Episode Transcript
[00:00:17] Speaker A: Welcome to another episode of Sloth Baby Productions. Excuse me. The Cosmic Circle, the companion podcast for thecosmiccircus.com and today we're chatting all things the marbles. I'm Isla Ruby, and I'm joined by some very special guests today emily, Drew, and Uday. Hi.
[00:00:33] Speaker B: Hey, guys. I'm Drew.
[00:00:35] Speaker C: Hi. This is Uday.
[00:00:37] Speaker D: Yay.
[00:00:37] Speaker A: So it's nice to talk to you guys. We're chatting the marbles. And this is going to be an episode where there are a lot of spoilers, so don't touch the shiny hex jump points unless you really have already seen the marbles. And if you haven't, what are you waiting for? Okay, well, let's get right into it. So, who liked the marbles? What are your overall thoughts? You did. All right. Let's hear why. Drew, you're up first.
[00:01:01] Speaker B: Since I thought it was good.
It's such a touchy subject right now, right on Twitter and social media. The.
[00:01:12] Speaker E: You know, I've seen a good.
[00:01:14] Speaker B: Consensus of people that liked it, and I liked so I think I mentioned this in the group chat with us, but I always come out of movies feeling conflicted because I don't process things very quickly when it comes to movies. It takes me a while to process my thoughts on movies, and so sometimes if I need to write a review, it takes me like a week to kind of come to a conclusion on what I think. But I came out of the Marvels liking it right away, and I think that's probably because of how quick the pacing was and how just kind of straightforward the movie.
Like I enjoyed it. I thought it was fun, and I think that's what I didn't really have fun with. Kind of like Quantum Mania, and there was some I mean, Guardians of the Galaxy, obviously, I had fun with, but this was definitely one of the more fun Marvel movies I've seen recently.
I haven't had this much fun probably since no Way Home.
I mean guardians, obviously.
[00:02:11] Speaker A: I feel like we're all still scarred by Ant Man and Quantum Mania, that we talk about it, but we don't talk about how cool Guardians was. But that's another podcast.
[00:02:20] Speaker B: True.
[00:02:22] Speaker C: Wakanda Forever is the movie that really gets overlooked. But I agree that the Marvels was fun. I was really enjoying the middle of the movie. I have some thoughts on it. Overall, I wouldn't say I dislike it. I just don't think I like it. It was just very blessed. I liked all of the ideas and the concepts. I loved the characters. But to me, everything fell flat, and everything had something that prevented it from actually being what I would call good.
[00:02:55] Speaker A: Is this the Marvels overall or just that second act?
[00:02:59] Speaker C: Just the marvels overall. I think I can point to something I didn't like in every act, but I will say that a solid 70% of the movie I think was just as good as any other Marvel movie. For me, it just kind of completely collapsed at the end, but I don't think it's as boring as something like like Quantum Mania wasn't fun. But I do think the Marvels is fun.
[00:03:23] Speaker D: I liked it.
I have a lot of conflicting thoughts because I love Captain Marvel, and I'm such a big Captain Marvel comic books fan, and same for Miss Marvel. So there was a lot of stuff I really liked about it. I loved how fast paced it was, and I loved how they got right into the groove of we're switching places and we need to fix this in the immediate team up. But there was some stuff, like Uday said, where it falls flat for me, for sure.
[00:03:51] Speaker A: I feel like I don't.
So, first of all, you guys can't see this, but Emily and I were talking in the pre show when she says she likes Captain Marvel. She's got a big poster of Captain Marvel behind her, so that's the perspective that she's bringing to this, and I think that's totally valid. I really liked the marvels. There was one section, which we can talk about later, that was totally weird to me, but I just thought this was so much fun. And the note that Ant Man wasn't fun totally true. The marvels was.
Of everything you say about it, you can't say that it wasn't fun.
It was really fast paced. It was exciting. Every time Kamala is on screen, she steals the show. She's just such a joy to watch. And it's part of why I loved Miss Marvel, and it was really exciting to me to see a fresh team up because we've seen The Avengers, we've seen these folks and these three women. We haven't seen that before. I really like that. So that was fun for me.
So did you guys have really high expectations coming into the movie? Was this sort of what you expected, or are you disappointed?
[00:05:05] Speaker B: No, actually, I think that's why I like the movie, because I didn't have expectations for it, when a lot of the time I really do have high expectations. And that's kind of what leaves me disappointed sometimes is how high my expectations are. But I went into this kind of tempered I really liked Miss Marvel. The Disney Plus show. That's one of my favorite Disney Plus shows. I think it was really well executed. I think it kind of lands in the same vein as Spider Man in the way that that lands.
But overall, I kind of came in with temperate expectations, and I was really the I think that Miss Marvel, like Kamala and her family, kind of elevate the entire story. They elevate the plot when Carol is involved with Kamala's family and Monica. I think, overall, the aspect of the Khan family kind of is what elevated this movie. I really enjoyed the second act, too. I think Uday said that I really enjoyed when they were on the ship and bonding. I think that felt a lot like I mentioned that felt a lot like.
[00:06:11] Speaker E: No Way Home when it was like.
[00:06:13] Speaker B: The Three Spider Mans were kind of bonding like that. And that was, like, one of my favorite parts. I really like those parts where you get some character growth like that.
