[00:00:17] Speaker A: Welcome to the Cosmic Circle, the official podcast for thecosmicsircus.com I'm Isla Ruby. We're chatting. Invincible Season Two And just a warning, there will be blood at Hemp. Spoilers. I'm joined by some fantastic people as guests today. Writers John Dotson, Izzy Friedman and Anthony Flagg.
[00:00:35] Speaker B: Hello.
[00:00:36] Speaker C: Hello.
[00:00:38] Speaker D: What's up, y'all?
[00:00:39] Speaker A: So, as I mentioned, there are going to be heavy spoilers and I think you're stronger than the temptation to turn back. Now, before we dig too deep into this show, I'm really curious, and we talked a little bit about this in the preshow, but are you coming from this as people who have read the comics or is your first exposure to this the TV show go first.
[00:01:07] Speaker C: Yeah, I didn't know.
I never read the comics. I didn't even know about the comics until the show came out.
I actually got the screeners for season one, like way before the show premiered, like a month before it came out.
And I was just sitting on this amazing program for a month, had no idea what I had, and then turned it on one day. And then that first episode ended with that banger ending and I was not ready, I was not prepared.
I fell into my chair and I've been hooked ever since. So, yeah, that was my exposure to Invincible.
[00:02:08] Speaker B: You got in earlier than me. I had my friends going at me for so long saying, izzy, you have.
[00:02:14] Speaker A: To watch this show.
[00:02:14] Speaker B: Izzy, the show is everything that you're about. You gotta, you gotta I've read all the comics. You would love the comics, you have to do it. And I kept being like, I'll get around to it. And I finally did like a month or two after everybody else did, and I went, guys, have you watched the show? It's fantastic. It's everything I'm about. And they're like, did you forget that we told you for months?
So, yeah, I'm same. The ending of that first episode knocked it out of the park for me and then the ending of the last episode just clinched it in. I've been thinking about it ever since.
[00:02:46] Speaker A: And this is Omni man, basically destroying his team, which you don't expect, right?
[00:02:55] Speaker C: Game of Thrones like finale.
You think, what a nice, sweet, upbeat family.
[00:03:05] Speaker A: Not at all.
[00:03:09] Speaker B: The fact that they set them all up, as it seems at my first viewing, I thought they were sort of parodies of I think they're more like deconstructions, but I thought they were parodies of real life or quote unquote, real life, but analogues with these superheroes that we all know. And the fact that you introduce them all and you're like, oh, I know these people, and then they're all just brutally killed off.
Stellar by the person who is the analog for Superman or Mark is slightly more of the analog for Superman, but still crazy.
[00:03:42] Speaker D: When I first saw it, I think it was like maybe when almost episode four is about to come out because the first season came out with three episode premiere. And a friend of mine's like, you should really pop in and watch this because he had read all the comics. He's a big Karkman fan. So then I'm like, you know what? Yeah, I'll give it a shout. And then, yeah, that hit. And I'm like, oh, yeah, I know what I'm doing with the rest of my month. Yep. And just I binged the rest of them right there. So I got halfway through the season and got to watch it weekly. And that was great because I didn't know it was going to end with a bus going split in half with Mark's Face, who expects that the way.
[00:04:24] Speaker B: That the title of the show is Invincible. And it ends with Invincible body horror. So you expect it to be like this coming of age of him getting his powers, and it ends with the most horrific use of his powers ever. Think about it every day.
[00:04:40] Speaker D: Speaking of the Invincible, the first episode, the end title coming at the very end of the episode. Jeez, man, that was so mean to tease that many times. I think I counted like nine.
[00:04:53] Speaker A: And we're going to get to that.
So, you know, we're all coming at it from different perspectives and I'm just curious, we don't have to spend too long on this, but what do you guys think about Invincible coming out at the same time as Gen V and Loki? Because I know we talked about that a little bit on our little discord, which you all, if you're listening, should join because it's free.
[00:05:19] Speaker C: I think it makes for amazing weekly television.
You get the brutality of Invincible. You get the brutality of a in a live action format, mind you, and then you get the weirdness of Loki every Thursday. I mean, it goes together like cookies of milk.
Yeah, it's a great lineup.
[00:05:56] Speaker B: I would absolutely agree with that. I think it's also really fun that we're seeing all of these very brutal superhero shows coming out at the same time. Especially because, and maybe I just not haven't been seeking out that content. But for a couple of years in the past, before Invincible and The Boys and everything came out, it was very sanitized superhero content that I was seeing. So this push in this direction, I'm loving it.
[00:06:20] Speaker D: I think the only thing I could think of before that was oh, or Hancock. But that was a comedy as well. Although Twist, there really wasn't like brutal with powers like Blade, sure, but not like Superman style dude who could really wreck, like seeing the dark side of what Superman could do if he really said, you know what, I don't want to help. So having seen in The Boys and Invincible, both from prime, it's interesting takes.
[00:06:49] Speaker B: And I love that they're doing that with a Superman type character because that gets to so much in the origin of Superman from the original comics that gets into so much about what Superman was about in its conception. Like this idea of what if there was this super powerful being. But in order to be a in certain ways, it's a deconstruction of the Ubermensch. Right? And the idea that to be that person, you would actually have to be incredibly kind in order to be that incredibly powerful person, to pull that off, you would have to be kind. You'd have to want to help people. And so invincible to take this and to split that character kind of between Mark and Omni Man and to have it be, oh, but what if you weren't? What if we did the opposite take of that versus what if you actually actively had to fight against that to be kind and to do the right thing. I just love that take.
