Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 <silence>
Speaker 1 00:00:16 Hey everyone, welcome back to the Cosmic Circle. This is the official podcast for the cosmic circus.com, where the sites writers get together to chat about comic book sci-fi and fantasy films and TV shows. This week we're gonna be discussing the Hawkeye finale, which is sadly our last M C U content for 2021. I'm Uday Kataria, writer for the Cosmic Circus, and joining me today are my fellow writers, Aila. Brian and Emily. How's everyone doing today?
Speaker 2 00:00:43 I am great and I'm so happy to be here. How are you?
Speaker 1 00:00:47 I'm doing pretty well.
Speaker 3 00:00:48 Hey, it's Brian. Um, it's a pleasure to be here as always. Can't wait to get into it. Hi,
Speaker 4 00:00:53 I'm Emily. I'm really excited to be here and be talking about Hawkeye.
Speaker 1 00:00:56 So let's go ahead and launch right into the discussion then, because Marvel gave us an amazing Christmas present this year by bringing Vincent Donofrio's kingpin into the M C U proper. What did you guys think about the reveal of Hawkeye's? Big Bad.
Speaker 2 00:01:09 Hi. Sorry, I should have said this was Ila earlier, but, um, I, I am so excited we finally got to see Kingpin. You know, there's been all this buildup for weeks and weeks. There were rumors or speculation and then we finally get to see the big guy in person. Um, you know, at the end of episode five, Ronan, we got that little video still and that wasn't much to go on. But here we see him interacting with Eleanor. He's menacing and it's just, it's awesome. And I, I'm gonna bring the question right up to the start. Is he really dead? Because that's just what I wanna know.
Speaker 3 00:01:44 I think that it was completely awesome to see him again. I will say that after the way that the Marvel Universe ended on Netflix, it was kind of like a pipe dream to think that we'd ever see these wonderful characters again. And so even though the tease at the end of episode five was not what I had hoped for, I was expecting a little more of a cliffhanger, not just like a picture off screen of a phone. But it was so awesome to see him back. And to answer your question, ILA, I don't think that you bring back someone after all this time with as much anticipation that you do to kill him off after one episode. So I definitely think that we'll be seeing him again and a lot sooner rather than later. I think
Speaker 4 00:02:18 It was, I was definitely really exciting seeing Kingpin. I didn't start the Netflix shows when they actually came out, so I actually just started Daredevil last night. But my brother was really excited to see him, so I kinda like went off that excitement and I think he's absolutely still alive 'cause he's such a big character and the reaction that I saw on like Twitter and everything when he came back from fans was just awesome to like watch. So he's definitely still alive, I think. I
Speaker 2 00:02:43 Hope so because you know, his death was off screen too. We just, you know, heard the gunshot in a thud and I, I would think that he would get a much um, a much more glorious comic book death.
Speaker 1 00:02:54 I, I agree with that for sure. I was kind of in shock like when, when Maya pulled a gun on him and then we heard a thud. I was just like, no. Like absolutely not Marvel's like you've learned like you know better by now than to kill Kingpin. But I think going back to what Brian said about like the cliffhanger in episode five, not feeling like good enough, I definitely agree with that. It was very anti-climactic to like bring kingpin back by just saying like, oh that's kingpin. And seeing like a blurry photo of him on the phone. And I think you can tell that there was supposed to be an actual scene with him. I think the scene with him and Eleanor that started episode six was supposed to be the ending of episode five because, because first of all like scoopers have been talking about how like there would be a scene with Kingpin at the end of episode five. Like they were saying that for weeks or months. And to me, like a photo on a screen isn't, isn't a scene. But also what I noticed at the start of episode six was he had that conversation with Eleanor and then we immediately hear what Eleanor just said, like playing over the phone speakers. To me that was really repetitive, but if they were supposed to be in two separate episodes, it would make a lot more sense.
Speaker 3 00:04:02 You know, a absolutely. I think that, I don't know why they changed it. I don't know what creative thought process they had, but that felt that beginning of episode six. But Eleanor and Kingpin definitely felt like the cliffhanger you're supposed to have at the end of episode five, specifically the clink of the walking stick and and seeing his like kingpin's feet walk across the floor, that would've been the perfect like cliffhanger leading up to that scene of like, oh my gosh, he is back in a big way. And I think that would've been a better way to end episode five. I think
Speaker 2 00:04:30 His, his intro even in in six was the Cane right. And I know I was like my jaw was on the floor seeing the cane. I was just like so excited to see that.
Speaker 4 00:04:38 Definitely. I think he now that like you Brian, now that you say that, I think he definitely, that scene should have been in episode five for sure and 'cause it did feel repetitive having them have that conversation at the beginning of episode six.
Speaker 3 00:04:51 And you know, ILA going back to what you were saying too about if we're gonna see him again and the way that he kind of ends this series with Echo potentially shooting him, I mean that is almost pulled straight from the comic group pages where Echo does shoot him and in the comics they show that he's alive. I believe that he's blind after that and don't quote me on that, but there is a scene where she kind of pulls the trigger. So I definitely think that this proves that like he's not going anywhere, he's gonna be back for Echo. He is gonna be back for event eventual daredevil project. I hope to kind of see him sprinkled in, you know, like she hawk and if we get Hawkeys season too, all of these different pieces of the puzzle for the street level heroes. And I think that like the distinct level of street level heroes is so well made for him as the bad guy that we can't get rid of him yet, that we need to see him kind of try to get back his kingdom again because he is lost it. I think that's going to be really interesting playing out in the next couple episodes. So a hundred percent he's coming back. I don't think anybody should worry about that.
Speaker 2 00:05:48 Well there's gonna be fallout, you know, besides his, his potential death or you know, if he is, if he's injured in some way. Eleanor made that menacing remark that she kept insurance, she, you know, she had an escape patch and Eleanor at the end of the episode she went to jail and she's gonna try to get out of jail presumably she's gonna need a lawyer. I don't know, you know who she'll call but she has all that evidence against Kingpin. So I think there will be repercussions for, for him if he's still around and you know, I think his kingdom will falter a little bit and his there will be cracks in his organization.
Speaker 3 00:06:23 I think we're gonna see Kate go after him because even though she knows her mom's not a great person, I think that in a way she's going to process a lot of like what happened to her father, what happened to her mother as a result of Kingpin and kind of like how we saw Vitamin deal with, with this idea of getting revenge and being a hero. I think we're gonna see a little bit of that play out whenever we see Kate next because she's not going to be happy with losing everything this, this comfortable life that she had and that is an easy target for her to go after. So I think that you're gonna see a lot of that pandemic play out.
