The Cosmic Circle Episode 10: Moon Knight Episodes 1 and 2 Discussion

[00:00:17] Speaker A: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the cosmic circle this is the official podcast for thecosmiccircus.com where the site's writers get together to lot about comic books, Sci-Fi and fantasy films and TV series. Today we're discussing the debut of a brand new Marvel hero on Disney plus Moon Knight. There is a spoiler warning because we will be discussing everything from episodes one and two and speculating on where we think the show is going to go in the next few episodes. I'm Uday Kataria, writer for the Cosmic Circus and joining me today are my fellow writers drew, Isla and Brian. How's everyone doing today? [00:00:53] Speaker B: Hi, I'm Drew. I'm doing pretty good today. I'm excited to talk a little bit about Moon Knight. [00:00:58] Speaker C: Hi, I'm Isla Ruby. I'm very happy to be here to talk about Moon Knight. [00:01:02] Speaker D: Hey, everyone. This is Brian Kitson. I'm so excited to be here. I can't wait to get started. [00:01:08] Speaker A: All right, guys, then let's just jump right into it. Are you team Steven or team Mark? And watch out, there is a correct answer here. [00:01:15] Speaker B: I think it's a pretty easy answer for me. I think I got to be team Steven just because through episodes one and two, we don't see a ton of Mark outside of his reflections in the mirror. We don't really know his antics. We don't really know much about Mark yet. Steven, I feel like it's going to be tough for fans because we've seen so much of Steven in the first two episodes that when we get that disconnect back into Mark, I feel like people are going to be missing Steven a little bit. And I feel like Marvel's going to have to try and figure out how to balance these two. And I feel like they have a pretty good balance with the way they talk to each other in the mirror. But I think right now I've got to be Team Was. He was really funny through the first two episodes. [00:01:57] Speaker C: So right now, as far as the first two episodes, I am Team Steven and I just kind of want to hug him. I think Oscar Isaac has done such a phenomenal job at portraying him and I hope he gets the Emmy for how he's doing, at least nomination for how he's doing all of this stuff. I think that Steven is a really interesting way into this main character and I think that he's kind of the underdog. He's got all this stuff that he's missing from his life and things going on and he can't catch a I just I'm rooting for him in that respect. [00:02:37] Speaker D: It seems like we are all team Steven here. The thing with what we've seen so far is Steven is just so will. He was so excited about going on that date and he's just like the normal, everyday person that people can relate to. And I think that it was very interesting that they use Steven as kind of this jumping off point because a lot of comics that you do start off with, like Mark Spector and Steve. I was right. Steve is very much that underdog, and for him to kind of put him in the narrative position almost makes him more likable because you're learning everything with him. So I think that I can't imagine anyone not being Team Steven in this aspect. [00:03:23] Speaker A: I definitely agree with that. After episode two, I saw a lot of people on Twitter talking about how they were so, like, Team Mark. And I understand how people could find, like, irritating or grading in some respects, but I just don't understand how you can be Team Mark after the first two episodes, because Steven is like you guys said, he's so lovable, he's so earnest. And Mark has just kind of been like a dick in the mirror to Steven for the last three sorry, last two episodes? So I don't know why anyone would be rooting for him when we haven't really seen enough of him to have a good opinion on him. [00:03:59] Speaker C: We also don't know that much about mark. So know we know he's got this secret storage locker and he's got weapons and money, and he doesn't seem like he's up to all that much good stuff, like he's trying to get a divorce from his wife all this other stuff that steven doesn't quite seem to have that baggage going on. [00:04:21] Speaker D: And, you know, something that also I think makes interesting is that we see Mark in the first episode, and he's talking with Stephen in the mirror, and he is kind of angry, and he's kind of like talking to this petulant child. But at the same time, when you're trying to be have some self preservation and trying to survive the situation to do whatever you have to do, wouldn't you also be kind of annoyed? So I feel like they set Mark up to be kind of this annoying, angry altar, but it's kind of hard when the other person is kind of this bum bumbling buffoon. But I mean, still team Steven all the way. [00:04:58] Speaker B: So what I'm hoping is I mentioned this. I'm really hoping that the way they've kind of set up the relationship between Stephen and Mark, I really hope that we continue to see that grow because in the beginning, it kind of seems like they hate each other and they have to learn how to work together to be successful. Because I think Stephen's going to be kind of let into Mark's mission. I think eventually Mark is going to begin to understand Stephen. And we kind of saw that at the end of episode two, where Mark was kind of walking Stephen through how to relax while he's not in control because Steven was in the mirror, like, oh, I'm freaking out. So I'm kind of hoping that we continue to see the growth between how Steven can help Mark kind of not be so tense, and how Mark can help Steven kind of be more confident in himself as a hero. Because obviously, Steven's going to be Mr. Knight, and I don't believe that they're going to make Mr. Knight always be this comedic relief like, while Steven's always going to be a comedic relief character. I feel like Mr. Knight is going to be somewhat akin to Moon Knight, but not as know. Mark kind of seems like the really serious character who's badass, and then we're going to get Stephen, who's more comedic relief, but can also be badass eventually. [00:06:14] Speaker C: They're a really great balance of each other. So that I think that you nailed it, Drew. When you mentioned that Stephen was comedic relief in a lot of ways, and Mark kind of seemed like a little bit more badass, I think there's that moment where Steven throws the gun at, I guess, not mercenaries, but harrow's guards while they're on that windy mountain road, and that's hilarious. And then in episode two where he's kind of it looks like he's fighting himself while he's in the suit, you know, to