventually transforms into what would become the multiverse again, when it breaks out. Here's the thing, when he says they all blur after a while, he means that literally because he's faced every possible version of, of an avenger that has led him to go into this multiverse, war, multiverse, shtick, that kind of begins the loop. And every single one has failed for Captain America, Ironman, all these things. They've all faced him before. And it's confusing because at the same time, Nathaniel has not fought any of these people in at this point, but yes, he has.
Speaker 3 00:24:09 At the same time. It's very confusing. Time is very confusing. I feel like the doctor trying to explain Time <laugh>. But anyway, uh, when, which one Doc proud or just the doctor? The, both, all of them. I feel, I feel like David Tendon <laugh> just, just spanning about, and then like, and, and at the same time just Peter Capaldi trying to explain the Bootstrap paradox. And it's just like, but anyway, like the point of the matter is, the, the important thing that I need people to know is Antman needed to be the one to be, uh, to, to face Kang. Because Kang has never fought Ant-Man before. And, and, and they're, they don't explain it in the movie, but Ant-Man is literally key to what's gonna happen later on down the road because it's going to be what breaks the infinite loop that the M C U has had so far right now.
Speaker 3 00:24:59 There's been an infinite loop of times where Kang has gotten out, has been pushed into the quantum realm, multiverse, war, all this entire thing. It's a loop and it's been looped and it's, there's been different characters. It's been strange, it's been swords. It's the, it's the thing that's been going on except and man is different. Why is Ant-Man different? Because Ant-Man, as you saw Ant-Man had so many different probabilities that could've altered the way this could've gone. So, man, so much so that it was kind of merely impossible for Kang to figure out what it was the way to do it. And the thing is, Scott Lang, for as predictable as he is, is at the same time unpredictable to Kang. Kang didn't know how it was gonna play out. Kang didn't know that. Like, all right, Scott was gonna do this, and it, it, and it was gonna be, it was gonna be something very dramatic.
Speaker 3 00:25:52 And, um, and, and it's essentially what's gonna happen is right now the chain of events that are going to happen from quantum mania down here all the way down until Secret Wars, is what's going to break this loop of the multiverse and essentially put an end to the multiverse loop that is currently happening in the M C U, which I hope will, they will explain it better than I have so far <laugh>. But at least this is kind of like the way that I see it, the way that it's been explained to me before. And I hope that they explain it much better than I did down the road.
Speaker 1 00:26:25 What bumps me with that a little bit is, so, you know, Antman has infinite possibilities, but presumably every other Avenger has infinite possibilities as well. We saw, um, we saw hope, you know, not look at the versions of herself and as she came in to, to save Antman. Um, so I still, I like, I I want to understand why Antman is so special, because, you know, theoretically all the other Avengers also have their, their probabilities. Um, so I'm, I'm looking forward to that as time goes on. Yeah,
Speaker 3 00:26:57 They'll pro and they definitely will explain it down the road and it's going to be something that's, it's gonna be something that's gonna be very important and I may, may possibly drop, uh, if we talk about it later on again and they ask us a question and it leads into Avengers Can Dynasty. I may, I may talk about something that's gonna happen down the road, but for now, what I'm gonna say is that in terms of how the Multiverse multiverse saga is gonna play out, one of the key figures that is going to have a storyline that's gonna be important in Kang Dynasty is gonna be the, the, the, the Langs and the Pan and the Pim Van Dynes, specifically Janet Van Dyne. Because I can assure you that every single version of Kang is particularly pissed with Scott. They're particularly pissed with all of these people. But most of all, the person they're going to be pissed off the most is at Janet Van Dyne. And I'm gonna spoil it right here. Screw it. I'll spoil it right here. Personal discussion. No idea if it's gonna play out yet. 'cause it is extremely early. I would not be surprised if Janet VanDyne is killed in Avengers, the Kang dynasty.