But, yeah, in terms of where they're mentioning where the movie fell flat, I think I can agree with some of that towards the end.
[00:06:32] Speaker A: Now, Emily and I don't want to put you on the spot, but did you have really big expectations coming into this trailer based on everything?
[00:06:40] Speaker D: Well, I didn't have huge expectations for it. Like, oh, this was going to be something that this is going to be like a huge stepping stone, and it connects everything in the Marvel universe to the next phase. There was obviously that small stuff at the end. Well, huge reveal at the end, not small, but my expectation was that it's bringing these three characters together that we've met so early on and that they're so similar because it's Miss Marvel, Captain Marvel, and then there's the Monica. And it was just I just expected them to come together, and I was very happy the way that they were able to execute it.
[00:07:17] Speaker A: How about you, Day?
[00:07:18] Speaker C: I have to be honest that I was really excited by the first couple of trailers. I was really looking forward to it. And then in the final week, my expectations fell into the I. I just got so exhausted by the MCU that I felt nothing about going to watch the movie, which isn't usually the case. Usually I'm really hyped for superhero movies. I've definitely lost the hype for movies. I think with Black Adam, that's like the last time I was excited for a DC movie. And with Marvel, I feel like I'm getting to that point where I'm losing the hype. And part of that is because the marketing for the Marvels got extremely like, that's the only way I can describe it. In the last month, it had the most desperate marketing I've ever seen from Marvel. And I really wish I hadn't watched that final trailer that came out that Monday because it showed the entire movie. And I feel like that if I hadn't seen that, I would have been a little bit more excited by the actual movie.
But that final trailer that they released on Monday, I feel like contributed to that feeling I had of meh when I watched the actual movie.
I do think overall, it surpassed my expectations, especially in terms of the action sequences. I thought the action sequences were some of the best we've seen from Marvel, but other than that, it was kind of like all on par or below in some areas.
[00:08:43] Speaker A: Uday, I'm really glad you mentioned that trailer because I know that it had a lot of people talking, and I think, correct me if I'm wrong, it showed stuff that wasn't even the movie at the beginning, right? So it showed, like, The Avengers and this dreamy sequence. And then from the movie that wasn't there.
[00:09:01] Speaker C: No, and I don't think there's anything wrong. This is a franchise. There's nothing wrong with marketing these solo movies off the backs of what came before. Like Shang chi. Had TV spots. Know? Talked about Captain America. And so did you know where they show Captain America and Thor and Iron Man just because they want you to know it's connected. But what I didn't like about that final trailer is that it tried to sell the Marvels as, like, the sequel to Endgame, where it put Carol up alongside the likes of Steve and Tony. But it was really obvious how awkward it was in the trailer because she doesn't have any scenes with them that you could put in there. And then it was also selling Darben as, like, Thanos's successor. That started with a month to go when tickets went on sale, Darben started being sold as they cut that line together from Endgame, where Thanos is, oh, like, there will always be more to finish my work. And then Darben is destroying planets, and that's just false advertising. Absolutely.
And again and it seems desperate. It seems like the movie can't stand on its own. And that really, really bothered me. And that took a lot of my excitement away because it's like, if the company is giving up on it, why should I care about just that all left a bad taste in my mouth.
[00:10:18] Speaker A: The Darbend thing kind of reminded me of Clickbait in a way, because you have this headline, you have this idea that, okay, she's not a justified villain. She's just like this destroyer going after planets. But, okay, you click the article, or you actually watch the movie, and with no weight, she actually has justification for why she's going gnarly. Did you guys like Darben? Did you have thoughts on her? Because I think that's a good moment to talk.
[00:10:50] Speaker B: People I saw a lot of people saying she was the worst MCU villain, and I think that's really far from the truth, just because I think that she has the depth and the backstory there people just aren't really bought into the Holla story from Captain Marvel one. And I think that really didn't do her any favors as a villain because people didn't really care about Holla. But in terms of her motives and her backstory and her reasoning, it all kind of made sense. There wasn't anything out of the ordinary. Kind of like how, like an Incredible Hulk when you had, like, what's his name? The guy who played Abomination what's the character's name?
[00:11:29] Speaker D: Emile Blonsky.
[00:11:31] Speaker B: Yeah, Blonsky. He didn't really have, like, a motive in the movie. He just was a crazy dude. And that's, like an example of a bad like, this villain, at least. Hadn't.
They just don't have enough people invested in the scroll and the Kree and Captain Marvel story, because I feel like that was all kind of set up really well, and they didn't dive too much into that into this movie. Because I think that's what people didn't like about the first Captain Marvel, was they didn't really care about the scroll versus the Kree. And that was like, I think, what kind of lowered the movie. So I think in this, they really just focused know, Carol Kamala and and they cut out a lot of scroll, like that whole kind of line. I think a little bit more development from her probably would have put her as, like, a mid tier villain. And, yeah, I think she's a fine villain. I don't see any problems other than the fact that a lot of her development was probably cut out just to put more focus on the main characters.