the outside world. And I think just all of that is really funny. [00:06:53] Speaker A: So then why don't we go into the differences between Moon Knight and Mr. Knight now? I was planning on saving it for a little bit later, but they've clearly changed Mr. Knight from the comics just based off of episode two. I'm sure that he will develop more into the character from the comics. So have any of you guys read Moon Knight comics? And do you have any strong opinions on what Marvel has done to Mr. Knight? Because I know that a lot of comic book readers on Twitter are very upset about it. [00:07:20] Speaker B: So I'm not super equipped with knowledge about Mr. Knight. I know a little bit about Moon Knight. I've seen some people be upset. But I think what people need to learn is that Marvel likes to develop their characters. I mean, we clearly saw that in Hawkeye. Maya Lopez is not even being referred to as Echo yet, and we've seen a whole series with her. And I feel like in her show, she's going to develop into the name Echo. I feel like that's what Marvel is most likely going to do with a lot of their new heroes. I don't know if Kate Bishop is going to take up the Hawkeye mantle. I feel like it would be smart for Marvel to leave her as Kate Bishop, but I feel like what's going to happen is I feel like Marvel is probably going to continue to develop Steven and develop Mr. Knight. I think it feels like Mark I think how they set it up is they want to develop Steven and develop Mr. Knight while also leaving Mark's development as, like, a mystery in the background. And I feel like we're going to continue to learn more about Mark. It's just going to be in later episodes. I feel like Mark is already more of, like, a developed moon knight, more so than how much of a beginner Steven is with Mr. Knight. [00:08:27] Speaker C: I think it's really interesting that you mentioned that, Drew, because Steven is new to this world, right? This is the know we're learning with him as he learns that he's this avatar of this Egyptian god, Kanshu, and he's got these powers and stuff. And I think that, like you said, as Stephen grows more confident in that, he will be able to use his powers and his know in different ways. And I saw something. I think it was I don't know if it was on Twitter or what about the suits that made a lot of sense to you know, Mark has this moon knight suit that he summons to fight the jackals in episode one. And I think there's a line in episode two where Layla is, like, yelling at Steven, summon the suit. Summon the suit. And when you think about Know, you're not thinking, okay, summon a superhero suit. I think when someone is saying to you, summon the suit. Well, he conjures up a literal suit because he doesn't know any better. And I think that's kind of endearing and fun. [00:09:35] Speaker B: I think that you make a great point, Isla, is that he like and that kind of gives us a look into the way Mark or Stephen thinks, like, his how how literal he is in a sense, because she was like, summon the suit. And he literally summoned a suit like you'd wear to a job. And I just feel like that was such a telling point for, like, mindset on everything, just because I feel like it's going to continue how Steven is, like, the comedic relief, like, very literal. And that kind of relates to how Khonshu is like, oh, the idiot is in control. And I just feel like there's going to be a really funny dynamic that's going to continue between Mark, Khonshu and Steven. [00:10:23] Speaker D: What's interesting to me is I thought the exact opposite Mark seems to be this, you know, if you know his backstory from the comics, there's some military background. So he plays by the rules. And so the rules set up by Kanchu are kind know, summon the suit and be this superhero. So, of course, you summon the suit that the god tells you to summon. But Steven is opposite. He's kind of going on his own know, he works in a museum, and he's just trying to make it through life. So he's going to kind of play by his own rules in that aspect. So I think that it definitely is trying to show the Steven has a greater personality. So of course you're going to summon a three piece suit. I will say, having read a lot of the comics when they had first announced that Mr. Knight was coming, alex Perez over here at the Cosmic Circus definitely spot on with his exclusive. I was like, yes, we're going to see Mr. Knight. This is going to be awesome. I thought maybe it was going to be later in the season. As we're developing, we're going to start to get him. And I'm not mad at the change. I thought it was very funny. It was very classic. But it's also not exactly true to the comic run. But in the comic run itself, mr. Knight and moon Knight, they don't always explain a lot of how they're different or how they come to be divided or why one time he's wearing a suit, the next time he's wearing the moon Knight suit, they don't explain a lot of that. So at least this kind of gives it that more grounded backstory that maybe was missing. And maybe the question that someone would have asked, they decided to answer before someone asked it in a series that maybe isn't as popular of a character. [00:12:08] Speaker B: So I have like a great analogy with that. I feel like what it's going to be like eventually. I feel like Mr. Knight is kind of going to be like spider man, where he can be a hero, but he's always gonna make jokes and little quips about things. And then moon Knight is more of Captain America, who's more of like this straightforward military, like, very serious. And I feel like that'll really play really well into the dynamic between each other, like between Mr. Knight and moon Knight. Yeah, I just feel like it just works really well. [00:12:42] Speaker D: And in the comic series, too, mr. Knight's actually the superhero that works with the cops in a Batman sort of way, like we saw in the know, he works with the cops and he goes to them and gets cases and he goes and he works them. And then when he's down know, the sewers, all of a sudden he's the and the cops don't kind of put together that they're two different people. Mr. Knight is this private eye that doesn't have a lot of boundaries when it comes to what he's going to do to get the case solved. And moon Knight is the superhero. So maybe eventually in another series or another movie, we see that play out. [00:13:21] Speaker C: Before I forget about it. And maybe I should have mentioned it before. I wanted to take a second and plug Vin's guide to moon Knight and to the comics that we have over at the cosmic circus, because it's an amazing guide and it lays out