Speaker 1 00:28:20 Oh,
Speaker 3 00:28:21 Since Hope is the one that like all of the Kang variants are gonna be angry at, at Hope, mainly because Hope was the one that killed, you know, not necessarily killed Janet Kangs. They get No, no, here's the thing, they're angry at Janet, but they're more angry at hope. You being the mother. And she did The Killing Blow, she did the Killing Blow to Na to Nathan, who is not necessarily dead. I'll explain that later. But every Kang variant is going to be particularly angry at Hope. And what they're going to do, what's gonna end up happening is they're gonna try to kill hope. And in the process, instead of killing Hope, Janet's gonna be the one that's gonna take the blow. Because this is going to be the, it's going to be the culmination of Janet's story. Janet's entire story has been, she wants to get home back to her family. She wants to get back home to be with hope, and she wants to be the person that, you know, protects her from everything that's going to happen. But with the entire story, the relationship with Nathaniel and, and Janet, I could see Janet kicking the boat in Avenger Kang Dynasty as one of like those big deaths that's just gonna shock people the same way Gamora's death happened. You know, it's like that in, in Infinity War. I feel like that's what's gonna happen with this
Speaker 1 00:29:40 Movie. Now, will her death actually stick, do you think? Is the question? Because, you know, with everything being, um, so circular with, with the M C U and time, will it actually, will it be a death that matters or will it be something that just gets reconned, you know, later with some story reason?
Speaker 3 00:29:58 I don't think they could bring Janet back if they killed her. Like, 'cause it's very di it's very difficult. I find it very difficult for them to kill Janet and then bring them back, you know? 'cause it, she, Janet does not have these supernatural causes. Like in the case of Gamora, she was brought back because of the timeline and because she was from another parallel Earth that's acceptable. Uh, Al died. He's alive in Valhalla. That's, that works. Um, the people that died in Infinity War due to the Snap were brought back. I don't really see Janet Vandy being brought back. No, I I really don't think that she would be brought back if she's killed in Avengers, the Kang dynasty, which to me right now seems like an extremely high possibility that they're gonna kill Janet in, in Avengers five.
Speaker 1 00:30:50 Well, let's go back to the root cause of that a little bit because you mentioned, you mentioned that the Kang variants were angry at Scott. They're angry at Janet and, and Hope. Um, so, uh, but they're the ones who presumably, you know, banished or, um, banished that version of Kang to the Quantum. Yeah, they did. Yeah. So let's talk about it. Why did they banish him? Um, what does him being dead, if he's really dead, uh, accomplish or thwart, you know, now that he's gone? Um, and let's just talk about that, that situation.
Speaker 2 00:31:27 I, I wondered the same thing too. I'm like, clearly it it, that's a very monumental event to happen if you have to call every single paying force, you know, every variant to have a conversation. Because like the reaction there in that post credit scene where they're like, which, how, how many did you call? And he is like all of them. There's like a slight moment where you can see like a little reaction where the guy's like, wait, hold up. Oh, this is kind of huge <laugh>. Um, is he dead knowing how things go in this universe? No. Where is he? I think that's the more interesting question that we should be asking ourselves. Where did he land up when he went through that probability drive? Because from what I understand, sorry, it was a multiverse engine, core <laugh>, but what was powering it was what a probability field storm. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> probability storm. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So that means that catalyst could have triggered and made a grand probability of different occurring outcomes. And I would be interested in seeing them kind of layer over one another and see where that goes.
Speaker 3 00:32:31 You are right, you are right in a lot of the things that you said. So first and foremost, when, when Kang died, they, they mentioned that like there was this thing, there was a, there was a line that Ram spoilers Ram said, uh, well at this point, me saying spoilers <laugh>, we warned everyone already, yeah, we already warned everyone but uh, Ram Rama hut like he's saying, like, are you sure he's dead? And then he and they, he goes, it must really eat you up that you weren't the one that killed him. <laugh>. The thing is, they're, they're, the thing is they're currently at a point where this has not happened to them before. See, originally it's supposed to be Kang escaping the timeline. That's how it works. It was supposed to be him escaping and then all of the Kangs fighting each other. Because that's how we know history plays out with them.