Speaker 4 00:06:54 Yeah, I think she's definitely gonna blame, like it's very obvious that she's gonna blame Kingpin for a lot of it. And I think Eleanor, I also think Eleanor like won't go to jail, especially with the amount of information that she says she has and she's gonna need protection too. 'cause if she's gonna come after Kingpin that's gonna be a dangerous game to play.
Speaker 1 00:07:11 I'm just trying to think like how, you know, more Netflix characters could be reintegrated into the M C U, but I know that people mentioned Kate and Jessica teaming up at some point in the comics and I think it would be a really cool angle if say we get a Hawkeye season two, which I definitely think we should get if Kate calls Jessica and like hires her as a PI to like track down Kingpin or maybe like track down her mother if Eleanor like manages to escape.
Speaker 3 00:07:35 You know, I wrote an article about it back in, I wanna say October, about how the bishop security could lead to Jessica Jones and in that though I did talk about there's, there's a good run where she enlists Jessica and she's actually a very big fan girl of Jessica and wants to kind of prove her worth kind of like how she wanted to prove to Hawkeye that she's a capable adult and also a capable hero. And the dynamic between the two of them is Jessica and Kate and the comic is similar to Hawkeye and to Kate. So I would love to see that in a second season. I also though would think it'd be really cool if we got a twist on the Hawkeye idea where maybe it's Hawkeye Kate going out with Mockingbird and Clint staying home with the kids and seeing a different dynamic and never how that plays out. I think that'd be really cool to see too. For season two, I
Speaker 2 00:08:19 Really enjoyed the partnership that developed between Clint and Kate through, through the season and I felt like the payoff at the end was just, you know, of them working together and teaming up was so great and it would be a shame to to entirely lose that in a Hawkeye season too. So I hope that whatever they do, if Kate you know, goes off and, and tries to get revenge against kink and for you know, the debts again that her father had for everything with her mother, I hope that uh, Hawkeye is involved in some way.
Speaker 3 00:08:50 The dynamic is really interesting. Something that I, I'm really interested about Kingpin that I wanna learn more about I think that we're going to is why did he want the watch? Because in the first episode the Tracksuit Mafia specifically went there to find this watch. What about Mockingbirds identity? Did he want so bad or like what was on the watch? Like why was it so important? I, I know what it was but we never learned like what the significance to Kingpin was. And so I think that has to come back eventually in some form to get like that very cohesive story. I don't know where that's gonna come at though.
Speaker 2 00:09:23 Do you think that that was actually a directive and direction from Kingpin or was that just Maya freelancing because she wanted to track down the Ronan, you know, who who she thought killed her father and she found this connection between Ronan and and Mockingbird.
Speaker 3 00:09:38 The fact that the boss wanted it. I mean I guess we never got a clear definition of who they were talking about. Could it have been Maya? I think that's totally possible. Or was it from a higher up directive because I guess I don't know how Maya would've known that the watch was connected to Ronan. I guess there's just, so there's still a piece there that's somewhere I wanna know why, why was Mockingbirds watch so important?
Speaker 1 00:10:01 So to me this is kind of like, this is kind of my problem with some of the Disney plus shows, although I, I don't know if it's personally like one of my issues with Hawkeye is I just feel like these shows have very little plot like Hawkeye, it had a plot but like it feels like the show was mostly character development, which is fine 'cause I really enjoyed it. But I know that there are people saying that they wish that the show could have been binged or if, or it was more episodes because like I agree like, like there's not a lot of plot, it's mostly kind of just like Kate and Clint vibing for most of an episode before some stuff happens in the last five minutes.
Speaker 2 00:10:35 I think that, so I guess to address whether or not it could be better binged, I actually, so I totally disagree on that. I think that, and I'm, I find myself very surprised that I actually think this 'cause I'm, I'm a Bender. I think that, you know, we really benefited by speculating over the mystery and what was gonna happen next. You know, there was excitement about it, there was, you know, we were spinning theories, we were trying to figure things out and I thought that was a really fun part of the, the Hawkeye experience and you know, lowkey and the other series from this past year as well. So I, I think we need to marinate in the story for a week to try and find all these little things that we're not sure about rather than binging it and then just totally forgetting about it once it's done.
Speaker 3 00:11:18 Yeah, I definitely agree that I do not think that this was a show that could be binged and I don't think that the Marvel shows are also set up for binging themselves. I guess we had the Marvel Netflix shows and those were bingeable, I don't know, but the, the, the Marvel Disney plus shows seemed to really benefit from like that slow burn of being able to like every week and go to you know, the cosmic circles discord and talk with people and be like what does this mean? And the speculation and being able to come up with ideas for articles and just for discussions and you know, even in my family every day up until the next episode we're like, oh do you think it was this, could it be kingpin? Is it someone else that's behind the curtain? And I think that is some of the beauty of the Disney plus shows like Ila said that week to week speculation and we, you do kind of need that because I think that if I watched Hawkeye in one sitting I would love it still 'cause I loved the show but then it's just over the way it ended, there's nothing huge to speculate on.
Speaker 3 00:12:13 You know, there's some left over strings but I think that that that I was right, you definitely need that week to week viewing pleasure.
Speaker 1 00:12:19 So I think that's an interesting take because for me the Netflix shows were entirely un bingeable because they were such slow burns and also they were so overwhelming and violent that, I mean I started watching Daredevil and Jessica Jones when I was like 14 in 2015 and I could only watch like half of an episode of Daredevil at a time because it was just so like much at once. And so I would never, I would never binge those. It would take me like weeks to finish them. Whereas I feel like some of the Disney plus shows are much better week to week. And then there are some that just feel like a bit drawn out. Like I feel like Hawkeye could have been, well not binged because I still like week to week but I feel like Hawkeye easily could have come out with two episodes a week and I kind of would've liked that better. And not that we're talking about what if, but what if 100% should have been released all at once, like week to week did not help that show at all.
Speaker 3 00:13:10 I mean you're totally right but Emily what do you think? Do you think that it should have been like a week to week kind of thing or do you think that it should have been all at once?
Speaker 4 00:13:16 I really liked the week to week release schedule. I think for some of it it did work and for some of it it didn't like Uday like you said. Um, what if I agree like that should have been like released like all at once that we to, we did not help. What if there was like kind of like an overall story I guess with the watcher kind of gathering like all the heroes to help fight Ultron? I think with Hawkeye I liked the week to week and I think like talking about it having with those discussions about like what's gonna happen next, the speculating like really does help these shows helps everyone get hyped up for the next week for it.
Speaker 3 00:13:47 You know what you said about the what if is very interesting because I also agree that all shit came out at one time. I found myself sometimes watching it and being like, why is this important? Or like why am I investing another half an hour in the story when it feels like it wasn't adding to anything? And I feel like it did not add to the overall story until the very last two episodes and then I was like oh this is why I'm watching these stories. And not that like each episode isn't supposed to be its own story and supposed to like enjoy it for the ride that it was. But I think at this point we've come so far with the M C U, every connective tissue feels exciting. The arrows that were PIM arrows in uh Hawkeye and that I, I geeked out every time I saw them and what if didn't have a lot of that. So I think like if you had that binging aspect of it, I would've enjoyed it a lot more than feeling like I was wasting nine weeks of my life.