everything that you should read, whether it's the lemur run or what kind of if you're excited about moon Knight. So you should take a look at that. If you haven't and you're listening to that. I think one of the fun things with an adaptation and that's what this is, essentially, is an adaptation is it's not gospel. You can kind of pick and choose the things you really like. And I think that you can see with this show that they've really taken a lot of liberties with the comics while keeping some core things intact, but discarding what didn't work and didn't seem to be very well planned. [00:14:11] Speaker B: So going back to what Brian was saying, how in the comics, mr. Knight works with the cops a lot and how moon knight's kind of more so the brawler, I feel like that could also work really well in the TV show. It's very obvious and apparent that mark is better with his fists and with his skills and talent, and Steven's better with his words and his social skills. And I feel like that could work really well. Kind of like becoming a team. How Steven kind of realizes that mark is better with his fists and better with his skills. So whenever there's a fight that's needed, steven will go to Mark. And then whenever mark sees that there's a diplomatic situation that needs to be handled, he can go back to Stephen and let Mr. Knight handle it. And I feel like that could work really well in the TV show. [00:14:59] Speaker C: Do you guys get the sense that they are playing up Steven as kind of the brains and Mark is kind of the brawn of the personality? [00:15:10] Speaker B: Absolutely. I think that's exactly what they're going for. I think that's what they're going to continue to do. Obviously, I haven't seen the next couple of episodes, and some people have seen them, so they might already know, but I have not seen them. But from what I'm seeing in the first episodes, I think it's what they're doing. And I also think it would be a great idea if that's what they end up doing. [00:15:29] Speaker D: Yeah, definitely. I think that there's going to be some logical division between that. I'm not quite sure how they're going to do it, but it is interesting know, khonshu refers to Stephen as like a parasite and the and so maybe it's this. As he develops confidence, he'll bloom into the brains of the operation. Uday, what do you think? [00:15:51] Speaker A: I agree with you guys. I have not read moon knight comics, so I can't speak to the comic accuracy, although I know that they have changed Mr. Knight quite a like. What I kind of want to talk about is so as someone that hasn't read the knight comics, I'm kind of confused on his different personalities because the show is making it so that mark is moon knight and Steven is Mr. Knight. But I thought that in the comics, those are like four separate personalities. I thought that moon knight was a separate personality from spectre. So, Brian, could you speak to that a little bit? [00:16:31] Speaker D: Yeah. So in the comics, it depends on the run. So this past month, we did a comic book or our first comic book club, and we did the mia run. And in that one, there isn't a lot of indication of how they separate each one. But from what I've seen is a lot of times Mark and Stephen and Jack in the comics kind of switch depending on the situation, but they can all become Moon Knight or Mr. Knight, depending on what situation that's needed. Not that they're actually separate personalities. I think that that is also kind of up for interpretation of how you read the comics. [00:17:10] Speaker B: It doesn't seem like there's a limitation on Steven or limitation on like, from what it seems like is that they can conjure up whatever they want to conjure up. It's just that Mark has that one idea of what his suit looks like and then not steven had an idea, but obviously he conjured up the suit, like the business suit. So I feel like that's probably what they're going to continue to roll with. But I don't see a situation why Steven would need to conjure up the Moon Knight suit, and I don't see a situation where Mark would need to be Mr. Knight. I think it would be more feasible if Mark was to be like Mr. Knight. But I think what Marvel's trying to develop is both of their personalities and both of their superhero personas. So while it was a change from the comics, I feel like maybe it could end up being a smart move, especially if Steven kind of grows into the character. But we'll have to see it seems. [00:18:02] Speaker C: Very superficial as far as the suit right now to me, because there doesn't seem to be a big difference in their abilities. We see the white, literal three piece suit, and it doesn't have not the battering, the crescent dart, and that seems to be the only difference. They both seem to have the strength. They have the powers that come from Kanchu. But I'm curious to see if that continues through the series. [00:18:34] Speaker B: So I think what's going to happen is all the personalities can conjure up whatever suit they want. Like going back to what I said, I think I'm wondering if Mark can eventually I'm just wondering if they can kind of they all have the same power through contrary, but they can kind of conjure up whatever suit they like. If if the Jake Lockley character is ever introduced, if he would conjure up his own suit, which I feel like is probably what would happen is each personality would have its own kind of superhero personality like persona. I feel like that would make the most sense. What do you guys think? [00:19:12] Speaker C: Is there a third suit in the comics? I seem to remember there only being two, but I could totally be wrong. [00:19:18] Speaker D: There's only two in the comic series. So I was actually sitting here thinking the same thing. Andrew took the words out of my mouth is that if this continues know this third personality comes out. Does that mean that there is a new suit that they can create or does? At that point, did the suits matter a little bit less. I'm not quite sure. [00:19:42] Speaker A: I do want to talk about Jake Lockley because I know that everyone's wondering if that altar is going to come out in this series. And there was a new TV spot that showed Oscar Isaac in a jacket and he was wearing like, a black hat, but it was a baseball cap, not like a like one of those taxi driver hats. So people thought that that was Jake Lockley. And then also I saw speculation. People think that Jake might have been the one to ask the girl out in episode one because people think Mark wouldn't have gone to the gift shop as Steven, and he wouldn't have asked a girl out because he's so focused on