[00:07:47] Speaker A: It's brilliant. And I think you said it so wonderfully too. I think you explained it great getting into the show itself. So we talked about the fake outs a little bit. Obviously, as the first couple of minutes of the show's opening, it's quite different than we expected.
What are your thoughts on that?
[00:08:15] Speaker C: Just like an invincible fashion. Fashion. They subvert. Any idea that you might have.
Kind of like the first episode of season one.
You think it's just a sweet, loving family.
What a nice what is the word? Wholesome TV show about this dad who raised a family and all this. And they take that same concept where you think you're seeing normal people like your normal, invincible and dad, but they're actually the bad guys and they're already taking over. Earth isn't an alternate dimension.
It's such a good setup that makes you on kilter right off the bat.
[00:09:18] Speaker A: Yes.
I was so confused while I was watching it because it's been a while since I've watched Invincible Season one. And the thing that was running through my head was just am I remembering all of this completely wrong? Have I just been really confused? And then I figured, okay, this is either a dream and I hate when it's a dream in no, this is this is Levy. This is alternate dimensions. So I started to figure it out, but I was very confused. And I think, John, you described it really well. Off kilter was the perfect way to put it for me.
[00:09:59] Speaker B: I had the same thing. I thought it was a dream. Like Mark was maybe having this whole what if I became my dad? But then we didn't have him wake up afterwards or so then my heart dropped to my throat. Or I guess it rose to my throat. I don't know how that saying goes.
Because I was like, what if this is like a flash forward and the show will be working its way towards that? But then I do think it's alternate dimension. Especially when we found out afterwards that he does join his dad in most universes, which is crazy for me to think about, but I think that we sort of touched a lot on how this show is particularly brutal. And I think this is just the most brutal way that you could open this, right, is to show, first of all, the voice acting. Like when they were together and that guy said, like, oh, my God, or something. That sounded so real to me.
I was genuinely and maybe this is just because everything that I was seeing, I was like, this is slightly more topical than I would like it to be. But it was so jarring to see Mark treat, for instance, treat Eve like we had seen Omni Man treat his wife like this, sort of like, oh, she's sort of a pet, was crazy.
And I was just kept thinking, Dear God, I hope that this is a dream. Even though I agree that whole it was all a dream thing is kind of kitschy to me. But I hope it is, because if this is where we are leading so I'm glad it's an alternate universe, but.
[00:11:32] Speaker D: Jesus, I thought for a minute he'd actually changed his mind and come back. Yeah, that's what I thought for, like, a split second. And then they had me so unfocused with that when they hit with the angstrom, and I'm like, oh, yeah, right, him.
He's a multiversal person. Okay, we'll see where this goes.
And then, yeah, they paid it off real quick, and it was nice to see him run around and do that. But good fake out, I'm sure, for the people that with the 30 month wait for the second season, totally forgot. Oh, no, there won't no, I know there definitely won't be a long wait, but it's just funny because they capitalize on the fact that people forgot in such a long period, and that's a good little twist to start it off.
[00:12:20] Speaker A: It makes you immediately interested and just so invested in what's going on. Izzy, you kind of touched on Mark's treatment of Eve, and I'd love to talk about that some more because it's in this opening and he treats her like a pet, and he also paralyzes her when Omni Man is destroying everyone else.
What do you guys think about that? Do you think that what does that show about.
[00:12:55] Speaker C: Mean? I think it shows that he's a mean spirited individual.
There's not a worse thing you could do than make somebody completely paralyzed just to sit there and be in pain. And just like, it shows the duality of that version compared to the character, I don't know, earth Six four six in this universe, whatever number it is, or invincible. But, yeah, yikes.
[00:13:42] Speaker B: Yikes is a good word for it, I would say. Yikes, absolutely.
The thing that got me about it was how he does it, sort of I mean, yes, it's obviously mean spirited, but he does it sort of lovingly at the same time. And it really got me thinking, like, oh, he has fully embraced his dad, sort of, yes, of course I love you and your mother. I didn't know if I was going to have to kill and or enslave you for 18 years of your life, but I totally really loved you that whole time. And the fact that he seemed kind of sad about it, he was like, you know, I did this so that maybe I can come visit her sometimes. I was like, first of all, dude, shut up.
He clearly has some sort of affection towards her, but it's been totally warped into his dad's perception of things. He is a Mini Me for his dad at this point, which perfectly sets up the rest of the episode, right? This next whole sequence where he's completely terrified of becoming his father, but also sort of trying to fill in the gap that his dad has left in terms of protecting the world.
I think setting it up that way, having it be we have an analog to or not an analog, a foil to his dad's relationship with his mom. We have him talking the way that his dad was talking at the end of season one, all of this going on, and then immediately smash cut to something else. It makes his fear seem so much more real of like, this could actually happen. You could turn out like this.
[00:15:07] Speaker D: The other thing that got me about that scene is, right while he's paralyzing Eve, omni man goes up to what do you call it, Rudy?
And he goes, you should have died at birth. Right when he pulls the thing and lets all the water fall out, I'm like, wow, brutal.
And then you could turn to Mark and he's paralyzing a woman. You're like, yeah, these guys are beyond.
[00:15:28] Speaker B: Saving and they want to get lunch afterwards.