[00:12:30] Speaker D: I also think that if secret invasion had been a little bit better and with the scrolls and stuff, people would have cared way more about the skrull and the kree thing carrying on from Captain Marvel one. Because if you don't have that connection and you're just like leaving that huge story, because it's a huge thing in the comics too. It's been going on forever for the whole time. It's been a giant war that they've had for eternity. And you kind of have to have them care, because especially where you have the young Avengers coming in at some point, too, teddy's, like half Cree, half scroll. You're going to have to care about it at some point. You can't keep making it bad.
[00:13:08] Speaker B: Yeah, I honestly don't think they're going to do I don't think they're going to do a whole thing, honestly.
[00:13:12] Speaker A: Not only that, but at the end of Invasion, there's this reveal that we still haven't talked about in the greater Marvel universe, that everyone's a Skrull. It seems like none of that happened or came up at all in Captain Marvel.
[00:13:31] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, secret invasion was pretty fumbled.
That's such a huge story secret Invasion is such a huge comic book story that everybody loves that was just totally fumbled. I think they've just fumbled the scroll storyline so poorly. It's been so poorly done, and that's such an unfortunate thing to say. I know you want stuff like that to work, but it's just been so poorly done, and I think that doesn't really have anything to do with this movie. I know the scrolls were like the Tarnax plot was kind of like it almost felt like a side kind of side mission kind of thing. Like the Skrulls got roped into the story just because they wanted some continuity, when really they didn't have much to do with the story. It was more so like Darben's crusade against Carol and just got kind of roped in for continuity reasons.
[00:14:20] Speaker A: I guess they were a victim, essentially, of all that. Right? They weren't championing their own story or driving it in any way they were just kind of incidental damage along.
[00:14:32] Speaker C: Yeah, and I think that's such an interesting idea.
So, full disclosure, I love Darben. I thought Darben among the pantheon of bad Marvel villains, quote, unquote.
I'm just talking about those villains that just kind of come and go, right? The ones that are kind of forgettable.
Yeah, I think Darben is the best. Forgettable MCU villain. I got to be honest. She had a great motivation.
Zawe Ashton did a good job. She walked around with so much swagger. There's this one moment on Aladdin when she lands on the ship over the ocean, and the way that she's walking forward, I'm just damn, okay.
I respect her pettiness.
[00:15:18] Speaker A: I think that I mean, it's not petty, is it?
[00:15:22] Speaker C: Well, I think it is.
Your planet is destroyed because of your own fault. No one told you to get in a civil war, right? That's on you. Don't put that on Carol. It's not my fault you can't figure out how to govern yourselves without an AI ruling you. But all of that was so interesting to me, and I loved Darben's backstory, like, with the whole Hala thing, because I'm upset with having it all happen off screen. And maybe I'll touch on that more later, because I really think that, again, this movie should have been Carol destroying the Supreme Intelligence. It should have been about the Kree Skrull war, I think, instead of letting that all happen off screen. But that's such an interesting consequence. I never would have expected that the Kree empire is dead because of what Carol did. And I think that also offers a little bit more context to the first Guardians of the Galaxy, where the Kree have signed a peace treaty with Xandar, because I guess they just can't keep up these wars without their master strategist. And so that's so interesting to me that their planet is dying because they can't rule themselves.
And Darben like, yeah, she could have gotten atmosphere off of any planet, but instead she's targeting planets that Carol calls home, like Carol said in the movie. And that's petty, and that's interesting.
I do think she was kind of underwritten. I do think there was a lot more there that you could have done with her, especially because in the flashback, she's wearing a Star Force uniform. So does that mean that she fought alongside? Like, I think there was a lot more opportunity, but, like, come on. Darben is no worse. Definitely not worse than Malekith or Whiplash or whoever in The Incredible Hulk. I think people are being way too.
[00:17:09] Speaker E: Dramatic about she was she's much better.
[00:17:12] Speaker B: Than Malekith, much better than Whiplash.
[00:17:14] Speaker C: Exactly. I think she's more personal. I think, honestly, she's, like, the only thing that's carried over from the first movie.
[00:17:23] Speaker B: Yeah, pretty much.
[00:17:24] Speaker C: With the Hala storyline. And I don't just I was surprised, given that Darben seemed like a weaker villain from the trailers. I was surprised that she had such an interesting backstory, because I was really expecting something like, painfully generic, like Malekith, and I don't think she had a generic background.
[00:17:42] Speaker B: It was really well laid out in such a short period of time. I'll give them credit for that. Obviously, there should have been more development, but I think the story was the backstory was laid out as well as it could be with such a short time constraint. And I do agree with Uday with in terms of Captain Marvel versus the Supreme Intelligence should have been like Captain Marvel, too. It should have been. But I think Marvel kind of was self aware that people probably wouldn't really care for that.
Again, that's unfortunate to say. I think they probably decided to move on to a storyline that might suit better audiences better, which they probably thought that this was. And honestly, I do. I think that there should have been a way to kind of infuse the destruction of the Supreme Intelligence and the war against the Korean scroll and infuse that with this plotline.
[00:18:33] Speaker E: And I think that would have done.
[00:18:34] Speaker B: The movie a lot more favors. We're kind of talking about it like the movie is terrible, and I don't feel like that at all. I think it's a very rewatchable movie.