Speaker 4 00:14:33 Yeah 'cause and they also, they moved an episode from the first season of what If to season two, right? There was an episode, the episode with um, Gamora and Tony uh, was just moved to season two I think so that we were missing that piece of it when it got to the final episode.
Speaker 3 00:14:47 Right? And then for some people it was probably okay to follow I, I remember my mom was like, do I know this person other than that it's Gamora. And I was like well not really because they moved it. I guess it just depends on going forth and maybe some episodes are gonna benefit from a different format styles. I think that she Hawk would be great in like a two episode or five week run instead of like a 10 week run just because the court case once a week kind of thing maybe would feel a little stretched out.
Speaker 1 00:15:14 I'm really excited for She Hulk to be week to week actually because I feel like it'll be super interesting. It'll kind of be what what if couldn't be for me where each week could be like a different court case but you'll still have like a central storyline running through. And again with all of the cameos that they've promised from she Hulk, I think that we could see some really interesting like speculation and everything because we know, I know like they had a casting call for a scroll in there. Daredevil is rumored to be in there so I'm sure there'll be like a lot of exciting stuff to keep us going especially if the cases stem from like previous M C U movies. I know that people were making jokes after wa vission about the people of Westview suing Wanda. But you know what I'd actually like to see that <laugh>,
Speaker 2 00:15:54 There are a lot of people who need lawyers in the M C U and a lot of fallout they need to deal with besides, you know, so they have the Department of Damage control that you know actually deals with the physical destruction of the buildings and stuff. But I'm imagining all the lawsuits, like you said with the people of Westview, with people suing Stark with just, there's a whole lot for the legal world to play around with.
Speaker 1 00:16:17 So bringing it back to Hawkeye, what did everyone think of Yelena Bulova's return and do you think the show helped to soften the blow of Natasha's death in Avengers end game?
Speaker 2 00:16:27 I think that it was nice that we got to see a little bit about what she did right after Black Widow ended, right? She was on this mission essentially to go kind of free the other widows from this mind control. So that was nice to see that. I think that the way they showed her Blipping was really emotional and really strong because they were in this bathroom, right? She walked in Dematerialized and then you had her rematerialized but everything was different. So that was kind of interesting seeing, finding her find her place and reintegrate with the world.
Speaker 3 00:17:00 No something that you definitely hit the head on the nail there is that whole opening scene with Yelena. I mean I guess we saw the on the the Rooftop in an episode before and that was really cool and it was good to see her like I knew exactly who she was. I was waiting for that mask to come off. But that opening scene of episode five where you see her on the submission and I found myself getting choked up when she went into the bathroom and then the walls started to change right away. I was just like, oh my god she doesn't know The net's gone and then I found myself getting more choked up when she's like, I need to find my sister and tell her I'm okay. And it was really tough to get through that moment because her life, she loves her sister so much and that driving force of her in this show and I was just so glad to see her again. They picked right actress Florence Pew Hills it ena and she continues to prove that she has the chops for this, the opening scene that hurt real bad.
Speaker 4 00:17:49 I loved that we got to see Yelena again. She was one of my favorite parts of Black Widow and like you guys said, it was great to see that she was like freeing the widows and stuff and she was kind of keeping that promise to Nat that she would go, that they would go around and they would free the widows and give them a life and like their own choices again. And Brian, I also got choked up at the bathroom scene like when she rematerialized and she was like, can you help me find Natasha? I need to let her know I'm okay. And Florence just does such a good job with tough emotion and like being sad for little pout that she always does. It's just she kills it every time.
Speaker 1 00:18:23 Yeah I really, I love Elena, I love Florence Pugh. Her dynamic with Kate was just absolute perfection. Like I love the two of them together. I need like, like I know other people have said this, but I need a buddy cop show with them immediately. I'm just, I'm really excited. I'm really excited 'cause I like our original Hawkeye and black widows dynamic and it's very nice that we have such a great dynamic for our next Black Widow and Hawkeye. But I do think it's interesting people have pointed out that Yelena was great in Hawkeye and it definitely, it was good for her character. It definitely furthered her character confronting Clint and everything. But I do agree that it didn't really service the show at all and it did make it feel a little bit overstuffed in the end. We had so many showdowns happening like in the last few minutes of the finale we had Maya and Kazi and then we had Kate and Kingpin and then we had Clint and Yelena all at the same time.
Speaker 1 00:19:15 Then we had Eleanor and Jack like floating around on the sidelines and then we also had Maya and Kingpin. So I do think it was a little bit much to have y Elena be there all the way to the end on Hawkeye because I feel like her story could have been wrapped up in episode five if she had come in one episode earlier and then she could have just like bowed out of the show kind of like the Dora Ji and Falcon of the Winner Soldier and then like let the other characters finish it off.
Speaker 2 00:19:40 I'm not entirely sold. So I, I agree with you that, you know, it almost felt a little bit overstuffed, but I'm not entirely sold on the premise that she didn't decide to come after Clint until she was hired by, you know, Eleanor to do that because she's obviously suffering, right? She's dealing with this grief, she's, she's not working through it very well and she thinks that he, he has the answers like if she kills him she'll feel better if she kills him, she'll have, you know, answers about that. I just don't know why she would've waited so long. Why would she need to have someone pay her to do that? And that's kind of what, what bumps for me a little bit about that storyline.
Speaker 3 00:20:20 Well I think when putting the pieces together is that she didn't know it was him until she was paid by Eleanor to do it, I think is how someone else described it is that like that scene at the end of Black Widow led right into the finale. So it's like, it wasn't waiting time but it was almost right away. She like turned around and went after him Hawk I needed three or four more episodes to complete every question I wanted to answer, needed three or four more episodes. We needed a few more with Elena. I think, I think that there was more of a dynamic there instead of her just like always showing up where he was without exploring more of the emotional side. I feel like we got like a little bit of a, of the emotional side shoehorned in at the end with the whistle that was is a very simple way to solve, solve the problem.