[00:15:31] Speaker D: Yeah, they're like, Hurry up because I'm hungry. Like, yeah, it was too much, man. The whole thing.
[00:15:39] Speaker A: I'm still stuck on that comment that most Marx choose the dark side, choose being the same way that Omni Man is, and that's very unexpected.
[00:15:57] Speaker B: Well, I also think the second that I agree, I didn't see that coming at all. But the second I heard that line, I thought about the line which again, finale of last season has been haunting me forever. But that one line where he says, after all these years, after a hundred years, what will you have? And he says, You, dad. I'll have you. And it made me think, oh, is this a version of Mark? That really took that to heart and went, oh, I will only have this guy after however long.
I don't know. I'm excited to see where that goes.
Or even I haven't seen the rest of the season, even if that is an alternate universe, which I took it to be. But I don't know. Just most terrible father son relationship alive. I don't want to know what their little lunch hangouts are like. I don't know what you all talk over.
[00:16:50] Speaker D: Pizza. Remember? They always like to go to pizza.
[00:16:53] Speaker B: There you go.
[00:16:53] Speaker C: Taco Tuesday. Is there a Taco Tuesday in Invincible World?
[00:16:59] Speaker B: Yes. You Taco Tuesday and be like, wow, can't believe you paralyzed your sort of girlfriend crazy. Anyway, do we?
[00:17:10] Speaker A: So obviously, after that opening, there was no title card, but we, I guess, flash into this moment where Levy is being pulled right. With this green portal thing to, I guess, the prime, invincible world where Mark is struggling.
What do you guys think about know in that opening and in that struggle, what's he dealing with?
We've seen that it's a realistic he.
What do you think of the way he's dealing with that? Because we see him try to do good. We see him do the elephant guy, all these other good acts that he's trying to, I guess, make up for all the bad acts of his dad.
[00:17:59] Speaker C: Well, you talk about when we switch to their yes.
[00:18:03] Speaker A: When we're switching to prime invincible. Sorry.
[00:18:05] Speaker C: Yeah, when the story switches to, like, the you know, him and his mom, like, while they're trying to, like, I guess, like, grove over everything.
My takeaway on the rewatch and this is just my takeaway is he seems like a child, like an abuse survivor.
Him and his mom both seem like people that survived abuse, and they're grappling that thought.
It kind of goes hand in hand with Mark's thoughts about, will I be like my dad? Will I not be like my dad?
And it's just like, I got a lot of strong abusive metaphors in there. Metaphors or analogies, however you want to say it, but that was my takeaway from it. I don't know what you all thought.
[00:19:29] Speaker B: I would definitely agree with that. I think that one of the strengths of Invincible is there's. I think we've kind of gotten desensitized to a lot of superhero violence when in every other movie, like, Manhattan is decimated by aliens invading, and the superheroes save everything and buildings are going all over the place. We kind of get used to it. But, I mean, at the end of last season, that fight that he had with his dad, where, first of all, it's just very bloody, but OSIL. You're right. To me, it rang like they took a superhero fight scene and they made it into a domestic abuse scene, and it really hit ten times more because of that. And so this montage where we see what he could have turned into, we see him attempting to do something about it, but he's also having these flashbacks.
[00:20:17] Speaker C: Yeah. It's like trauma.
[00:20:20] Speaker B: Absolutely. It's trauma. And then also, there's that radiohead song playing in the background.
[00:20:26] Speaker A: Karma Police.
[00:20:27] Speaker B: Yeah. Karma police. And first of all, Karma Police, a song, literally, about fate catching up to you. And then he's doing all of these things. He's obviously trying very hard. And then there's the lyrics. I've given all of I can, and I've given all I can. It's not enough.
And then when we see the montage, the flashbacks that he's having to his dad and everything, there's the line, I lost myself.
So we're very much just setting up. He is free falling. He doesn't know what to do. He's just desperately trying to do something.
I thought that that was a fantastic montage to put directly after that insane opener.
It was incredible whiplash, but it really helps put you in his head.
[00:21:17] Speaker D: Yeah. I can't wait till you see episode four, then.
[00:21:21] Speaker A: Don't say that.
[00:21:23] Speaker B: I'm scared.
[00:21:26] Speaker C: I'm going to say second on that.
[00:21:31] Speaker A: Oh, no. That's very ominous. And I don't know how much more ominous you can get with Invincible.
[00:21:38] Speaker C: Is there anything more ominous than Omni Man?
[00:21:44] Speaker B: Oh, boy. Very true. Oh, God. You and me as people who haven't seen the second season all the way through. We are in this together.
[00:21:52] Speaker C: No, I mean, like, all seriousness.
It's a very compelling show.
It's an ominous show all around.
[00:22:02] Speaker D: Yeah. Think about the gda. I mean, they're always doing something in the background. At the end of the first season, we show that they're still doing the reanimate, and that has, from what I recall, that isn't immediately brought up, or it might be in the work or something. And it's also another interesting point for another character that I'm going to tease and leave alone right there.
[00:22:20] Speaker A: Okay, well, we'll talk about them, too, because there are some folks that are back in conjunction with that later.
[00:22:31] Speaker B: Sorry. The way that we have that whole very Mark heavy sequence, and then we very emotional, very cognitive. And then we immediately cut to the mall.
Well, yeah, but also all these lines back to back, like the line, I shit portals now and then scene after that. I'm sorry your dad got exploded.
Such an intense opening and then immediate comedy. I love this show. I love the balance of tone that it does there.