It's short, it's consistent, fun, fast paced. It's very much so reminiscent of an early 2000s superhero movie.
And there's a lot of rewatch value, I feel like, in terms of if you just want to watch something that's quick and fun and enjoyable because that's what this movie is, it's more so fun than it is like a philosophical deep dive into deep undertones and themes and stuff like that. It's more kind of straightforward, like and.
[00:19:19] Speaker C: I mean, sorry, I was going to say, we also mentioned Secret Invasion earlier, right. And I think Emily said if Secret Invasion was received better, then maybe people would care more about the Skrulls and the Kree and everything.
I honestly feel like, first of all, I know people joked about, like, oh, Sam Raimi and Michael Waldron didn't watch WandaVision when they made Doctor Strange, right? And you can definitely see the divide between those creative teams and those projects, but there is a much greater divide between Secret Invasion and the Marvels. They are, like, the only two things that are the direct sequels to Captain Marvel, and they both go in completely opposite directions, because one is like, I search the entire universe for you, and there's no planet where you can live. And then the other one's like, hey, look, here's a planet that a bunch of skrulls are living on. Yeah, I want to make and I mean emperor droj. Wright, he seemed like he was running a pretty tight ship. Everyone seemed happy there. And in Secret Invasion, they're like, oh, we don't want to live with him.
So I don't know. But I will say that I think the MCU has a problem with dropping a lot of stuff, like when they move from sequel to sequel. That's one of the things I love so much about Wakanda Forever is how much it builds on the first movie versus the Marvels and Quantum Mania, which just throw out as much as possible from the previous movies for no reason.
[00:20:42] Speaker A: I think, too, though, you mentioned different creative teams, but I think it's actually a larger problem because I think the creative teams are just hired guts by Marvel. It's a studio level, and we've seen time and time again we've heard time and time again that creatives who work for Marvel get noted to death. There are so many revisions, last minute changes based on focus groups, based on whatever. So it seems like Marvel Studios itself has an issue with inconsistency, not necessarily related to the creatives, but related to the team that's noting folks and handing out these greater storylines. Not from the directors, not from all of that. I think, though, to back it up a little bit to talk about Zawe Ashton, I think she was know you said underwritten, and I totally agree with that because she's just such a phenomenal actress.
I think she could have know a Thanos equivalent. She has the stature, she has a presence, and I think she acted the hell out of what she was given. I just don't think she was given all that much to work with well.
[00:21:54] Speaker C: And like, to me, that kind of takes it back to the sequel. Like, why is Darben some random Star Force member that got knocked down by some rubble, the villain of this movie where's Rogue where's Minerva minerva died. But that was dumb because we need more.
[00:22:11] Speaker A: You know, you're never actually dead with.
[00:22:16] Speaker C: And and so I'm like, couldn't they have just like, they couldn't have been like, oh, yeah, we stuck her burned body in some pod, and now she's back to life, and she and Jan Rogg have taken over for the Supreme Intelligence?
That's what doesn't make sense to me. I mean, Yon ROG isn't even mentioned in this. Like, what happened to him? That's the kind of stuff that really bothers, like when you just so blatantly ignore stuff from previous movies. And I get that Captain Marvel wasn't the best received, and maybe Marvel wanted to move away from some things, but they didn't really move away from it because it's still about the Kree Empire, like, being the villains at its core.
[00:22:55] Speaker A: Emily, what did you, um so I.
[00:22:59] Speaker D: Think kind of like what was the point that you made kind of going back to the stories where they throw things out and where it's like they're at the studio level, like they have a problem. I seen this on Twitter, and I think in our chats, too, is that they have a continuity issue and where they don't know where they are in their stories and what year it is where we're used to seeing the opposite end on that and Star Wars. We know everything down to the made up year, but we're in our calendar time now. We're all caught up on the five years later thing. So how the hell do we not know where we are? I know there was even a debate in Hawkeye where it was like, I think people are still lost on, like, is it 2024? Christmas 2025 in that story. So it's like, what happens first and then what happens after? I feel like we don't have a clear timeline on it until it gets added into Disney Plus. And they're like, this is where this is, and this is where that is, and this is the timeline. And it's like, that's great now, but can I have something a little more specific, maybe?
[00:24:03] Speaker A: Yep. And isn't it too that after know, with that time jump, we all thought it was going to be forever. We thought those five years or whatever was going know, just make things really confusing. And I don't know if that's what made things confusing or just, like you said, marvel's inability to just give us anything clear.
[00:24:26] Speaker D: I think it's a mixture of both, actually, because I've had this thought where I feel like the Russo brothers kind of screwed them with that five year time jump. But also at the same time, it was kind of a good idea because now we have these stories that fit in to that time. But at the same time, we're still messed up on telling our stories.
[00:24:47] Speaker A: Now.
[00:24:48] Speaker D: So it's very confusing.
[00:24:52] Speaker A: So moving along just a little bit. So was there anything in the Marvels we've talked about some of the things that didn't work. Were there any couple of moments that you thought were really well executed, that were just really done well, that you okay? Like every Marvel moving forward should have something as cool as this or as awesome as this.
[00:25:12] Speaker D: I think their team up was done really well. I know that was obviously the main focus of it, but I think that's literally the best thing about it was their chemistry and everything that they did together.