his mission for Khonshu. And clearly Steven didn't remember asking her out. So I think that that could be a hint at Jake. [00:20:30] Speaker B: That was something I was really confused about from episode one, was I don't feel like Mark would be the one to ask the girl out. Maybe if he was trying to get Steven a girlfriend or something. I don't know. And I hope that's touched on, but I think it would certainly make a lot of sense if there was a third personality that neither Mark or Steven knew about yet. That was kind of a completely different personality from both Stephen and Mark and maybe a little bit more like I don't know a ton about in the in the comic book runs, but it kind of feels like he's like third on the list of rankings of personalities. It always felt like it was like Mark Spector, then it was Stephen Grant and then it was Jake Lockley. [00:21:12] Speaker C: But I could be in I think it's the first episode that there's a big hint about Jake, and I think it's when he's in the museum and he know this reflection, and this was in the trailer, and we see three Oscar Isaacs in the reflection. And I think that's kind of an interesting hint as far as where maybe things are going. And I think the idea that maybe it was Jake who asked out, not Donna, but the other museum girl is really interesting too, because I think Mark still cares for Layla because he doesn't want her to know Khonshu's avatar we see in episode two. And I think there's still some maybe feelings there. [00:21:54] Speaker A: I also do think Jake Lockley is coming because if you guys notice in the end credit sequence, when Oscar Isaac's name comes up, his face is split into three different like, there are three faces coming out of his face, basically. And I think that has to hint towards Jake Lockley appearing because that seems to imply that he has three personalities, not just two. So speaking of Layla, what do you guys think of her so far? [00:22:24] Speaker B: I honestly thought we didn't see enough in the first two episodes. I get that it's a very unique situation. We're in with Moon Knight because we're dealing with two characters that are the same person. So they're trying to set us up with that kind of slowly and lead us into it and lead us into the fact that the two main characters in the show are the same person. So I get that there wasn't a ton of Layla, but I think if she's going to be an integral part of the rest of the season, I think that she needs to be in the rest of the episodes, and I think that she will be. I think it's going to be like a tandem now. I think we're going to see a lot of Mark and Layla and Stephen and Layla and see how the relationship kind know grows between all three of them. So I liked Layla, and I just hope that there's more to do with her. I just hope she isn't kind of like this. I don't want her to be one dimensional, and I hope that there's more to her. [00:23:23] Speaker C: I really like that she's a really strong woman character. I think that her introduction being the phone call and her basically giving Stephen a hard time for not contacting her and giving him shit, I think that's really fun and really cool in an interesting way that we meet her. And I think the second time we meet her where she's on this bike, that she's know his phone, I think that's really interesting too, because we start to have all these interesting things about her character revealed. She's a person who is kind of used to maybe dealing with someone who rides around town on a motorbike and she's not fazed by these multiple identities and stuff like that. So I think as we learn more about her, it will be a lot of fun. [00:24:10] Speaker D: I will say that there is not a lot of her in the first two episodes. I mean, we get the one scene in the first episode where she's talking to him on the phone, and then we definitely get to see more of her in the second episode. But from that, I agree with Isla that she is this really strong character that is going to be a great asset and really cares for Mark. I mean, how many people would fly around the world to find you in London if they didn't care? And Grant, I know there's the story of the divorce and stuff that brings her there, but there is a deeper connection. And I am so excited for everyone to see more of Layla as the show progresses because she truly is going to be one that people remember. I agree. [00:25:00] Speaker A: I think that Layla is a really strong character. She has an energy to her that I really like. And I like her interactions with Steven, and I can't wait to see her interactions with Mark, because I obviously think she's a little bit more delicate with Steven, and I'm kind of excited to see the kind of relationship that she had with Mark, even before all of this moon knight stuff came around. [00:25:21] Speaker C: There's a moment that's really emotional between her and Stephen that I think is just so telling and so interesting. And it is where she tells, you know, she she believes him, that she believes he doesn't know what he's talking about, about this Moon knight suit, that they'll figure out a way out of there and that kind of gives him almost the confidence to summon the little three piece suit. And I think that was a great moment. [00:25:47] Speaker D: I will say, too, one of the things that I do love about her is I think that she solved well, she doesn't solve, but she changed a lot of the issues that we see with a lot of the writing for female characters in a lot of, you know, where Scarlett Johansson was a love interest mostly in age of Ultron. And while Layla is this love interest for Mark, there is this she is adventurous and she's intuitive and she's solving these problems and she seems to be kind of the more prepared one than Stephen. And she shows up and she tells him to summon the suit and she's very badass. And I think that that was really cool to kind of see this not this danceloan distress that maybe has been an issue for some of these different love interests who aren't always superheroes in the Marvel Cinematic Universe. [00:26:43] Speaker B: Yeah, I must feel like it would make sense for Layla to get powers in kind of a don't, obviously. I don't know how that's going to work or if that ever even happens, but it almost feels like she'd be like a perfect candidate. And I almost feel like I would like to see her get some sort of powers, maybe something relating to the Egyptian gods that we haven't seen yet. But who knows? I just feel like if there's a lot of female characters and I feel like can start to do more with them instead of just like you said, Brian, instead of them just being kind