Speaker 3 00:20:58 So I do wish that we had a little more time with Heena. Yeah, I definitely think that time-wise is that we didn't have enough time to answer all the questions because I think there should have been more storyline for Eleanor as well because at the end it felt like she became very two dimensional with her character and her motives and yeah she wanted to be a good mom but like I feel like there wasn't enough of an ending for that as well. So I think that that definitely we needed just a few more to, to get what we needed out of it. So
Speaker 1 00:21:22 About Yelena and Clint and like the whistle, I definitely agree it did feel shoehorned in like the emotional stuff. And I'm gonna apologize in advance because I can tell that I'm gonna go into like a little bit of a rant right now. But I asked you guys, like when I brought up Elena and maybe it was too early to ask, I asked you guys if you thought that this show softened the blow of Natasha's death. I think that this show treats her death much better than Endgame did than even Black Widow did. Not that Black Widow had much time to do anything with her death since it was set before she died. But I really take issue with things that happened in the last episode because I do not buy for one second that Clint knew about Yelena. It doesn't make any sense to me and you can try explaining it away, but even like the explanations to me don't really make sense.
Speaker 1 00:22:05 'cause I think there's no way she would've told him before like the events of the Black Widow movie because she clearly tried not to think about her life in Ohio because it meant so much to her. So even though her and Clint were really close, I can't imagine Natasha telling him about Yelena and then she didn't see him after the events of Black Widow until they were going to VME in 2023. So I completely do not buy into, she talked about you all the time and I know your secret whistle and she loved you so much. All of that just felt like a total bullshit wreck con to me. And honestly, every single thing that's happened after Natasha's death to me just keeps making it worse because it feels like they're kind of trying to make up for the fact that someone killed her off. But the Black Widow movie to me made her death worse because, 'cause I understood why she sacrificed herself in endgame. She had read in her ledger and she wanted to save her family. Now we find out that she atone for like all of her sins 10 times over in Black Widow. So that to me made her sacrifice worse. And then in Hawkeye, I don't buy into the recon that Clinton knew about Yelena. And so I just, I feel like it's all very messy and I don't think they're handling Natasha's death well at all.
Speaker 3 00:23:11 So I guess along those lines then, what would you have liked to, to seen, I guess how, how do you celebrate someone who's missing but still present? To
Speaker 1 00:23:17 Me, the easiest solution would be not to kill her, of course, not that that's an option at this point, but to me, black Widow, the writers knew that they were making it after Natasha died. So to me, like an easy solution would have been to have Antonia actually be dead because Natasha feels guilt over killing a child and then surprise the child's alive and she can save her again. And then also it's like in endgame they say that Natasha had no family and then in Black Widow they're like, no, she did have a family. And then in Hawkeye they're like, and Hawkeye knew about the family, but he didn't mention it to anyone and they don't talk about it in endgame and they treat her as if she was like a loner. So to me, doing all of this stuff after her death, that directly contradicts things that happened in the movie where she died. It doesn't make any sense. And I feel like they're trying to make up for her death, but I feel like they're just making it worse in the process
Speaker 2 00:24:07 Again. Do you think if Clint knew that she had this family, that she had this sister and about her time in Ohio, do you think he would've sought out Elena on his own to, you know, not, I'm not saying apologize, but maybe even commiserate make penance for her death almost?
Speaker 1 00:24:23 Yeah, I absolutely feel like if Clint really knew about her to that extent that he should have looked for her. But I just, I think it's messy that Clint knows about it in general. I feel like Clint should have just not known about it. And he should have been surprised when Yelena showed up. And then again, if there were more episodes in Hawkeye, he would've really had to work to make Yelena believe that Natasha sacrificed herself instead of just cheaping it out with a whistle that he shouldn't know.
Speaker 3 00:24:46 You know, I will say though, I think that when you look at maybe the dynamic of the two of them, he wouldn't have even said anything. So he would've known but not have mentioned the fact that Yelena was alive. The reason I say this is because in age of Altron, nobody knew we had a family, but Nat did and Nat didn't say anything because not only are were they agents together, but that was her best friend, that was her family, like her new surrogate family. And so there was secrets that they had for each other that they wouldn't have shared with anything else. So I think it's totally plausible that maybe he could have known and that was Nats secret to tell people when she was ready, but then she was gone. And do you still have the right to tell people or to seek, seek that out, especially not knowing where they ended. Because it sounded, you know, at the very beginning of Black Widow that they, there was some bad blood between all of the members of Natasha's family, so perhaps he wouldn't have done that because he didn't know that they had reconciliation. So overall I think it's possible that he did know and she did talk about loving y Elena, but also not trying to diggle wounds that he hadn't known were healed.
Speaker 2 00:25:45 That's an excellent point. And I think that, you know, that actually makes perfect sense.
Speaker 1 00:25:49 I mean I, I do think that that's a good point and I agree 'cause like she did keep Clint's secret, but I think the difference is that if Clint died, I don't think she would continue to keep that secret. I think that she would go seek out his family, you know, and 'cause at that point, it doesn't matter if the Avengers know about his family, what matters is finding the family and like telling them what happened. And so you're right, like it's possible that he didn't know that she had reconciled with her family, but if he knew about Yelena before the events of the Black Widow movie, then I don't know why Nat wouldn't tell him about like the reconciliation when they were on their way to voir because like, yeah, they, they had the Time Heights, they had important stuff to do, but they were also on a spaceship for probably hours and like, what else are you gonna talk about? So I don't know, I, I feel like there are ways to explain it away and there are ways to make it work, but it just reeks of messiness because someone killed this character and like now other writers are trying to pick up the pieces for this new character for Yelena. And I just, I, I feel like there are certain things that are messy, but Hawkeye did do a much better job with Natasha's death than like Endgame did, for example,
Speaker 2 00:26:49 Well Endgame, you know, didn't really address it besides the funeral, right? We had all these characters that had this pretty important person to them die and then, you know, that that's it, it's pretty close to the end of the end of the movie. So we we're still all dealing with the ramifications of that. But to Brian's point, actually Nat knew about Clint's family, right? And he had a relationship with Clint's family, but Clint didn't have that same relationship with Elena. Brian's point that he didn't maybe have the right to go seek out Elena. That kind of, that makes sense to me. I guess based on their, their differing family relationships.
Speaker 3 00:27:23 I think the thing about Yelena that's interesting when we're trying to like recount things is that in endgame, when it started after Snap happened and they were looking for people and they had the, the computers running and they were searching through people and faces were popping and like, and I know at that time they probably didn't have Yelena cast, but like there was no indication that she was searching for the sister that she loved so much. I think that also that was more of a letdown looking back of like, you, you reconciled with your sister, why aren't you looking for her? Why aren't you searching for, you know, Alexi and the rest of your family? Because there was like no indication that this was even on her radar at that time, which was very strange to me going, looking back now.