[00:22:59] Speaker A: I think some of it, too, is it's trying to not as much as it can not bum you out. It's like it hooks you and then they just want to pull you along and make sure you're still watching. It is so compelling. It's something about it that you can't stop watching.
[00:23:17] Speaker D: It's an advantage of animation.
[00:23:19] Speaker A: It is, right? You can do so much.
So, you know, we've talked about know, we've talked a little bit about Mark and what he's going know. Mark's relationship now with his mom is a lot different. And we get to see that in the opening a little bit. And just in this episode in general. What do you think is in store for them?
How is it different? Do you have any thoughts on Debbie?
[00:23:44] Speaker D: I have so many thoughts on Debbie, but I can't say any of them but they're in my review, so you can check that out. And that's what all I got to say right there for that topic. You can no, it's just simple yes, but I mean, yes and no, not too much. She just faces a lot of grief and then tries to do something about it, and then what happens because of it is like, ouch. Like mega ouch. But that's all I can but you just feel for the person, because that is one of the worst things that could possibly happen to someone that has been through what she's been through.
You'll see, it's a double whammy.
[00:24:31] Speaker B: Afraid. I'm very afraid for her. Okay, fantastic.
Sorry.
[00:24:38] Speaker A: Episode four is ominous, and Debbie has an interesting thinking.
[00:24:42] Speaker D: Episode two.
Okay, episode two.
[00:24:46] Speaker B: Every day I wake up and I live in fear.
[00:24:49] Speaker D: Okay, John, you got something for to look for next for.
[00:24:55] Speaker C: No, I mean, while just speaking on just on episode one, bringing it back to the abusive spouse stuff, the character seems to be grappling with that. It's like somebody who's grieving a partner that they thought was safe and they weren't safe at all, and somebody who they thought respected them but didn't respect them. He thought of her as a pet.
How do you like she's angry, obviously.
And I think you couldn't see that play out with her a little bit in there. You couldn't see that play out with Mark as he's trying to take over his dad's old job with what's the character's name?
Yeah, I mean, you kind of see with that. It's just like the whole episode is setting up that they're grief, they're angry, they're trying to recover from everything that happened and trying to start over in a world without a dangerous partner around.
[00:26:31] Speaker B: Yeah, I think you bring up a good point there of again, Mark is both trying to not become his dad, but also fill the void of his dad in terms of the protection he provided the world. Though obviously, it's not quite, um, and then this is actually something I do know about the comics. I'm pretty sure that Debbie in the comics is a housewife, and she's not in the show. And so I was waiting for her to react to the absolutely heinous line from last season. Your mother's more like a pet to me. Glad that she talks about that, because Jesus Christ.
But I think it's really interesting that change that they made from the comics to the show to make her it feels like she has her own life, because in the comics, if he says, you're more like a pet to me, it kind of rings slightly true for her because she doesn't have a life outside of him. She doesn't have other friends. And this I actually think it's more sad because it's like she spent 20 years with him. She feels like a full character. She has friends. She has a career. She has XYZ and she still is seen like a pet to this guy. So it doesn't feel like there is anything she could have done differently. It doesn't seem like there is anything that she could have done to be more independent. That's just how he was going to see her, full stop. And I think that's a really interesting look that the show takes as opposed to the comics.
And then obviously, of course, that she and Mark are sort of trying to grieve together, but they're also kind of trying to be strong together.
And she also clearly I mean, they're both not well, we have Mark in the beginning having his flashbacks, but we also have she sees a person with a knife in her kitchen, and she immediately freaks out, which you would naturally do. But it's her friend. Right? It's her friend, but it's framed that. This is the scary thing. She's clearly on edge. She doesn't feel safe anymore. She feels devalued as a person.
Dear God, I can only imagine.
[00:28:41] Speaker D: But not just that. She also knows know Olga was married to one of the people that Nolan killed in the first episode. So she was probably scared, thinking, oh, she's probably coming for revenge, because think about it, she pulls out a knife and she's like, oh, what are you here for? Hey, I just made beef shogunoff. Like, oh, you're not about to stab me. Thanks.
I'm so glad you showed up and scared the hell out of me.
[00:29:09] Speaker A: And they talk about stabbing poison.
They kind of dance around. Debbie atoning for her husband's sins, which is sort of terrible for her because she's had this terrible thing done to her.
Yeah, exactly. She's a victim. And I think know, you mentioned that she's quite different than the comics. I think that that was one of the big criticisms of the comics with Debbie, was that she was so one dimensional. She didn't have all of that. So I'm glad they made that change for the show because I think she's just so much more interesting to see to watch on screen and suffer, because we all like to see characters suffering, go through things.
[00:29:57] Speaker D: Love episode two.
[00:29:58] Speaker B: Man, don't say that. I'm going to have so much fun, but I'm going to be sad about it. Okay, now that oh, I was just going to say. Yeah. I just very much think it's really interesting to see Mark and Debbie have to atone for Omni man and he haunts the narrative, right. Even when he's not there, he's there, which I just think is really interesting and also plays into the themes of him being sort of an abusive figure because that brings very true to life. Like, they feel like they're there even though they're not there. So I think that it's a wonderful metaphor.
Not necessarily a metaphor, but you know what I mean.
[00:30:34] Speaker C: Yeah, I did the same thing. I was trying to find the right.
[00:30:39] Speaker B: Term, but there's literature, words.