of a love interest. I feel like Marvel can get creative with these and really have them have their own story too. [00:27:25] Speaker A: Next, I want to talk about Arthur Harrow and his connection to Amit. So I know that as of episode two, we don't really know what's going on with Harrow. He obviously has this mission. He obviously believes in resurrecting Amit and letting her judge humanity. Personally, though, I don't think that he's Ahmet's avatar because he said that he's imbued with a fraction of her power, but he hasn't exhibited any power of his own. He only ever uses the cane to judge people or to summon those jackals. So what do you guys think is the nature of his connection with her? [00:28:01] Speaker B: I think the cane is the connection. I think what he meant by has a fraction of. Her power is her power is kind of the cane is his source of power through her. I don't know if he actually has any powers himself, but honestly, I don't know yet. I haven't seen any more of the episodes, so I'm not sure. But from what I've seen, my guess is that his power comes through the cane, especially when he was summoning the jackal, when Steven and Leila were running away. It kind of seemed like it came specifically from the cane. [00:28:39] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it clearly did come from the cane. But I'm kind of wondering if she picked him, like if she gave him the cane or if he just happened upon it in the desert, or like I wonder if she knows what he's doing and if she supports it. [00:28:54] Speaker C: I'm very curious about the cane and to see if it is how he has his powers, because he's clearly able to summon open up this it looks like a portal or I don't know what you want to call it, this purple thing of energy that releases the jackals. And I'm curious also if the cane is what has allowed him to essentially bewitch an entire town in the Alps and bewitch all these people in his what did Steven call it? An evil magician's man cave in, know that seeing that in relation to his power will be very kind of very neat. I don't know. What did you guys think about how he was introduced to I want to kind of raise that question. And you don't always see a villain introduced first. [00:29:44] Speaker D: I just want to speak real quick about the connection with Ahmed and stuff. I definitely think that this is like maybe the traditional movie trope where he is imbued with some powers to be able to find this god, and then the god's going to turn on him because he served his purpose. So I think that's where this is going. I don't think he actually has any real powers of his own. But I love what you were saying, too, is that opening scene still gives me chills of the breaking of the glass and putting it in the shoes and just like this way to show dedication to Ahmed. I don't know. It was very interesting and it really set the tone of, like, this villain is different than what we've seen before. He actually felt villainous from the first moment I saw him. [00:30:41] Speaker A: Something that I love that they're doing with Arthur Harrow is that they're actually developing him before the fifth or 6th episode of the series. One of my biggest problems with the Disney Plus series is that I feel like the villains can be very poorly developed. I mean, the only villain that's been around since the beginning of a Disney Plus show is the Flag Smashers and Falcon and the Winter Soldier. And I don't think that they were particularly well developed because most of their storyline had been cut out in editing. And so when Harrow, like, was talking about his mission to serve Ahmed in the first episode, I was literally in shock. I was like, I can't believe Marvel is letting this character start to develop in episode one of this six episode series. So I'm really excited to see where he goes. And I'm really into the mythological aspects of this show. So I can't wait until Amit is eventually resurrected because I have not seen past episode two, but I am 100% sure that there's going to be some godly battle in the final episode. And if there isn't, I'll be sad. [00:31:39] Speaker B: So for Ethan Hawke to take on such an unknown character, just such an unknown role, and do it so well, has been so, like, I really like how Arthur Harrow is being really I think Ethan Hawke is such a big part of him being played so well. I don't know if the character itself would have landed as well if another actor would have played Arthur Harrow. So I feel like that's, like, really big props to Ethan Hawke. I feel like he's just such a good job at just playing this character. And even for him to be kind of an unknown, it seems like, you know, he's an unknown character. I mean, if I can recall, he's not even in the Moon Knight comics that much. He kind of seems like this original character and just like his story, it's so interesting. But it really feels interesting because of the way that Ethan Hawke portrays the story. And I think it's so reflective of the actor and how he's playing the character. [00:32:37] Speaker C: So from what I've read, Ethan Hawke was very much involved in the development of the Harrow character because, like, you was he really wasn't in the comics at all. He was just kind of, I think, in one issue. And he was like an evil geneticist. And obviously he's taken on a much bigger role and a much more significant role. So that's really interesting. [00:33:01] Speaker D: I do think, though, something going back to what Uday said is that we talked about developing this bad guy from episode one, this villain, but in a way, isn't he more like Sylvie in, like, not like that she ended up being a villain, but that she was like, the initial problem we have to solve. And then there was someone behind it all. I think that Ahmed's really going to end up being the bad guy in the end. And I'm worried that when that happens, will Haro be thrown off to the side and story left kind of hanging, or is he going to follow through with the whole series? That would be awesome, too, because I think that there is so much to this character and I want to see more of. But like, do you think it's more like a Sylvie situation? [00:33:51] Speaker B: So I really don't feel like they brought Ethan Hawke on for him to not be the big villain. I feel like he's going to be the villain all the way. Could what I could see happening, what you kind of mentioned was Harrow goes all the way through and kind of summons Ahmet. Then Ahmet comes to be and Harrow kind of realizes his wrongdoings and maybe helps Moon Knight. I could see that in the end, but I don't know, I just don't feel like that's what's going