Speaker 1 00:28:01 Yeah, and I mean obviously these are issues, like this is what ha well this is what happens when you try to like give so much like background to a character only after they've died. And again, like this is the problem with setting things in the past and doing recon, sometimes it gets messy, but even so like, so we know that Ena was off in 2018, finding the other widows, Natasha was a fugitive. I don't really understand why she's hanging around Ka and Sam like, and being on the run with them because again, we don't really know what they were doing during that time. So knowing that Ena was finding the widows, I don't really understand why Natasha wasn't with her. I just, I, I don't like these recon, I think recon get messy and, and people are trying their best, but maybe they should stop trying so hard because someone made the choice to kill Natasha and it's done now and I feel like the more they mess with it, the like the messier it gets. And so I like that we have Yelena now, but now I hope that we can just move on from Natasha's death because I don't, I don't want like any more of this stuff.
Speaker 4 00:28:59 I agree to that. Like especially trying to explain everything with Natasha's background, things from the past now kind of make less sense, like endgame, why wasn't she looking for her sister and stuff. So it's clear that they were just using Yelena kind of in a way to as like an emotional like goodbye. Especially with her and Clint at the end on the ice when he whistled and he was talking about how Nat talked about Yelena all the time and she got upset that he had more time with her.
Speaker 2 00:29:26 I think part of the challenge with Hawkeye as well and you know, having, having it feel like there are all these storylines crammed into one thing is that Hawkeye is really like a two-hander. There are two main characters that are kind of on their own path, but even though they, you know, they come together for various things, like this is, this is Clint's story and this is Kate's story and trying to deal with both of their worlds as they inter intersect is kind of, it's hard to do in six episodes.
Speaker 1 00:29:53 Yeah, I I think the solution is just that Hawkeye really needed at least two more episodes because I wasn't really on that train yet. But the more we talk today, the more I feel like, yeah, especially for all of the Y Elena stuff, we really needed a little bit more time. And I would've loved to see some more time from Maya too, because I do agree with what some other people are saying. It was a very quick turnaround for Maya's like sworn enemy to tell her that kingpin is lying to her. And then within an episode she's like shooting him in the head that is like so fast. And it really would've been nice to even just see that like stretched out over two more episodes and like to see her do some investigating and like starting to doubt like this organization that she's invested her life to along
Speaker 2 00:30:34 With that it would've been great to see, uh, further development of her and CAI's storyline because we're kind of up in the air about their relationship until the end, you know, she ultimately kills him because it's revealed that he's kind of the informant who led to her father dying. But you know, we don't see like everything that their partnership is and I think that's kind of a missed opportunity there.
Speaker 3 00:30:56 Oh, absolutely. I mean I think that all of, you're right there, there were so many storylines going on and things like, you know, Maya becoming into her own and, and getting like coming her own like hero or, uh, if you wanna say hero, just like your your own person outside this organization, there wasn't enough time. I'm also interested into what else was filmed because I know we've had behind the scenes photos of her with Jeremy Renner and she had the makeup on her face of the hand print and her uniform was a little different and was more of the echo esque costume. So I'm wondering how much ended up cut out that there could have honestly have been another episode to give us time with like Jack in developing that because he went from hating him to, you know, as a fan. I loved him at the end, but I, there wasn't enough time for him to have this big switch. And same with Eleanor and with Kingpin and all these different storylines that they wanted to introduce. They had to either like pick their battles and choose a few of them or they needed more time to explore all of that.
Speaker 1 00:31:51 Yeah, I definitely agree. And I don't know, I, I also, I fully believe that the finale was partially re-shot because I was surprised when Kingpin entered the fight. Like even just knowing him from Daredevil, I, I'm, I'm honestly shocked that he would show up to take care of Eleanor himself. And so I don't know like that I, I know like there were, there are rumors or speculation that parts of the finale were reshot to add in more kingpin. And I can fully believe that because all of that just felt kind of out of character to me. I didn't mind it, but I'm just like, why are you getting your hands dirty by trying to kill this woman instead of like sending a henchman to do it? And
Speaker 2 00:32:25 He got his hands very dirty at the end of, you know, at the end of the episode and he, he suffered for it and he, he is going to probably continue to suffer for, for his involvement in, you know, stepping away from his usual, having henchman do the thing.
Speaker 3 00:32:41 It's very interesting to, to see that side of him. But I do agree that like the big boss on top isn't the one that's going to go and necessarily get into the brawling style. That was a quite a different take, especially if, you know, Vincent said he played this as, as the same character, uh, who lost his kingdom and came back after the blip that wasn't necessarily the way that the kingpin would've normally handled it. So maybe that was like a desperation thing. So like, I have to get my hands dirty because everything's gonna be lost again. But I do think that like, it definitely they wanted more of him, they wanted to show his strength and his power and so they threw him headfirst into this finale and maybe it didn't, it wasn't executed to the best of, um, its ability.
Speaker 1 00:33:19 I think it makes sense that he would get his hands dirty like in that instance, right? Like Brian, like maybe he's desperate, I think like he's been, he's clearly been working with Eleanor for like 10 years, so maybe he's like, this is something I need to take care of personally, but none of that like really works for me because we didn't get enough time with him. So again, like more episodes could have given us more time with Kingpin. And to that point, I am getting absolutely exhausted of every live action Marvel, Disney plus series having some kind of, who's the big bad, like mystery villain. It's, it is getting exhausting with Wanda Visions. It wasn't so much who's the villain as how did like the whole west do situation start, but Falcon, the winter soldier and the power broker Loki and like he who remains and then Hawkeye and Kingpin, I really need a break from it. So I desperately hope that Moon Night doesn't have like this lead up to some villain that we don't know at the end.
Speaker 3 00:34:10 I mean though that isn't that just the Marvel style? It feels like every, you know, I'm looking back at Ironman three, sticking out with 10 rings ended up being Trevor and all of them have that twist at the end of who's actually the man behind the Curt. So it sounds like that's the very formerly response to developing these shows and um, movies.
Speaker 2 00:34:30 I think it's definitely a stylistic choice because you know, you have all of this buildup and then like Brian said, the twist and the reveal. But you know, other shows and I guess other things kind of in the same genre have handled their big bad differently. We've gotten to see the big bad plotting and scheming against the, the main characters, not non Marvel shows. I'm thinking of Buffy in this case and you know, the the stereotypical big bads and we didn't see any of that with King Ben in this show. We didn't see any of it with the other characters and, and other Marvel things
Speaker 1 00:34:59 Also, I definitely don't think like every Marvel movie does not like do that. There are twists in movies for sure, but like going back to Iron Man three, there was never a buildup of who's the bad guy because we thought the bad guy was the Mandarin and we saw him and then it turns out that it wasn't. But that's different to like Hawkeye because Hawkeye didn't present a villain. They just kept like teasing like a big boss and even Loki kept like teasing like, oh there's something fishy going on. And to me like other Marvel things don't do that. Like even this year, like in Shang Chi there was a twist with the whole like dweller and darkness and like Talo stuff, but the villain was there from the opening scene and he was constantly, you know, like he was a constant presence and he was constantly developed. And I think that if these shows want to have big villains behind the curtain, which again, I just think it's insanely repetitive after the 2021 shows, but if they want to do that you should reveal the villain at the end of like episode four or something so that you can at least get two episodes with them instead of only getting like one episode.