[00:25:23] Speaker C: I'll say darben's little walk on Aladna and also Kamala's family. I thought it was so refreshing that the superheroes family wasn't just left behind on Earth and that they actually went up into space and went on their own adventure parallel to hers. That felt very refreshing and very unique. And Shang Chi did something similar, like with his friend coming along, but that felt more like someone overstaying their welcome. And I don't think the cons felt like that at all.
[00:25:56] Speaker D: Her mom is so important to her story, so I think that's why it was necessary for her to come along. And I love her mom, and I don't remember the actress's, like, the way she talks to Kamala. It's like they're really mother and daughter, and their chemistry is just so perfect, and she's just so inspiring. When she told her that last week, she's like, I'm not going to let you go, but I am going to let you go. And she was like, you come back to like, you have to come back.
[00:26:26] Speaker C: And I also love that because that's, like, my own culture. I'm desi. I'm not Pakistani, I'm Indian. But it reminds me of my mom. And I saw the movie for the second time with my mom, and every time Kamala's mother opened her mouth, my mother was, like, laughing.
[00:26:41] Speaker A: So oh. What about you, Andrew? Was there anything that you know it should be?
[00:26:50] Speaker B: Yeah, so I like the action. I think the action was really well done. I think Uday mentioned something like that earlier.
The action sequences, I like long action. I like really intricate action sequences. I think that's what makes a lot of action movies, action movies.
That's why they call them action movies, is because of the fight choreography and stuff like that. And I think they really did really well with that in this movie. The first fight sequence where they all kept switching places on the cree ship and the con home, that was really well done. And the music was really fun. The choreography was really good. They did some really cool moves and stuff like that. And I think that as rough as the third act was, I think the final fight between the three of them and Darbend was really well done. They were really kicking the crap out of each other. And I feel like you need more action sequences like that. And that was really like I just thought it was cool. I thought it was really well done. That was what I enjoyed the most about the movie, was how well done the action was and how well done the chemistry was between the group.
[00:27:59] Speaker A: The action, like the switching right, where they would all switch places really felt like a comic book to me. And I thought that was really cool that they could bring that vibe to the screen. So I totally agree with you there. That was such a high point of the movie. And just it was so well done.
[00:28:18] Speaker C: I think the action just it felt so like there were several moments that made my eyes kind of, like, bug out of my head a little bit, where I was like, that's so cool.
And I mean, like, Shang chi had really cool action sequences. It's kind of funny that I'm making so many Shang Chi comparisons.
And I don't think the action in this movie is on the level of Shang chi because they're just such different styles. But that was like, the last time that I felt like, oh, my God, what a unique fight choreography for a Marvel movie. And that's really how I felt here with Monica's. Intangibility vision can phase like Monica does, but he's never done such quick and interesting. Moves that did, like people were talking about on Twitter when she pulled that energy out of that crease spear, punched him, flew through him, and then punched him back. The other like, all of that stuff. And then also the fact that wasn't shown in the trailers. Like, going back to what I said about how I felt like I saw the whole movie in the final trailer, I was surprised at how many awesome action beats weren't revealed in those trailers.
[00:29:26] Speaker E: Yeah, naya Acosta had said that she's, like a big anime fan. So I think the action was very anime influenced.
[00:29:32] Speaker B: And.
[00:29:34] Speaker E: I think a lot of action is becoming anime influenced. And I think that's a good thing.
I think everybody, like movies need to continue to find new and innovative ways to do action sequences because there's just been too many Marvel movies where it's like, kick, punch, 50,000 cuts of the camera.
It's just like that gets old after a while. It originally was kind of reinvented by the Russo brothers and Winter Soldier with some really intricate hand to hand combat.
[00:30:03] Speaker A: Right?
[00:30:04] Speaker E: Yeah. Stuff like that how intricate the hand to hand combat was.
I think people really liked that. And ever since then, I don't think there's really been action sequences that have been super intricate like that. Up until Shang Chi. I mean, no Way Home had some cool stuff, but I feel like a lot of the action sequences were kind of cut down in no Way Home based off of a lot of the behind the scenes stuff, like the apartment fight in no Way Home between Peter and the Goblin.
It was really fun. They get thrown through floors and stuff like that. But I think that that was really cut down. And I think that's a big issue with fight sequences is they cut down on action a lot just because I think people are going to get bored with action that's too long. But I think in this, like, unless you're a John Wick fan, but I think this movie had a good balance of action and dialogue to fit into because the movie isn't an hour and 45 minutes. It's like an hour and 30 because credits are about, like, 1015 minutes long.
So, yeah, they had some good action sequences in there. Like I said, I liked the third. The final battle was cool. It was short, but I thought it was cool. The choreography was really well done. And that was what I think I enjoyed the most. That was probably a big reason why I was like, yeah, this is great. Because if you have good chemistry, good at action sequences, I think that kind of does it for me in a way.
[00:31:34] Speaker A: It's funny because normally when we talk about Marvel stuff, we're talking about the TV shows and we talk about, oh, we needed more than six episodes. Oh, we needed more than 30 minutes in an episode. Do you think that we needed more time in the Marvels, or do you think this is something that Marvel should continue going forward? Do you think they should keep these tight 90 minutes movies, or do we.