to happen. I feel like you bring Ethan Hawke on, such a big actor to be the villain all the way through, and maybe I don't know if they could save actually summoning Ahmet as a season two thing if they end up doing that. But I just feel like it makes too much sense to have Ethan Hawke be the villain all the way through. [00:34:42] Speaker C: What I will say is I'm not sure about so Moon Knight is six episodes and I feel like we're all going to want more and I feel like we're all going to want more and to learn more about Harrow's story and all these people's. So it's I think it's kind of when this ends, it'll be a little bit bittersweet. [00:35:01] Speaker A: I see two options for like just because in any media, whenever there's some kind of villain like this serving like a higher power, either he's going to resurrect Amit because again, I fully believe Amit will be resurrected. They would not have started teasing her in episode one to not resurrect her in this show, even if it's like she's half resurrected and then Moon Knight stops it, I think we will see her in some form. And so I think either she's going to be resurrected and immediately kill Harrow and do that thing where the big bad doesn't care about the people that have helped them achieve their goals, or she will imbue him with her power and make him her Avatar and they'll kind of rise together. And I would expect that because like Drew said, it's Ethan Hawke. They're not going to throw away Ethan Hawke after building him up for like five. [00:35:55] Speaker B: Yeah, like, I don't think this is a Defender situation where you kill Sigourney Weaver halfway through the season. I just don't see that mean. Obviously, I don't think he's going to be a good guy. He kind of seems like he's lost in his devotion and I don't know if they're going to kill him. I just really wonder what the end game is for Harrow because obviously we know that Moon Knight is going to go on beyond this season, even if it's not a season two. He will be somewhere else in the MCU, which feels really weird to think about because this in no way feels like an MCU TV show. But back to Harrow, I just don't know what the end game is for him. And either it's going to be super predictable or it's going to be super unpredictable. [00:36:38] Speaker C: I'm curious about harrow if he became a he before he kind of got the cane and before he kind of was almost corrupted by Ahmed, or if he always had kind of a villainous streak to him. So I hope that we learn more about his backstory and how that all came to be. And I agree with you that we're going to want more Moon Knight, and I think the director, actually, or the show creator, Jeremy Slater, and I think he's the guy who did Fantastic Four and all that other stuff, but he doesn't want you to hold that against him. I think he has said that he would love to write more stuff about Moon Knight. [00:37:20] Speaker A: So touching on what Drew said about how this doesn't feel like an MCU show. I do want to talk about that because this is by far the most disconnected MCU project in, like I can't think of an MCU project that was this disconnected since Phase One, because, I mean, even stuff like like, still had Peggy cameos, and it was still tied to Howard Stark, and even Falcon was in it. So do you guys like that? And do you think that there are going to be MCU connections pop up, or do you think they're going to keep telling their own story? [00:37:49] Speaker B: I think it's going to be its own story until the end, and I think maybe at the end, we'll get, like, an MCU connection or something. I feel like what they're going to do is they're going to start segmenting the MCU. It's not going to be like, all the Avengers come together at once. It's going to be segmented into I feel like Moon Knight will probably stay in the mythological world with maybe, like, Ghost Rider and Blade and all that stuff. So I feel like maybe at the end, we could get a connection to something like like maybe just a semi connection. I do like how disconnected it is, and I do hope that more MCU origin stories kind of take that route. But I feel like this is still an MCU show, and Marvel's ultimate goal for this is to kind of get him involved in the MCU. So I think it would be a little bit Marvel not, like, unmarvel like, to go a whole entire season without kind of giving us an MCU tie in. Maybe it could come sooner than later. Maybe it'll come at the end through a post credit scene. But I do feel like I don't see any way how Marvel doesn't kind of give us an MCU tie in or kind of tease or something like that for the future. [00:38:59] Speaker C: This stands alone very well on its own outside of the MCU. I think that's really a testament to the good world building and the storytelling that we've seen so far. And there's been, as far as I can see, like, one greater MCU Easter egg. And that's in the second episode. And I have notes here because of course, you know, where the suit version of Moon Knight, mr. Knight is fighting the jackal guy. We see a bus go by, one of those London double decker buses, and it has the GRC on it. You know, something that we saw in The Falcon and the Winter Soldier and all those other, you know, that's the organization that was supposed to help after the Blip. So I'm curious if we'll learn more about the there. [00:39:50] Speaker D: This show stands really well by itself. It does. And you don't really need all of the connections. However, Island's right, there are a few different connections. And there's some peppered in the next two episodes that we've seen with screeners, they're like blinking, you miss it moments. They're just part of the scenery, the background, they're throwaway lines. That for hardcore fans. You're going to notice that and be like, oh yeah, there's the sprinkle. There's the cherry on top. This is the reminder that we're in a world that is larger than just this show. And so that's the cool part. And I'm glad we're in an MCU world now that we could do that. We can have movies like Eternals where you didn't have a lot of connections, other things, but it still felt like it was part of the world. Moon Knight is definitely kind of the start of the Supernatural and kind of like the Marvel Macros series that I did when the website first started. We're going to be really divided into multiple levels at this point. And each level is going to be so distinct, and it's going to have its own vibe and it's going to have its own story. And they'll come together eventually in a secret war type project. But this is the Supernatural world, and I think that he's okay kind of staying here in