Speaker 3 00:35:59 You know, I think that you definitely have a point there because I, I was thinking back to every show and it was always these very, like everybody knew who the villain was. Like we all knew it was Agatha Change the name to Agnes from the beginning, didn't fool anybody. And we all kind of had a really good idea that Kingpin was, I'm the villain behind this. And the same with Hi who remains. It was like the worst kept secret, but they wanted that twist anyways where maybe if they would've laid it out a little bit earlier, we all could have had a different twist of knowing how the bad guy was without necessarily the heroes knowing it and being into that, like that privy of that secret and how that developed, that would've maybe have been a better twist for these TV shows.
Speaker 1 00:36:36 Yeah, because I get that you want surprises, but to me there's ways to make people talk about your show week to week without like pretending like Kingpin hasn't leaked because I mean I know that there, there was some speculation that he who remains like in Loki, you know, and like King and all of that. But I still think that that was a good buildup. I think everyone knew it was Agatha from the beginning. So I'm okay with her being hidden too because it wasn't really like about her in the end. But I think it just really didn't work for Kingpin because from like, at least from the introduction with Maya in episode three, like we all knew it was kingpin so there was no reason to draw it out to that extent. Like he should have just started being in the show from episode four in my opinion.
Speaker 4 00:37:17 I agree with that. I think they should have shown kingpin or at least a behind shot of him in the episode where like Maya was introduced. Like what did, it was episode four you said. I think, I think they would've benefited from that.
Speaker 2 00:37:29 I think we just got his hand right and that was, I know like Twitter was comparing hand pictures and that was interesting but um, that wasn't, I don't think enough to, like you guys said, get people talking about it. Yeah
Speaker 1 00:37:41 Like we got his hand. I think that that was like a really good tease. But again like if you're gonna show his hand and have him laugh in episode three then why are you just talking about him from for two more episodes? Like we all know who it is at this point. That does bother me. I think Hawkeye definitely like with the whole mystery big bad thing, I think it worked the least well Falcon of the Winner Soldier, the mystery wasn't that big 'cause it was like pretty secondary to everything going on. But yeah, I don't know, I feel like a lot of these Marvel Disney plus shows kind of have the same slight issues that don't sink the shows but they just make it kind of annoying because to me like Wand Visions and Hawkeye kind of fall into the same trap at the end where the central two characters are so beautifully developed and their story is so good but then like all of their supporting characters just kind of like crumble away in the finale and less so for Hawkeye but like yeah it really does feel like they just pressed like fast forward on Yelena, uh, like y Elena's emotional development in the finale.
Speaker 2 00:38:35 I have a question for you guys about Kingpin and I'm curious to hear your take during the course of the show there were phone calls between Clint and Laura and I think Laura referred to the big guy, et cetera through the show. Do you think that Laura herself has a history with Kingpin and could that be one of the reasons that, you know, if, if you believe that he ordered going after the Rolex, could that be why? Because she seems to know he who he is and you know what he's capable of and and all of that.
Speaker 3 00:39:02 You know, I never thought of it that way but that would make complete sense. Perhaps they had a run-in or a couple run-ins or she was, you know, key to shutting down operations maybe even potentially after the fact of Shield falling, I guess she would've actually been, she would've been staying and retired at by that point. I could totally see them maybe having a history and that would be why he wanted the watch. But I guess it would make that then less that he would want to know who she is 'cause he would already know her at that point. So then I, I guess I don't know then what his world would be for the watch but I mean that would be a really cool choice if they do have some kind of history and we gotta see that play out.
Speaker 4 00:39:35 I think that they have a history because maybe if he went after the watch it would be something to hold over Clint and being like, I have the watch and you were Ronan but maybe the rest of the world doesn't know your Ronan so this is like something I have over you and like a type of way thing.
Speaker 1 00:39:50 Yeah like I, it made sense to me when people said that the photo that Val showed Yelena in the Black Widow and credit scene, there was speculation that Kingpin was like the owner of the photo and so you like he could hold that over Clinton's head. That would make sense to me. I think it would be awesome if he had a history with Laura. I just, I want more of Laura. I love Linda Carini. I thought like the teases of her shield history were really interesting, especially when you look back at when she was first introduced and Tony was immediately like this is an agent of some kind. And that was just funny because she was like a housewife but she was an agent and I very much want to know more about that. And I do really like the idea that she was like the first Mockingbird and then she like kind of passed her baton to, to Bobby Morris.
Speaker 2 00:40:34 Tony totally nailed it I think with that comment and it was such, I don't think it was necessarily intentional at the time, but it's one of those things looking back in the past that totally fit. You know, she got so much character development in fleshing out this show and that was really fun to see. I think that was something I'd love to see more of. I wanna learn more about her, her time as Agent 19 or Mockingbird. I wanna learn, you know, just what she did and what led her to leave and all of those fun things.
Speaker 3 00:41:01 You know, I do wonder though, why do you think that she passed the baton to Bobby and that she isn't Bobby? Because I, I was under the impression that this was Bobby but she changed her name when she retired because you know, kinda like a witness protection, maybe something so big made her quit and that the loose end could have been tied to something that's going to show later Marvel and that's why she changed her name.
Speaker 1 00:41:22 So first of all, I am a major agents of Shield fan and I fully believe at this point that the show takes place in like an alternate universe, like from the M C U. But I still would like to get Bobby Morse one day and I don't believe that Laura was Bobby and changed her name because I don't think that Clint would be calling her by a changed name at home when it's just the two of them. Even if she had changed it 'cause she went into witness protection. I feel like there's no way that if you fell in love with someone and knew them for like 10, 15 years as Bobby, that you suddenly like start calling them Laura in every interaction. I just, I feel like that wouldn't happen.
Speaker 3 00:41:57 But then I do wanna throw out that I, I'm also a big agent, a Sheila fan, but did he ever actually call her Laura when it was just the two of them? Because the only time I can think that he did that was when he was in a public place and they were talking on the phone and you would still have to keep up a cover then. I don't know, like I just, I just, I'm, I'm interested. It could totally be that she passed the baton, but I'm also thinking that they're gonna go the other way that this was like a hidden identity thing.