Speaker 3 00:33:25 All of the Kang variants fight each other until he who remains comes, kills everyone and makes the sacred timeline. Why would they now be like, you know what? We're all going to work together to beat the Avengers because this wasn't supposed to happen. Kang wasn't supposed to be killed, which in this case he wasn't killed. He was absorbed into the multiverse core engine and put into the Quantum nexus. And, and I don't know about you, I'm not, I don't really want to get too much into what his fate was because that's not for me to talk about on this podcast necessarily. <laugh>, all, all I'm going to say is honestly, even though that even though everyone knows him as Kang, the Conqueror Kang, the Beyond has a very good ring to it. I don't know about you, but Pang the Beyond has a really good ring to it.
Speaker 3 00:34:17 And I know that a lot of people are probably gonna not like the idea of Kang being the beyond, but I could see that on a cruise they literally set. Yeah, no, no. The thing is, they literally set it up in the movie when he goes, we are going to conquer eternity. And that's literally how Secret Wars starts with the beyond and the Beyonders killing eternity and taking his power, thus causing the incursions. So him saying that by then going in and then going into like the quantum nexus, I'm like, you know what? I can see the Kang the beyond their title now for safety, of course. But I, I honestly think that's, that's honestly what happened. I think Kang went into, went into the multiverse engine core ended up in the quantum nexus, which is essentially the probability storm. I would expect Kang to have much more control over his probabilities than, than Scott or Hope, mainly because he knows how to handle time.
Speaker 3 00:35:24 But given the effects of what happened, I don't know exactly what what went on with Kang though, though I will say you did, you did see the signature white lights from the, from the explosion. 'cause if you, if you recall when, when the first multiverse engine exploded, like it was just Janet putting in the, like the, the dials, like the, the, the pin particles and the thing expanded and it was completely red and it was all this massive explosion, red explosion of, of, of the, of the orb. But Scott put in all of different pin particles together and no one knows what kind of effect that will have. And when it exploded, it literally had a white light that like the red, the redness of the, of the explosion was covered by a weird white aura that was in, that was on screen. And I saw it twice to kind of make sure that I'm like, I wasn't seeing stuff.
Speaker 3 00:36:29 But it was that. And, and not only that, there's a, there's a blink and you'll miss it moment, a blink, and you'll miss it moment when he hits his back. And you, you guys probably saw it when he hits his back against the multiverse engine core the second time that like, that, uh, hope shoots him and like he hits it and there's this after image of him in the full Kang outfit thing, like for for a split second. You see it and you're just like looking at this after image of, of Nathaniel as Kang in the background as he's hitting the, the orb. And that might just have been like a stylistic choice. It probably meant nothing. But to me, like the weird, the, the way they were setting it up, it, it seems to me as though they're just literally gonna dare and cross this, where they're gonna be like, oh, he, he went into the quantum realm <laugh> and, and like, oh, we, we think he's dead.
Speaker 3 00:37:22 But not really. He just went somewhere else. And at this point, like we were talking about this earlier, like in the multiverse thing, they, they confirmed by the way that the quantum realm is a place that exists outside of space time. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Which is something I did mention in the, in in in our podcast. And I've mentioned it in my article before because we were in this sort of ambivalence space of we don't know where the quantum realm is, whether it exists in space time. Jeff Lne said it was the basement of the, of the, of the universe. <laugh>. We know that's a lie. Literally just based on what, uh, Janets alone, it was a place that exists outside of space time. So the, where do you go beyond the quantum realm? Like at that point, where do you go? Because if that's the smallest point of, of space time, where do you go from the quantum realm? Where do you go from like the Quantum nexus? And we don't know that answer you, it would go beyond the limits of our known universe, hence can the beyond. Ladies and gentlemen, I just write the N C U movies myself,
Speaker 1 00:38:27 <laugh>, I think this is a great moment to jump in. Um, actually about, so we had some audience questions and I think some of them kind of relate to this. So I know we're kind of running short on time. So I wanted to um, hop in with that. So, you know, this is from Twitter and you know, we had great, just so many questions, but we won't get to all of 'em. But, um, so L's Goth wanted to know about, you know, the end credit scene and the mid scene and what that meant going forward, um, with Loki and, and, and everything <laugh>. So Red, do you wanna share your thoughts on that or,
Speaker 2 00:39:04 I'm looking at the question and it's literally asked towards Alex to be fair, uh, you can say a question I have for Alex.