this playground while it's growing and eventually crossing over when needed. [00:41:14] Speaker A: I like the lack of MCU references. Honestly, I'm surprised that we haven't even gotten, like, a verbal reference to the Blip. I wouldn't mind some verbal references, but I also like the background Easter eggs. And at this point, I wouldn't be surprised if the first proper connection we get is in an end credit scene to set up the next thing. And I would really like that because one of my biggest issues with the Disney Plus shows right now is that they all feel like they only exist to set up something else. Very few of them, I think, have actually been solid, enjoyable rides on their own. Even like WandaVision, which is my number one. Marvel Disney Plus show kind of fell apart at the end, like it tripped over itself trying to set up three different movies in its finale. And so I would really like Moon Knight to just kind of stay away from that and do, like, more typical movie thing where Marvel just focuses on making a good movie set in a wider universe because I don't think the Disney Plus shows have been that. [00:42:13] Speaker B: So what Marvel needs to do from the beginning is, I think Marvel needs when they're going into a show, they need to decide, is this show going to be for itself or is it going to be for building something else? Loki very clearly was not a show for itself. It was a show for building something else, like the timelines and the multiverse and all that. It's very clear that Loki became a show that was to set up everything. While I feel like Moon Knight is a show that is very dedicated to being itself, standing on its own. And I feel like that's probably what Marvel needs to keep going with. And I feel like that's probably what we're going to get with Miss Marvel. Miss Marvel might be like a setup for the Marvels probably sometime, some point towards the end. But what I'm feeling like is with I'm just hoping that she Hulk and Miss Marvel and some more shows we get are kind of on their own while Marvel at the same time dedicates some. You know, I feel like event shows like Secret Invasion where they're going to have so many different characters in that that could be dedicated to building something like to building up to an event. I feel like Marvel needs to start deciding. They need to start doing shows that are based on building towards events and start building shows that are to build up a character. [00:43:30] Speaker C: I think in the case of Miss Marvel though, it's hard to have that standalone know, you have the main character and she literally idolizes and, you know, superheroes. So I think in that case, it's hard to have it standalone from the MCU. And I think if Marvel was going to have any show or any upcoming property, do think, you know, Moon Knight is the perfect choice for that? [00:43:52] Speaker A: See, I think that's why I'm excited for these origin stories on Disney Plus, because Miss Marvel doesn't have to be disconnected from the MCU. It can't be because she is such a fan of superheroes. But I don't think Miss Marvel is going to set up the Marvels. I think it's just going to firmly establish Miss Marvel. And I think that like Drew said, secret Invasion will be the show that actually sets up the movie, which is a smart play. And Drew made a great point about Loki. The reason that I hate Loki is I thought it was an enjoyable show. I think it's entertaining. I will enjoy rewatching it. But I feel like it has very, very little to do with Loki. And he was just like the character was a vehicle that they used to introduce the multiverse and King the Conqueror, when really what's going on has absolutely nothing to do with him. And that really bothers me. And so that's why I'm so glad that Moon Knight is just focused on the character and not on the wider universe. [00:44:49] Speaker B: Yeah, loki was very much like a pawn in the grand scheme of Know. I'm going to make reference to The Defenders again. The one thing that I really liked that they did in the beginning of The Defenders is the beginning of the show is its own setup. You didn't get a setup for the show before it. What Marvel needs to start doing is instead of setting up shows in their own shows, set up what's going to happen in a dedicated show. If you're going to have a show like if you're going to make something like The Midnight Suns, don't set it up in four different projects. If it's going to be a series, have the first episode dedicated to bringing everybody together. And I feel like that would cure a lot of Marvel's problems, where they're constantly feeling like they're setting up things. I feel like Marvel needs to start setting up things in their own projects. And while maybe that would take an extra episode or two, instead of it being six episodes, it could be eight episodes. I think that would solve a lot of their problems. But back to Moon Knight, I definitely just really appreciate how this is kind of its own thing. And I know everybody's saying that it's such a cliche thing to say, oh, it's its own thing. But I think it's become such a definitive point of the show and it's made it such a standout, is that it's telling such a great story and it's developing its own characters, and it's focused on where it's going, and I think everybody can really appreciate that. [00:46:16] Speaker D: I think that if they did something similar to how they set up phase one where you got the tease at the end of almost every film leading up to The Avengers, that was just like that post credit tease of, oh, we're coming together, and then spending the first 20 minutes, half an hour of that film really establishing it. You can have those connections. I do think that I agree with what Uday said, that these origin stories are going to be very specific, and they're going to really explore that character. That's why I'm so excited about SheHulk. Even though it's going to have some connections to the Greater MCU, it's going to be really focused on who is she Hulk? Who is Jennifer Walters? Why do we need to care about this character that nobody knows? Well, I mean, besides fans, but the general audience may not know who she is. And those origin stories on Disney Plus are really going to be its own thing and really kind of I think it's going to take Disney Plus and Marvel Studios shows to the next level, and I think they're going to start finding their rhythm this time. But also, it makes you think, too, that is this also the first production for Marvel Studios on Disney Plus? That we've seen where production hasn't been interrupted because of COVID in some way. And maybe that's also