Speaker 1 00:42:19 I don't know. I'm, I mean I it is, it is an interesting question and you're right, like now that you mention it, I thought that he called her Laura when it was just the two of them like at home on the phone or something. But I'd have to rewatch and I'd have to go through. But yeah, I mean I, I don't know either way. I mean like I'm kind of fine with it, but I just, I would really like to see all of like the agents of shield actors come back. So I hope that, I hope that she's not Bobby, although I would like it if she was like Bobby's older sister or something. I think that that would be interesting. I
Speaker 4 00:42:46 Actually have a question. What was everyone's thought on Jack ending up being like the good guy in the end and he was kind of funny and he was helping fight the tracksuits in the end. Like what did you guys think of that?
Speaker 3 00:42:55 I loved it. I hope Jack is one of those characters that comes back because up until this point, until we are shown otherwise, you know, Kate's father is dead, her mother is in jail and instead now she has this like surrogate father in Clint who's her partner, but she also has Jack and like Jack at the end they seemed to have that like really like gentle moment of like, Hey, you're a good person. She kind of smiled at him when he was defending people. I think that when her story returns we're gonna see Jack and I cannot wait to see the two of them interact more. Yeah, he was kind of stupid and he was kind of silly but like he ended up having this car of gold at the end that I hope that we see more of.
Speaker 2 00:43:31 I totally agree. I feel like the, you know, the quote stop making me like you kind of applies to, to Jack because I really wasn't sold on him at the beginning. I feel like at the start he kind of had a more sinister, kind of a sinister streak. Like he ended up at this black market auction, what's going on? And then it kind of turned into this, I think you said silliness and almost niceness as it went on. I really enjoyed seeing him at the end with the LARPers and I wanna see more 'cause I think that's amazing and so much fun and I wanna see if he goes off and kind of joins them and that's, you know, their take on him instead of Jack joining the circus like he did in the comics. I wanna kind of see him with the LARPers 'cause I think that would be fun.
Speaker 1 00:44:12 I loved Jack in the finale. I thought it was absolutely hilarious. It was just out there like stabbing people. Yeah, I, I agree. It's really funny that he went from being like kind of sinister to being like that funny and amusing at the end. I definitely like to see him and like Kate like, like are they still gonna live together after this? Which is why I, I think we deserve a Hawkeye season two and I think think we will get a Hawkeye season two. I just don't know if Jeremy Renner would be involved as much because there's definitely more to explore with his dynamic with Kate. But if he's ready to leave the M C U, I think they could easily just make Hawkeye Kate's own show. 'cause it was, it was much more of a two-hander than I expected. I expected Kate to be like a really central supporting character.
Speaker 1 00:44:52 Kind of going back to Wanda Vision. Both of their names are in the title, but it's really Wanda's show and vision. I don't regard Wanda Vision as a two-hander. I regard it as Wanda's show and vision is just like, he's like a main character but it's not like his show equally. So that's what I expected from Hawkeye but it was equally Kate's show so I think she can easily take it over in a second season if they want her to. And going back to the LARPers, I think that Hawkeye didn't really waste any time in its episodes, which I appreciate because I thought episode two was like kind of filler when I first watched it. Like the LARPing scene really annoyed me 'cause I thought it went on for too long and I didn't enjoy it. But just seeing how much they figured into the show, how much they helped and how great they were at the end, I really love that now. So I think Hawkeye could have used more time, it could have used another episode or two, but I don't think it wasted the time it had. They
Speaker 2 00:45:41 Were so pivotal, right? Grills hooking up him up with the place to stay him, you know, giving them this workshop for them to make their arrows, him connecting him, you know, them with Missy so they could get their costumes made. It's just like so much ended up being because of the LARPers and their help in the finale, corralling people and you know, keeping watch was, was great. And
Speaker 3 00:46:03 I think that it helps to drive from a point that kind of stems back to age of Voltron. One of my favorite scenes then in that movie is when Clint is talking to Wanda and he's just like, listen, I'm a human without powers with arrows in this situation. And you kind of have a role with that. And I think this shows that like not only just for Kate who was specially trained in every kind of combat and, and fighting style can be a hero, but so can normal people who just care enough and want to do good, can do good and be a hero in their own right. I think that that was really important and it was a really good like reflective mirror to, to have on the show that anybody can be a hero if they're standing up for what's right. Yeah.
Speaker 4 00:46:44 And it like kind of goes back to when Kate was talking about 2012 when she saw him like jump off that building and he was fighting with the aliens and that's when she realized anyone can be a hero. And then like having the laers come in and be heroes at the end. But ala the point that you made with Jack, like joining the LARPers and like him joining the circus and the comics now that's something to think about. Like for his return now I'm gonna be thinking about that for like another year.
Speaker 2 00:47:09 I just feel like Jack got such a raw deal, I wanna see so much more about him. I mean his fiance framed him for murder that doesn't, you know, did she really love him? That's just so much to play with there and explore and I just wanna, I want more Jack.
Speaker 4 00:47:21 Yeah, definitely. I'd love to, I'd love to see 'em come back if, if they do do a season two of Hawkeye, definitely like a Kate story and like him show up for a few episodes.
Speaker 3 00:47:30 Along those lines though too, not only did you know his fiance frame him, but from the way she talked about Kingpin is that he was going along with it and like, because he loved her and that's kind of how I interpreted it. So like he, there, there was this part of him that even though he didn't do it, he was going to help out his fiance in that way. And maybe I'm misinterpreting that wrong, but that was an interesting dynamic I didn't think of, you know, like wow, he really is a good guy.
Speaker 2 00:47:55 There's a moment when Kate is kind of agitating him and and pressing him when they're having this family dinner and you know, he says that the best way to make a risotto is to, and she's doing that to him too. But you know, he lets her win then when they are, they're doing their sword fight. And I think that's kind of like a dad thing to do, right? You're letting your kid, or in this case Kate win even though you, you could technically beat them. And I think that's, that's really charming and kind of made me like him.
Speaker 3 00:48:23 You know, I do have one final question for all of you as well. As we're all aware here as writers, our editor in chief put out an article about a change to the final episode specifically in the end credit scene. You know, the one that we got, it was funny but it was kind of lackluster because it didn't showcase anything from the future or where or where Kate was going or you know, if women were gonna see Eleanor again or even just a new show and, and Miss Lizzie reported that there was supposed to be a scene where Clint sent Keith in the sword with a warning to stay away from Clint and his family. I kinda wanna get your thoughts of what do you think of this, this change and like why did they change it and how does that all fit in?
Speaker 1 00:49:01 I wish they hadn't changed it because I do not like the end credit scene that we got. I like the funny end credit scene sometimes, but I far prefer like dramatic ones that actually tease what's coming. And to me, the one that we got like wasn't even that funny. It was kind of, it wasn't amusing but I don't know, it was just overly long and completely useless in my opinion. So if we were gonna get that, we definitely should have had a real one alongside it. And I was really looking for something that showed us like what was in store for Fisk or Yelena because we have no idea where Yelena is going next and we don't even know if Fisk is still alive. We can guess that he is. But I really would've liked to have that scene with the sword. I think that it would have been like a good way to end Hawkeye and tease like the other street level projects coming up.