[00:30:42] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:30:43] Speaker A: Layered show.
[00:30:44] Speaker C: The words. What are words?
[00:30:49] Speaker A: And this is not deep level, but this is just kind of maybe surface level. Do you guys think Olga is just back to chat and catch up, or is she there for any deeper?
[00:31:04] Speaker C: Well, I don't know, but I thought the Poison joke was kind of funny.
I think she was just there just to be there and I don't know, make peace. I mean, I'm not sure. I think she was there to be there, to be honest.
[00:31:23] Speaker B: I took it as like, a little moment of solidarity, especially after their interactions last season. It's just, oh, thank God that somebody else kind of gets the experience.
[00:31:36] Speaker D: That's what I was thinking.
Exactly. Just like, hey, I just lost my significant other. I know what it's like. I just came to support you. It's like, no ill will, but that poison joke was indeed funny.
[00:31:55] Speaker A: All right, so moving on a little bit back to Cecil, back to these superheroes that are protecting Earth. I guess in the wake of Omni Man going crazy and Invincible not really being mentally there and mentally able to protect the, um what do you guys think about Immortal being back? The Immortal being back?
[00:32:26] Speaker D: Pretty predictable. I mean, they brought him back once. What, the second time? It was just funny to see him die again a third time on the screen in the beginning of the episode. That was pretty great.
[00:32:35] Speaker B: He comes back. Exactly.
[00:32:37] Speaker D: No, just the way he chopped off his arm.
I just love how Omni Man's always go to is to just harate chop everything off.
[00:32:48] Speaker C: Yeah, I think he's basically the Kenny of invincible. He's going to die, like, every season and just pop back up for no reason.
[00:33:01] Speaker A: There's a counter somewhere.
[00:33:02] Speaker D: Yeah, there has to be.
[00:33:06] Speaker B: I was just going to say I also just think because of that, because he keeps coming back and Omnipotent keeps killing him.
The way that he interacts with Mark is super potent because you're talking to the guy that your dad has murdered several times, that is like a physical narrative manifestation of your own guilt that is confronting you and saying, I do not trust that you are not like your dad.
That is the most potent character. You could have to say that to him. The only other most, more hard hitting character that could say that would be like if his mom said that, which she's not going to, I don't think. But if at least so far in the story or Adam, I'll cry forever. But currently in the story, immortal is definitely the best character to confront him about that because it would just confirm his fears, I think. Talking about haunting the narrative, he literally haunts the narrative. He comes back every time he dies.
[00:34:11] Speaker A: You can't keep him down.
[00:34:12] Speaker D: No.
[00:34:14] Speaker A: What do you guys think of Bulletproof?
[00:34:17] Speaker D: You barely see them.
[00:34:20] Speaker C: I have a theory, but I. Can't talk about it.
[00:34:23] Speaker A: No future episodes.
[00:34:27] Speaker D: Honestly, they don't show up that much.
Just a little bit.
[00:34:31] Speaker B: Fair enough. Okay.
[00:34:34] Speaker D: I'm not lying to you. There's not a whole lot.
[00:34:37] Speaker B: Everything that you say, though, I'm searching for clues. I need to know what happens.
[00:34:42] Speaker C: I will say my theory argues is an argument that he shows up more than you think.
[00:34:53] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:34:54] Speaker C: And I'm not going to say how I might bring it up in private later, Red anyway, but yeah, I wouldn't be glad.
I can't say anything else.
[00:35:14] Speaker A: The people on Reddit are furiously listening to this podcast and looking for clues along with us, trying to figure out the rest of the season.
Okay, now I want to talk about Angstrom Levy because he's such a cool character and there's so much going on with him.
So this character pops up. Do you think he's good at first? Do you have any thoughts on that?
Is he a good guy?
[00:35:46] Speaker B: My interpretation was yes. I figured without knowing anything about him, I was like, maybe he's going to get carried away with something at some point, as these characters often do. But yeah, if you had interdimensional powers, you'd probably want to cure cancer in the lot. Everything he was talking and the way that he spoke about gathering the minds of people, and even at the end when he was like, he killed people I loved.
If you love alternate versions of yourself, you got to have a pretty good relationship with yourself. Self love that.
So to me, it very much did seem like while he may get carried away, he clearly, at his core, I think was trying to do something good.
[00:36:35] Speaker D: He said he was planning on making a utopia. Right. That was the thing. And why he paused it and why he intervened and tried to save Mark's life. Well, saved Mark's life and risked his own because he's like, I will not have blood spared to create my perfect world. So for him, it was like, I'll do the necessary evil work with these dumb guys because they're handy, but after this, I'll dump them somewhere and do the best thing I can do here.
[00:37:00] Speaker A: I think that was definitely the moment. That was the point that you knew that, okay, this version before he's had his brain squished and obseded with millions of memories or thousands of memories, he was good. He was altruistic.
He wanted good things. But also, at the same time, if you have interdimensional ability, I feel like it's 50 50. You could be a good person or like you're going to be a supervillain. There's no yeah, well, I mean, here.
[00:37:35] Speaker B: It literally 50 50 split. It's kind of going the other way now. Yeah, I was just going to say that I think that as somebody again, who hasn't seen the rest of the show or read the comics from that point, something I find really interesting about this character is that it seems that a lot of this episode is focusing on thematically, emotionally, is grief in a lot of ways. Trauma building up after that. And the fact that we have this guy who's the most hopeful character so far in the episode, and then he literally becomes a merging of like a grief for every alternate version of himself.