[00:31:59] Speaker B: Need time to breathe?
[00:32:02] Speaker C: I think we desperately needed some time to breathe. I am not a fan of shorter movies in general. I did not like the runtime when it was first rumored, and I feel like there were a lot of people online saying, like, oh, well, shorter movies means more showtimes, which means more money. And I really hate that argument because it has no water. Like, the highest grossing movies on earth are three hour epics and game and Avatar and Avatar two and Titanic. And I think it's really disproven just these last two weeks with the Marvels and Hunger games, with Hunger Games being an hour longer and opening exactly the same. And I also don't think it's an excuse. Like, yes, movie making is a business. But even if shorter run times did bring in more money, I think it's what's more important for the story and for the like, it was very fast paced.
The movie started quickly and then didn't let up, and I don't think that's a problem at the beginning.
I feel like several movies lately, I feel like, have had rushed beginnings, not just like in Marvel, but I don't think there's anything wrong with a rushed beginning. Like, if the rest of the movie is paced well. I didn't think the Marvels was paced well. I found it really awkward how there would be emotional scenes, and then the characters would immediately just move on like nothing happened with the skrull memories and how upset Monica was, and then they just hug her, and then everything's cool, and there's no tension anymore. And so it seems like that that I feel, like, needed to breathe a little bit more.
I honestly would have loved longer action scenes because it felt like the final battle. Like, Drew was just saying how cool it was, and I definitely like, I really loved all of the fighting that was going on, but then it feels like it ended really suddenly. And I feel like the movie in general, there didn't feel like a break between the second and third act. It felt like the second act finished, and then all of a sudden, the movie was over.
My biggest issue with the movie is the ending, because it just feels like someone forgot to write an ending, and they kind of just slapped something on it at the last second and then cut to black as quickly as possible. And I don't know if that's an editing problem or, like, a writing problem, but I feel like 20 minutes would have helped the Marvels more than any other rush to Marvel movie in the last couple of years.
[00:34:18] Speaker A: Interesting. What do you think, Emily?
[00:34:20] Speaker D: I think it could have used that extra 20 minutes it could have easily been a two hour movie, no problem.
I agree with you, Uday. There needed to be a little more tension in those emotional moments, especially that first one between Monica and Carol on the ship when they're fixing something. It was like, why weren't you there? You said you'd be back in no time. And then they just came up and it was ah. And Kamala's like, hi, I love you guys so much and I am twinsies. And it felt like nothing there, like they were bonding over Kamala for a hot second, but I think it could have been 2 hours. I do like the shorter movie, though, because I don't think everything needs to be 3 hours because it feels like we're getting to this point with movie and TVs overall where it's like everything's a six to eight episode thing and TV shows are taking two years to produce and get out to people. And then movies have to be like this three hour thing to be good. But it's like sometimes it gets boring when you drag it on for far too long and things just need to get going way faster. So I think after endgame, keeping things like 2 hours and under is not a bad thing, to be honest with you, because I know not everybody loved Thor Love and Thunder. I didn't really either. But the time that it was like an hour and a half was perfectly fine for that movie. And if we're going for these kinds of stories, then that's fine.
[00:35:46] Speaker A: I think I want to kind of dig deep into something you guys said about that. Did you? Let's talk about why it didn't work, what you thought about it.
[00:35:58] Speaker C: I felt nothing with Monica being stranded, absolutely nothing. That did not land for me whatsoever. And I loved Monica in WandaVision. I liked her in this movie. It just felt like she got no depth. Apart from that scene with fixing the ship with Carol, I'm like, she felt so much more like a real character to me in WandaVision. And here she just kind of seemed like the third person in the group and I was kind of disappointed at that, especially because NIA DeCosta was so like she talked so much about how excited she was to bring Monica to the big screen and everything, and that didn't sit well for me. And then again, everything just happened so rapidly. It's like they start fighting Darben, it's done in five minutes. Darban gets both. Bangles, she's dead 30 seconds later. And then Monica's, like, somehow she knows exactly. I know that Monica is a scientist. I'm not doubting her intelligence, but she's like, oh, yeah, you guys need to charge me up. I'm going to fly into the rip and seal it. And then it's all just over in two minutes. Like the start of the final battle to Monica being stranded in another universe. I don't know how long it actually was because I don't time this stuff when I'm watching it in theaters, but it felt like it took eight minutes or less.
It just fell completely flat for me. And that's why I said this in my review of the Marvels. I think it was the worst ending for an MCU movie I've ever seen in my life because it was just so anticlimactic. And that's what really kind of ruined the movie for me because up until Darben went to get Earth's Son, it was like right after the FLIR kitten sequence, that's when it all started going downhill.
And I think the way you leave a movie is so important. The ending of a movie is so important. And the Marvel's ending like that just left a bad taste in my mouth, even though I liked most of it up to that point. And everyone I saw the movie with agreed with me. So I know I am not just insane, but I don't know, I thought it felt so anticlimactic.
[00:37:57] Speaker E: Yeah.
I could probably add in that I think that the editing was kind of reput a couple of times.
So, like a year ago, I think the plot was out there. I'd known the plot of the movie for about a year now.