Speaker 1 00:39:12 Well, it can be for everyone, right?
Speaker 3 00:39:14 Yeah, it can be for everyone. Please go ahead. I don't, I don't, I feel like I've spoken too much <laugh>. No, I feel bad now.
Speaker 2 00:39:22 I'm, I'm audience. I'm learning as much as you are. I'm sitting here just like Uhhuh, I never got there mentally myself. I was just more focused. I feel bad all the other things. No, no, no,
Speaker 1 00:39:32 No. Don't, don't feel bad. Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:39:33 No, I'm just looking at, well really I'm looking at Ben's question and I'm already thinking about how I'm gonna say to that <laugh>.
Speaker 1 00:39:39 I don't know if we'll get to it 'cause he had a lot of questions and they were lovely questions.
Speaker 2 00:39:44 I do want to say this one though, 'cause it's a good question and it's, besides Loki, when do you think the next Kang appearance could be? Mm-hmm. And I'm gonna say a different one that obviously loki's a given one, but what about, what if, I mean literally it's talking about all the different possibilities that aca that could happen through the multiverse. Like why not? Like what if also varied slightly? 'cause I know Alex will just stop me, but like kind of gave us a little tasting for what was Multiverse of Madness with Captain Carter and the other Strange, so why wouldn't we continue this little track of it? I, I do want to see other possibilities of kings as far as I know there is no king to conquer or any variant in what if season two. But I would like to see that explored.
Speaker 1 00:40:28 I think there was an interesting maybe tease for that at, at the end of the movie when you saw all of the, the Kang variants, right? There was one that looked like a zombie Kang. Um, and it was just really quick and I only saw the movie once and I know you like, I know other people've seen it more times, so I'm curious as to one more information about that'll come out. But he kind of looked ified. Um, I
Speaker 2 00:40:51 I thought you were gonna say he was animated. I was like, wait, I missed that. No, no.
Speaker 1 00:40:54 Missed that. Not, not animated. No.
Speaker 2 00:40:55 Just for a split second. I was like, where?
Speaker 1 00:40:57 No, no, no, he looked like Zombified. So I'm wondering if that could be something that maybe we see animated and what if along with you
Speaker 2 00:41:05 Like every other day of the week. I forget that Marvel zombies is a thing. And I will continue to do that through next week and the next week and the next week.
Speaker 1 00:41:11 <laugh>. Yeah. Going back to Antman and I think we're just about at time. So, um, actually Red, I'm gonna let you, do you wanna pick the last question that we, that we answer? 'cause I know you're looking at the audience questions and you're, you're ready. So this is the very last one we'll answer because we're just about at time.
Speaker 2 00:41:28 I'm actually gonna go back to the question from ELs Goth because it is a good question and it's, can we expand further on significance of the multiverse saga and the King Dynasty? Well mm-hmm <affirmative>, I'll think of it this way and I'll put it simple and sweet. The Kings are already mobilizing, they're already talking to each other and at this moment, none of our heroes even know of the existence of King. And based off how a man ends, I don't know how inspired Scott is to go and explain it because he had more than one momentary pause. We killed him, right? But did we, and then he continued on and he had those doubts. So I'm really hoping that he does the intelligent thing and tells other people rather than letting things happen on its own. Um, so I think one of the major impacts, to answer your question ELs call is that Kang will be ready, <laugh>, our <laugh> heroes will not be ready at all.