Thematically, that's crazy.
Literally, his brain is bulging with all of the memory and all of the deaths that he just experienced at once. He is his own memorial in a way that's crazy, especially in a narrative where we've established we're talking about alternate versions of similar people. And Mark is, I'm sure, at some point going to have to deal with the fact that in most other realities, he joins up with his dad.
And I wonder if there is even a part of him that sort of wishes that he was insane enough that he could, because I'm sure he does, in a weird, fucked up way, miss his dad.
[00:38:53] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:38:54] Speaker B: So I just thought that was a really interesting character and like an origin story, literally a physical manifestation of grief making you go crazy.
[00:39:06] Speaker C: It kind of reminds me of a doc ock archetype.
I think he is inherently good, but he builds this thing that overtakes him and gets into his head and then kind of makes him cross a little bit of boundaries that he might not have crossed before.
So I think he is a good character, but yeah, just mixture of bad.
[00:39:50] Speaker B: Yeah, I would completely agree. And I think that the moral complexity of it is something that really works in this narrative about how you can go from being a person with really good intentions literally wanting to build a utopia, which, I mean, in superhero stuff never goes well, but wanting to build a utopia to kind of it seems at the end, single minded focus revenge is what it seems like he's going after now, at least at the end of the episode. Right.
[00:40:16] Speaker A: In the post credit scene.
[00:40:18] Speaker B: In the post credit scene.
[00:40:19] Speaker A: Right.
[00:40:19] Speaker B: And so to have that again already in a narrative where it's about, oh, you could become this other person. You're not just a superhero, you could change over at any time.
Love that. Love themes.
[00:40:35] Speaker A: Love it when there's so, you know, we see these alternate versions of him, of Levi. We see him be the personification of all, as you put it, of the the grief and the memories from all of these other versions of himself. What do we think about the Mahlers and the many different Mahlers and now the two faced Mahler, one of them, one is dead and now one is obviously messed up. Is that going to have any meaning for further in the season?
[00:41:15] Speaker B: Well, I think he shits.
[00:41:19] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:41:22] Speaker C: Can I be honest?
I really don't like these characters.
[00:41:29] Speaker D: They're so annoying.
[00:41:30] Speaker C: Every time they come on screen, I space out and I don't know.
This show is great. It's a wonderful show.
Every time they come on, I feel myself like, you know, Jordan pills get out.
[00:41:51] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:41:52] Speaker C: Like I go into the sunken place every time they come on.
I don't know why.
[00:42:00] Speaker B: Well, I was just going to say again, you may or may not be able to tell this crazy about seams.
And one thing that I like a through line throughout all of Invincible is about family. Right. The one thing I'm really interested about them is the fact that they are one of them is the clone. One of them is the original, but they're also kind of brothers. I think that that's interesting, but it's mostly played for comedic effect.
It doesn't really tie in to anything else. So I agree. Whenever they come on. Okay. And now a plot device is occurring.
But I hope that maybe now that one of them is dead, I mean, they don't tend to mourn each other because they are kind of the same guy. But I hope now that one of them is dead and one of them is messed up, they may be a little bit more interesting to me because so far I agree. I just see them come on screen and I'm like, okay, so a plot thing is going to happen now and then we're going to get back to the stuff where I feel about got it.
[00:42:56] Speaker A: I assume there will be clones again and I assume you'll be able to tell the clones apart and like you said, it'll be a plot thing. It'll be okay.
[00:43:07] Speaker B: So we're getting and you guys can't.
[00:43:10] Speaker A: See what Red is doing right now, but he's gesturing as we're theorizing getting.
[00:43:17] Speaker B: A lot of meaningful gestures.
[00:43:20] Speaker A: None of them bad.
[00:43:22] Speaker D: Not a bad.
[00:43:24] Speaker A: Okay, so so, Izzy, I want to talk about Adam, eve and I know you know the special for the site. I didn't see it. I don't know if you saw John or Red. So I would love to talk about.
[00:43:39] Speaker B: Who'S witnessed my girl, who's seen her.
[00:43:41] Speaker C: I am sorry. I am not it.
[00:43:46] Speaker B: You did watch it.
[00:43:48] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:43:48] Speaker D: Check that out at some point for you guys mean. Izzy did a fantastic review of it. So it covers most the only thing I really like is that they didn't just give you that for no reason. I promise you it pays off later on when you watch this season. It really is. You should absolutely watch that episode. Take a moment and watch it. It's not even what is it, like an hour long? But it's worth it. It's worth it because it really quantifies that relationship she has and feeds a lot more to it and gives you more reason why Adam has her motivations. So, like some of the buildup you see from the tribulations of this special boom. You see the fruits of it almost quite literally in the season. So it's cool.
[00:44:36] Speaker B: Wonderful. Because that's been haunting me for months. I was like, this is going to pay off somehow, emotionally, probably.
So I can't wait to see that. But also, I just want to say that it made me ultra be mad at Mark at the beginning because we saw the entire origin story of my girl. I got super attached to her. And then we see him paralyze her at the beginning with her sick ass buz. Cut. Excuse you, sir, I take issue with you.