I think there was a time, I believe, where the ending with Kamala and Kate Bishop was a post credit scene. And I think that the original ending was that it was Monica waking up in another universe with her mom. And I think that was kind of like flip flopped.
[00:38:30] Speaker B: Mean, I don't know if you guys.
[00:38:31] Speaker E: Noticed, but the last shot of this movie is of Kate Bishop, which just kind of feels weird in a Captain Marvel movie, like you're ending the movie on.
[00:38:40] Speaker B: So, yeah, the end.
[00:38:41] Speaker E: I agree. It was just kind of a weird cut at the end. And the final battle was kind of like the whole third act was kind of cut kind of awkwardly. That kind of just feels like they were just cutting down on time they wanted to meet, like a time restraint. See, I agree that the ending definitely had some issues, but overall, I don't really sweat it. I'm not really kind of up at night thinking about it. It doesn't really bother me.
[00:39:05] Speaker B: I could watch the movie again and.
[00:39:06] Speaker E: Not be bothered by anything. I feel fine with watching when I watch the movie, I feel fine with it. I'm not really doing a super deep dive in my mind onto what's, production wise, what's wrong? I think it's probably just because of how tempered my expectations were and they were pleasantly met in terms of runtime that we were just talking about. I know that we were talking about.
[00:39:32] Speaker B: That a little bit ago, but I.
[00:39:34] Speaker E: Do have some issues with under two hour movies that are doing a lot of building, like world building, I think quantum mania.
You have to remember that the credits cut out about ten to 15 minutes of runtime. So you're getting like a two hour and five minute movie that's really like an hour and 50 minutes movie.
And I think that shorter movies haven't really done any justice to Marvel in phase four and phase five. If you look, I think I mentioned this the other day, all the Marvel movies that were over 2 hours and like ten minutes in phase four all performed really well as a box office and critically, and all the movies that were under 2 hours performed really poorly, critically, like the Marvels Thor and Love and Thunder Dr. Strange, Multiverse of Madness, Quantum Mania, I think all those movies probably needed another 15 to 20 minutes to kind of settle in, like Multiverse of Madness. I was kind of disappointed going out of because of how fast it was.
That was really my biggest disappointment was coming out of Multiverse of Madness. There was too much going on in too much time. In too short of time. There wasn't the beginning. I think Uday or we had talked about how the first act doesn't need to be super kind of long and set up. Like, you can go fast through the first act. And I think that was the biggest problem with a couple of other movies like Love and Thunder and Quantum Mania and Multiverse of Madness. Quantum Mania. You were in the Quantum realm in under ten minutes. There was no first act, really. So, overall yeah, I think wakanda forever. No way home.
I think there's one Guardians of the Galaxy. Those three movies are all like 2 hours and 30 minutes or longer, and those all were like the three highest performing Marvel movies at the box office in the past couple of years. So the runtime argument, I feel like I'm more on the side of longer movies just because I like longer movies. I feel like it gives you more time to settle in with the characters, to write better dialogue scenes, to flesh out characters and supporting characters more.
I guess it's just all about how your mind is framed going into a movie and what your expectations are like in a way. Like I said with the Marvels, I was pleasantly surprised because I had low expectations. But going into Love and Thunder, I was really disappointed because it felt too fast and very under kind of developed.
[00:42:15] Speaker D: I think the thing with the ending was they really wanted to emphasize that there was another universe kind of like clashing with theirs. So they wanted to emphasize on that, hey, this is the incursion that we were talking about from Doctor Strange, and that's what you're going to see in the end, credit scenes. And that's why they wanted Monica on the other side and stuff like that was the whole point of the story, or the ending, if you will, of.
[00:42:41] Speaker A: The movie in some.
[00:42:44] Speaker D: And it's just, I think that that's what they wanted to get across.
That was what was happening, and that's kind of what took away from the final battle for me because it was so quick, and I honestly didn't even really like the final battle that much. I thought that some of the camera angles were very weird. I thought the choreography was a little strange in parts, which kind of took me out of it for a few minutes until the end when Darben died. So I wasn't a huge fan of it. But I thought Monica's final transformation when she was glowing was really cool, and she felt like photon then.
[00:43:22] Speaker A: Sorry, Uday, but I know we're starting to run a little bit short on time, and I kind of want to find out what you guys think about that young Avengers pre ending scene where we end? I guess not. Pre ending scene. Pre post credit scene where we see Haley Steinfeld at the end of the Captain Marvel movie. And then also about the credit scene. I would love to get your thoughts on those two things.
[00:43:49] Speaker C: I was going into this direction based off of what Emily said, where it seems like the purpose of this movie was just to set up Monica being in another universe.
That's honestly how I feel about the entire end of the Marvel. So, like, the actual ending, the Kate Bishop scene and the end credit scene, which the Kate Bishop scene, like, yeah, we've known it was rumored to be an end credit scene, and it felt like one. It felt like a very strange ending for a Captain Marvel movie, like Drew said. And, I mean, it was cute, like, as a, like, you know, parodying, like the Nick Fury thing. I love seeing Kate Bishop on the big screen, but it fills me with exhaustion, and so does the other end credits scene, and so did Monica being trapped in another universe, because I'm just like, when is it going to like, it doesn't matter. I just sat through this movie so that you could set up Young Avengers and Monica being in another universe, and there's no Captain Marvel. Three Avengers Secret Wars definitely isn't coming out in 2026.