Speaker 1 00:42:21 Yeah. And at this, that's actually a great point. You know, none of the other Aven right now in in this this world know about Kang. But I think, you know, not just the pressure on Scott, I think that amps the pressure on, on Cassie, on Janet, on Hope, on Hank because they, they all know how how gnarly this dude is and you know, they all have access to, um, to these, these powers even though it's suits and all of that. Let's just call him powers for, for simplification in this conversation. So, you know, they have the ability to do something too. It's not just Antman. And you know, you have to wonder Will Antman or Kang is getting ready, will the other guys you know, get, get their own team together? Will Cassie find someone to help?
Speaker 2 00:43:06 And we know that Thor isn't ready since he already got his ass kicked more than once <laugh>. So we gotta figure out what's going on with these guys. They really, they really need a group chat is what they need. They need a group chat.
Speaker 1 00:43:15 Yeah, they definitely do.
Speaker 3 00:43:18 And something that I did wanna mention about Antman, and it's another blink and you'll miss it moment, is uh, when, when Janet is calling Hank and Scott and, and hoping everyone to like come to the tower, she zooms in on the multiverse timeline and when she zooms in on Earth just before, like if, just before she zooms in on Earth and sees 6 1 6, like the timeline on that exact spot where Earth is, there's four different branches coming out of Earth. 6 1 6. It's a literal blink and you'll miss it moment. But I'm gonna watch it again and probably I'll dissect it more when it's on Disney Plus. But there's four timelines branching out from from Earth 6 1 6, which is the like bizarre to me. 'cause I'm thinking to myself, at what point did our universe branch into four different universes? And I'm thinking to myself where there's Loki,
Speaker 1 00:44:17 Well there's the Infinity Stones too, you know? Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:44:22 There's also the Infinity, but they were all brought back. The only the that would, that would be Loki. That would be Loki, like Loki disappearing from that. That would be one of them. Probably the other one, spider-Man would have to be, you know what I know, I know exactly what the other one is. The Thanos snapping away 2014 because technically at that point we would have a universe where Thanos did not exist post 2014. So the Thanos of the Guardians never happened. And then, uh, that's probably a what if episode most likely. But, um, the other two I have no idea at at what point, like I'd say best
Speaker 2 00:45:02 Guesses could be split Spider-Man No Way. Home or Vission and possibly Wand Vission or Dr. Strange,
Speaker 3 00:45:13 Dr. Strange is very likely it's possible since we already have an incursion starting in 6 1 6. But I don't know about Wand Vission and I certainly don't know about Spider-Man, mainly because Spider-Man in and of itself opened an infinite amount of, of dimensions with like Craven, the Hunter and Venom and Scorpion and all these characters from all across the multiverse. Not only that, but like also the two timelines with Andrew and Toby. So it's a little bit confusing and I'm trying to piece it together, but I, I would like an actual explanation from Marvel about like the four timelines from that, from that, from that scene and like for them to specify what those timelines were. But it's, yeah. Apart from that, are there any other questions?
Speaker 1 00:46:00 Um, I think we're actually pretty close to time. Um, either way. So, well it's been, it's been a pleasure talking with you both about Antman. Um, do you wanna tell guys, uh, people where they can find you and how they can read more of your stuff?
Speaker 3 00:46:18 So I'm on Twitter, uh, Alex from CC and I just mainly write on the Cosmic Circus. And I'm, uh, and I'm also on this podcast because they have me hostage sent help <laugh>. But uh, but uh, yeah, uh, that, that's pretty much all I got. So that's, that's all from me.
Speaker 2 00:46:37 And I'm Anthony Flagg. You can find me at rodo underscore on Twitter.
Speaker 1 00:46:42 And I'm Ila Ruby. You can find me at t u l i n rights at Twitter and you can find all of
[email protected] and make sure you give us a listen or we'll talk to you next time. That was very awkward and I'm sure Lizzie's gonna edit that, but yes,
Speaker 2 00:46:59 You're still recording. Woo.
Speaker 1 00:47:00 I know, I know. These are the, ah, how do I stop recording? Sorry guys. Oh my gosh.