But yeah, no, I find it really interesting too. And this is something, I don't know if it's going to pay off or not, but just the scope of her power in that special episode was absolutely insane. And we got her motivation, first of all, of course, playing into the themes of messed up family, but then also her alternate motivations of not necessarily wanting to be a hero and just want humanitarian effort, et cetera, et cetera, which is obviously going to play back. I mean, they literally played that section where she's like, I don't have to be a hero, I could agriculture, et cetera, in like the little recap before this episode. So that's clearly going to be something. But I'm just really interested in the fact that she can control matter and she's still not necessarily a match for Omni Man as has been set up narratively. If there's going to be something about that, I'll lose my mind. If not, fine, but I just find that now.
[00:45:58] Speaker A: Now, John and Red, maybe you can't quite comment on this, but do you think we're going to see Omni Man return in the Think? Do you have any predictions for I.
[00:46:08] Speaker C: Cannot make any comment at this time.
[00:46:12] Speaker B: He's gotta he's the guy.
[00:46:15] Speaker C: I want to make any comment at this time.
All I can say is things more story. There's more story. Things happen.
People do things. Some people talk.
Sometimes they eat, sometimes they.
[00:46:35] Speaker B: Taco Tuesday. Is that what they eat?
[00:46:37] Speaker C: Yeah, it's a tailwind world. This time I can't elaborate. I'm very sorry.
[00:46:48] Speaker B: The next time that Mark interacts with his dad, every single cell in my brain will explode simultaneously. Not unlike what happened to that guy at the end of the episode.
But yeah, I don't know. You guys are privy to the knowledge, and I am not. I'm going to have to watch it weekly like a normal person.
Bow in pain.
[00:47:11] Speaker A: Must see TV at this point.
[00:47:13] Speaker B: Must see TV.
[00:47:14] Speaker C: Now, what I will say is that I want to be your brochure for episode four because there's so much to talk about this season, okay? And there's a lot to talk about this season.
[00:47:31] Speaker B: You keep mentioning episode four, and it's going to take weeks to get there. And from now until then, all I'm going to be thinking is, something happens in episode four.
[00:47:43] Speaker C: Stuff happens in general. Every episode.
[00:47:48] Speaker B: That tends to be how TV is.
[00:47:50] Speaker A: I'm assuming since the season is split into two I think there are eight episodes, right? Four episodes each. I'm assuming that episode four is like something very major. And cliffhangery.
[00:48:02] Speaker D: Yeah, there's like three cliffhangers, I want to say, like three concurrent ones between three storylines. Honestly, guys, we've been talking about it this whole time.
[00:48:11] Speaker A: No spoilers.
[00:48:13] Speaker D: No, we've just been talking about the whole time. You just think about I'll let you reanimalize.
[00:48:21] Speaker B: I'm going to have a notepad. It's going to be like Sherlock when he sees everything.
[00:48:27] Speaker A: In oh, of course.
[00:48:31] Speaker C: I'll say this.
I would argue episode four is not the most shocking episode.
[00:48:40] Speaker A: No.
[00:48:42] Speaker D: Three is. Three was my favorite, hands down. Three was probably I wouldn't say the best. Four was probably the best out of the four two and four. But three was my favorite, personally. Because you'll see why with three, just the way it opens, you can be like, I totally understand why Red was totally about this episode. It's an instant, like instant you will.
[00:49:03] Speaker B: Understand why a good season.
[00:49:06] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:49:07] Speaker B: Simultaneously excited and terrible.
[00:49:09] Speaker D: Well, we have to remember there's other things. Like Mark ran into other people in other so, like, we have to address that at some point. It's not everything is just on Earth.
[00:49:18] Speaker B: Yeah, not everything is just on Earth.
[00:49:20] Speaker A: Are you talking about Alan the alien?
[00:49:23] Speaker D: Because he was teased in the interview.
[00:49:26] Speaker A: He was interviewing so we can talk about him.
[00:49:30] Speaker D: I mean, there was the coalition. They were up there and he talked to him. It's a point. There's a point of it why the coalition exists.
That's a conversation that's very good to have.
[00:49:41] Speaker C: I'm not saying we're talking about that, but I mean, hey, the universe is very big and invincible. We could be talking about anybody.
[00:49:48] Speaker D: It's massive. A lot of things because think about it, multiverse is one thing, but we're talking about it just on the scale of Earth at this point because Angstrom is just doing it right there, getting everything set up. And then beyond that, invincible always breaks other bonds. Last season we went to Mars and we did a big, big mission. And that also comes into play, too, now that I just think about saying out loud, I totally forgot about that. But yeah, there's something really cool. There's something that comes back to there's just so many things.
If you just watch the first episode go back, there's so much in season one that does sneak in there. Yeah.
[00:50:26] Speaker B: It seems like the animation has taken a step up this season. So much scope is crazy this season. I mean, they've done a really good job at making it be it is multiverse. And then so much happening within this universe, and there's all these characters, but it still feels very balanced, which I think is difficult to do. So props to them on that.
And then the plot is crazy and the opening was a banger and there's radiohead. Oh, I'm so excited.
[00:50:53] Speaker A: And I think it's so different than a lot of the multiverse stuff we've seen. Comparing it to Marvel, comparing it to the yeah. Or and I'm thinking of the Flash with Nick Cage fighting the just that's on top of my mind. Right.
You know, this is very different. You haven't seen a room full of the same guy trying to solve the problems of humanity.
[00:51:16] Speaker D: You haven't well, you've seen I mean, we haven't seen it on screen, but yeah, but when you think about those, it's a nice council King's in another conversation that you could have as well.