what we're seeing here, too, is why this one feels so great, is because we're not seeing something affected in episodes being cut and productions being changed because of the pandemic. [00:47:41] Speaker A: Speaking of production design, because I do agree. I think this is the first show that hasn't been shut down by COVID. But what do you guys think of the costumes, both, like, the moon knight costume and the Mr. Knight one? Because I think the moon knight costume might be like the best MCU costume that they've done yet. [00:48:00] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's definitely up there. The moon knight costume is just so well made. I mean, it just looks like it doesn't feel cheap. It feels super complex, and it feels real. It doesn't feel like a CGI suit. Sometimes we get a lot of CGI touch ups on suits. I don't think people realize that. If you see behind the scenes suits and then compared to what you see in the movie, I think the moon knight suit looks the most believable, it looks the most realistic, and that just shows how great the costume design has been to show for both Mr. Knight and the moon knight suit. It's just top tier. [00:48:44] Speaker C: I agree with that. I think that the little details in each suit, for example, so the moon knight suit, he looks like a mummy, and that's really cool, where you can see the bandages that are reminiscent of Egyptian mummies. And I think the crescent dart in the center of his chest is just a really cool detail. I think in the comics, the crescent darts were on his hip, and I think that was it's not as fun of as an effect as the choice that they made to have it on his chest. I think the hood is really interesting, too, the glowing eyes. Obviously, they're not part of the costume, but they all work together in tandem. So I think it's just really well done and detailed. I think that kind of the textures on the three piece Mr. Knight suit are really beautiful. They look real. They look like something you can touch and feel. And they don't look cheap. They don't look like CGI. They're not just shiny fabric like in the so called homemade spider man suits. [00:49:44] Speaker D: Absolutely. These costumes are just out of this world. It was not something I ever thought that we would see from a television show when we're used to things like the flash and arrow and this costume. That Mr. Knight and moon knight costumes, they're beautiful. The fact that they changed moon knights to look more like a mummy and pull into that Egyptian vibe and really kind of sell that, the Egyptian vibe and serving Egyptian god, that was such a cool take. And props to whoever designed that. And I would love to shake your hand because that was such a cool little touch. [00:50:32] Speaker C: I think her name is Megan Casperlick, the costume designer. [00:50:36] Speaker D: Thank you. Megan did a great job. And then the Mr. Nightsuit, the embroidery, or I think I said the texture that's like on the collar. The little things that you almost don't notice until the light catches it. And the fact that you have one individual in that suit, in two different suits, and they have such different personalities just based off of how you see them. And Mr. Knight's mask with the rip down it and how they really played that up, it looks like it looks like you've had your forehead stitched and you've been through an accident. And that's just like such a cool touch. Am in love with these costumes. I was in awe when there was a leak back in the summertime, and I was like, oh, that's so cool. It's even cooler. It's even cooler on screen. It's just flawless. I'm in awe. [00:51:30] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, the material on the Mr. Night suit, it looks so and there's such a difference between the Mr. Night suit and the Moon night suit. And they look so like you can still tell that it's the same person, but there's just so much detail. It's the little detail that really stands out in the Moon Night suit. There's so much detail there, and there's so much detail in the Mr. Night suit. And actually, I really think that the gloves are really like I really like the gloves in the Mr. Nightsuit. I just think it kind of ties everything up. I don't like I'm with Brian on this. I think I'm really obsessed with the costume design. [00:52:09] Speaker A: So one last question for you guys. What are you working on for the site right now? [00:52:14] Speaker B: So currently I just got back from my convention. I'm working on a Comic Con convention review. I'm also working on a couple of Batman articles, actually, for the future of Matt Reeves universe, which I'm actually really excited to put out. I think I'm definitely working really hard to make sure that my ideas for those articles I'm sure of my ideas, I'm working on that. And I might be working on depends on Doctor Strange. I might be working on some Doctor Strange articles after that movie comes out and maybe Moon Knight. We'll see what happens. [00:52:51] Speaker C: So Star Trek Mission Chicago happened this past weekend, and it's still happening because we're recording this on the weekend. So I'm working on some articles about that. We have Star Trek Strange new worlds coming up, and there's going to be a lot of fun stuff on the cosmic circus coming out of that soon. [00:53:07] Speaker D: I have my hand in a lot of funny pots right now. So there's a few different multiverse of madness articles I'm working on. I'm working on a really awesome piece about dissociative identity disorder and how that is seen and how well is it represented in Moon Knight. There's a lot of Marvel stuff coming up, so just look forward to all those pieces that we have coming out. I'm so excited to see all Isla's and Drew's. They sound awesome. Yep. [00:53:37] Speaker A: I'm also working on some Scarlet Witch related articles. I've got like three in the works, but two of them are about Agatha. Hoping to get those out before Multiverse of Madness we'll see in the Thick of Finals right now. And I'm trying to get press access for a convention, so hopefully that works out because that would be really exciting. So that about does it for this episode. You guys can check out more Moon Knight content on thecosmicscircus.com right now. And stay tuned for our finale discussion episode, which we will hopefully be doing soon after it releases. In the meantime, subscribe to our patreon for access to discord conversations and look for more news and reviews from us on Thecosmicscircus.com. You can also follow us for updates on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook at mycosmiccircus. Thanks for listening.