Why do I care? There's no young avengers coming. So it's hard to be excited for a scene where they start being recruited because there is no roadmap. There is no connection. Marvel just keeps chucking in new characters, new threads, and in their movies, like Love and Thunder, like the Marvels, like Quantumania, they're just blowing through stories that could be interesting to set up things that they aren't prioritizing. And so that's what's starting to turn me off of the franchise, like the Marvels is, I feel like. Or it could be like a turning point for me, personally, because I'm just tired of seeing stuff get set up while present storylines are squandered.
[00:45:37] Speaker E: I think they're going to fast track Young Avengers. I think it'll be announced next year probably at Comic Con. I think it'll probably go into production, like at the end of next year, probably.
I think that's what's kind of some rumors swirling that there could be a young Avengers movie being made.
See, I think that Young Avengers probably is on the horizon. I think it's probably what's next for Miss Marvel. Probably what's next for, you know, Cassie Lang. All the young avengers.
I don't really know how they're going to get there because Billy and Tommy haven't really been resolved. And that's going to happen in Agatha.
And you have a couple other kind of characters that are a little bit fuzzy like Ironheart. So I don't really know how they're going to get there. But I feel like young Avengers has to be in the next two years or so, probably two or three years.
In terms of the post credit scene with Beast, I feel like that universe is probably going to be like part of the Deadpool Three plot.
I would assume there's going to be all the other X Men from the Fox universe will probably show up probably in Deadpool.
So I feel like that's probably what's next. I think that the stuff that was set up at the end of this movie is on the horizon. I think that's purposely why they put this stuff at the end of the movie. I think that they're going to focus on young Avengers now and they're going to focus on connecting to the Fox universe. So I feel like those are two big two big plot points that are probably important to Marvel right now just to kind of start setting up Secret Wars and making young Avengers kind of a significant thing. The only thing is I don't really know if there's much of an audience right now for young Avengers besides diehard Young Avengers comics fans. So that worries me a little bit. But yeah, I think it remains to be seen if it'll be like a movie or a TV show for Young Avengers, but I feel like that's got to be soon. Overall, I know people were like, there's a big argument between Beast being CGI or putting Kelsey Grammar in the makeup chair for 6 hours for like a 32nd scene. And I think it's fine that he's CGI in the end.
[00:47:46] Speaker D: That didn't bother me at all.
[00:47:48] Speaker E: I thought he looked pretty good.
[00:47:49] Speaker C: Yeah, I thought he looked yeah, I.
[00:47:50] Speaker E: Thought he looked fine. I honestly wouldn't even mind if they kept him like that in the upcoming movies.
I don't really know if Kelsey Grammar wants to do hours of prosthetics.
[00:48:02] Speaker A: That might be the determining factor.
[00:48:04] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:48:06] Speaker E: Obviously there's not going to be a ton of beast. I'm assuming Kelsey Grammar will show up like another, like, you know, in Secret Wars or something like that or in.
[00:48:15] Speaker B: Deadpool Three for like a second.
[00:48:19] Speaker E: Go ahead.
[00:48:20] Speaker C: I was just going to say I think hearing you talk about this, I guess. Yeah, maybe it does connect to Deadpool Three. I think what's bothering me about scenes like this is that it doesn't feel like Marvel is naturally building connections in these post credit scenes anymore. It feels like they're forcing connections to get to something that's already been announced.
I'm not like, oh, my God, what's next for Monica? I'm like, oh, great, Monica. We're not going to see her again till Secret Wars.
I don't agree with the whole way that they've been using post credit scenes in phase four and now phase five because it feels very artificial and it doesn't.
[00:48:59] Speaker E: Using Monica as like a bridge between the Fox and the six one six is a mistake. Honestly, I also don't sorry, go ahead.
[00:49:09] Speaker C: I was just going to say I don't like that Fox and young Avengers is like what we're focusing on when we should just be focusing on having a new adult Avengers team. It is still, to this day, baffling to me that there is no Avengers movie before Kang Dynasty. That it's just like, oh, yeah, let's assemble the new Avengers for the first time when they face the Thanos level threat. Like, a ten year old could tell Marvel that that's not how they replicate the success of the Infinity Saga.
[00:49:41] Speaker A: Well, I think that might be a good note to end this all on a final thought. So thank you guys for being here. Thank you all for listening out there. This has been another episode of The Cosmic Circle, the official podcast for thecosmicsircus.com who are you and where can we find you?
[00:50:00] Speaker E: I'm Drew Reed, and you can find me on Twitter at Drew Reed 10 99.
[00:50:07] Speaker C: I'm Uday. You can find me on Twitter, Instagram, YouTube at goldeninga 3000, and I'm Emily.
[00:50:14] Speaker D: And you can find me on Twitter at Emilymcd Eleven.
[00:50:18] Speaker A: And I'm Isla Ruby. You can find me at T-U-L-I-N rights on Twitter, and you can find all of us again at thecosmicscircus dot up. Thank you so much for listening. Good night.