[00:51:29] Speaker B: In a weird way, the first thing that my brain went to with it was everything, everywhere, all at once, all the different versions of you with all your different skills and knowledge, and you're.
[00:51:39] Speaker A: Trying to that's a great comment.
[00:51:43] Speaker D: That's a nice call out. I didn't even think about that. But yeah, that whole meshing of trying to do it all as one person is cool. I like the arrogance of him to say, why can't you just talk to each said? Because I need it all right here. Because I can see what the big picture is.
[00:51:56] Speaker B: Got to connect it. Okay, Sherlock, you're going to have brain damage, but sure, go crazy.
[00:52:00] Speaker A: I'm just waiting for Mark's hot dog fingers, because that's from everything.
[00:52:06] Speaker B: Whenever Mark gets the hot dog fingers. Fun.
[00:52:09] Speaker D: I'm trying to think about the multiverse, but there's not that much stuff.
[00:52:12] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:52:12] Speaker C: Yeah. Just so you all know, spoiler warning, hot dog fingers is the shocking moment in episode three.
[00:52:20] Speaker B: Yeah, there you go.
[00:52:24] Speaker C: That's the big reveal.
[00:52:25] Speaker B: It all comes down to a bagel in the end.
[00:52:28] Speaker D: Oh, man. Just like Spiderverse.
[00:52:30] Speaker B: That's like Spiderverse.
[00:52:32] Speaker D: Oh, that's a whole nother multiverse movie.
[00:52:35] Speaker B: Yeah.
There's been so many pieces of media right now that are multiverse related. That's where everything's going. And I'm really picky about it personally. So if they do it, but they don't really get into it, or they do it in a contained way, I'm fine with that, because I think that it's getting increasingly hard to do innovative ways to do multiverse a little bit, actually.
[00:52:57] Speaker C: I will say that it's fairly balanced in this.
[00:53:03] Speaker D: Yeah, they don't rely heavily on it, honestly. Most of the multiverse stuff you saw was that episode where all that came down. I mean, I don't remember seeing Angstrom pass this episode. To my knowledge.
[00:53:14] Speaker B: It's mostly getting coalesced into this one.
[00:53:18] Speaker D: Guy with his giant, because remember, they're splitting this. So, like, part one is going to be these four weeks, and then as of now, it just says early 2024. There's not a date or anything. They could put it out spring for all we know, so they're prepping us. But on the other hand, good news, I promise you I have really good news. I'm going to tell you right now. They are, like, way deep in production with season three, so that wait is going to be a lot shorter, which I already had the conversation with them, but what I've seen with the artwork and everything, they're really moving along.
[00:53:53] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:53:54] Speaker A: And Red, you found this morning, I think, because we had talked about it, too, you found that.
Had they just wrapped post on season three, or were they in the process?
[00:54:07] Speaker D: I saw a picture that somebody who did some of the art design, like, the know, like, the backgrounds, and it was a really cool shirt shows Mark sitting there eating, and then there's, like, a ship flying in, and it said season two and three. And it was a rap party that was held last week.
[00:54:22] Speaker B: Season two and three and three and three. I have hope in my heart.
[00:54:27] Speaker D: Okay, so I've also saw some resumes while I was looking at them that said that they were in the middle, started on season three. Back in the earliest one, I saw May, but most people were like June. So, like, already June, there's, like, people, like, the second stage of animation. They were already working on it. So production is moving quite quickly. So I think the reason why they're doing the split is to wet the appetite so he can say, look, we gave you something in 2023. We promised something, and then, boom, here's something in 2024 so that we can turn around and give you something really quick next year. Bang.
[00:54:59] Speaker A: They promised that, too. I think the creators promised that there would never be that long of a delay between seasons ever again.
[00:55:07] Speaker D: They got screwed.
Yes.
But honestly, it worked great. The special was a fantastic addition to it all. I hope they do more. It'd be cool to see something else like that. You have this multiverse concept. You could give me a special. You know what? Right now, they can inject a special right in between part one and two and just develop on angstrom and then come back. And then we go back to the story of Invincible, because ultimately it is a story.
[00:55:32] Speaker A: Well, I think that is a great moment to maybe end our Invincible conversation on. I know we could probably go for many more hours, but Lizzie will have feelings if we don't wrap it up. And there will not be happy feelings.
[00:55:49] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:55:52] Speaker A: Thank you all for listening. This has been the cosmic circle, and this has been our time chatting about Invincible season two. It's been just a speck in the span of our life, but I'm happy we've spent it together.
Who are you guys and where can we find your writing?
[00:56:10] Speaker C: I am John Dotson. You can find my reviews and other pieces at the Cosmic Circus.
You can also find me on Twitter, X, whatever bird is called John Moviewatch. I am also on Blue Sky, kind of. I'm trying to be on Blue Sky at Johnson. Yeah.
John Dodson writes.
[00:56:44] Speaker B: Again. I'm Izzy Friedman. You can find the stuff that I write on Cosmic Circus.
My social media stays between me and God. But maybe I'll make a blue sky for writing and put that out there.
[00:56:59] Speaker D: I'm Anthony Flagg. You can find me at Rodova Underscore on Twitter. Never going to call it X.
[00:57:04] Speaker B: Never going to call, never.
[00:57:07] Speaker A: And I'm Isla Ruby. You can find me at T-U-L-I-N Rights on Twitter because it will never be X. And I'll be going down thinking like the titanic violinists.
You can find us
[email protected] and I'll see you later.