Speaker 2 00:49:47 I think that, I mean o obviously that the reshoots were to um, kind of leave some of the mystery intact for whether or not Kingpin survived. And I do think it would've been a very strong ending if we had seen Kingpin injured, you know, if he was shot in the eye, if we saw, you know, hi his eye bandaged or something like that and he was healing and he sent this sword, I think that would've been very, a very strong ending. So I'm, I am a little disappointed that we didn't see that.
Speaker 4 00:50:16 I would've preferred if they kept it as well because I thought the musical, while people were kind of asking to see like the entire musical part of it, it was like kind of lame that we got it in the end and I was expecting like maybe somebody to be in the audience, but I think like a setup for kingpin later on would've been much better. And I think it kind of goes back to him wanting to watch and maybe knowing that it's Laura's and like Clint sending that saying Stay away from my family could've kind of tied that up
Speaker 1 00:50:43 To me. I, I agree Emily, like people were asking for a full like musical scene, but to me that's like people asking for the deleted footage of Zemo dancing and Falcon and the Winter Soldier. That's the kind of thing that would've been perfect to be released as a YouTube video because they have the footage and people would've like, people would've blown it up. I definitely would've gone like, you know, like viral for a day. But to put it as the end credit scene, I feel like it just leaves a bad taste in the mouths of people that didn't want it. And even for the people that did want to see the full scene, did they want to see it in place of something that actually like tells them what's coming up for these characters. So I just feel like it was kind of a misstep on Marvel's part to put it as an end credit scene,
Speaker 3 00:51:23 You know, very much so It did, did feel like they wanted to build up that mystery, kinda like Ila was saying, is he alive? Is he not going to, even though we're all kind of sure he's still gonna be alive. And then this was like all they had and they're like, well we already shot it so we might as well use it. And I totally agree, we they this would've been a better, this would've been better YouTube video, this would've been a better extra on Disney Plus. It felt almost kind of like a slap in the face when I was like, this is what we're getting at the very end. We just spent six episodes investing in these characters and like we have no idea what's gonna happen. I would've been really cool if we would've saw Kate get in the car and be like, Hey, I am heading out west.
Speaker 3 00:51:57 Or you know, you would've saw a hint of Yelena talking to Vale or headed off onto her next adventure. It just, this wasn't what I was hoping for. And I actually was very excited when I read what Lizzie said because I was like, that felt more of the end of Hawkeye. Like what a, what a great way to send a message to the person who's been controlling all of this. That big guy that you all hinted at this whole show by showing him in the hospital healing but completely weakened. There's nothing left at this point. And how angry would he have been to get that sword in that note? It, it almost would've been mocking towards him and I think that that would've been a better wrap scene to just wrap the show up.
Speaker 2 00:52:34 It would've totally left us wanting more, whereas the way the kingpin has ended now, like he could be done and we, we would be a little bit unsatisfied but we would be okay with that. I think the ending that Lizzie talked about just it would've been so much better.
Speaker 1 00:52:49 Yeah. 'cause you're right, like even if he was, even if he was a weak weekend and he got like that note from Clint, that would've been like kicking him while he's down and then that could've ended like with a good moment of him like maybe getting like a little angry or like determined and like that kind of thing. It could make him stay away from Clint but I think it would just make him more determined to like solidify his control over New York and yeah like I, I really feel like we needed that scene.
Speaker 4 00:53:11 Yeah, especially if he is gonna come back and echo and make appearances in more projects, I think fans would really need to know that he's like alive and get excited and it's like a way to get excited for Echo and like, oh where's he gonna come up next? Now that we know that he's still alive.
Speaker 2 00:53:27 I have a question for you guys relating to that and relating to, to Fisk's world at large. So there has been speculation about who bought Avengers Tower and we've seen, we saw some of the items from Avengers Tower in the rubble. Do you guys think Fisk is the one who bought the tower?
Speaker 3 00:53:44 I think that's probably a, a good call. Yeah, I was definitely on the, the train that I wanted to be the Baxter building or Osborne uh, OS Corp. And after, you know that that line in Spider-Man about there not being an OS Corp in this world, I was just like, what big bad or like what company do you have to look out for is gonna be the one that that purchases it. And my two, my two thought process was either Fisk buying it to kind of have this seat of center of the seat of power, especially because it was the power that this, this tower of power for Stark. He'd want that imagery and he'd want, he'd wanted to view himself as that person or potentially something like aim buying a tower like that. But I definitely think that that Fisk is a very good call of who may have purchased Avengers Tower.
Speaker 1 00:54:29 I don't think Fisk bought it because just just because Vincent Donofrio has said that like he regards this as the same Fisk from Daredevil who is you know, trying to rebuild his kingdom in the aftermath of the Blip and Avengers Tower was purchased in 2017. If we go back to like the Marvel Netflix timeline in 2017, Fisk would've been in prison because I'm pretty sure Daredevil season three is like set in 2018 or 2017. But like I just, I don't think Fisk had the resources to purchase it in 2017 when it was bought, or sorry it, sorry it was bought in 2016. I keep forgetting that Homecoming isn't set in the year of release so I don't think he had the resources to buy it then. And I think that if he had bought it like seven years ago, then he would be operating out of it now like in some way.
Speaker 1 00:55:14 Like why would he be in like some seedy location, you know like with the beaded curtain and everything And he does seem a little bit desperate if he's getting his own hands dirty. So I don't think he bought it just because he seems like he's struggling a little bit but, but you're right, like I don't know who else could have bought it. 'cause my first guess was OSS Corp and I guess it could be the Baxter building in my opinion. I think that in that when Homecoming came out they intended for it to be Osco buying it, but I don't think that's the case anymore. I think it's either gonna end up being the Baxter building or Aim now that
Speaker 4 00:55:43 You brought that up. I don't think Kingpin did buy Avengers Tower 'cause that was my guess. 'cause after Spider-Man I, well before Spider-Man I thought it was Osco, but then and now after watching No Way Home, it's definitely not Oz Corp. But now I have like no idea who it could possibly be.
Speaker 1 00:55:58 I think Aim would make a lot of sense because there's been talk of like the benefactor, right? Like the person that was funding, um, Sonny Birch and Antman and the Wasp personally I believe that that's the same person that bought Avengers Tower. And so it could be kingpin, but Hawkeye just makes me think that it isn't, and there are rumors that Modoc will be in quantum mania. So I, I'm like leaning more and more towards its aim that bought the tower and it's aim that's like after this technology.
Speaker 3 00:56:26 The interesting though thing though is that this is a slight, slight off note, but if Ooz Corp doesn't exist in this world, how did Spiderman get his bite? I think that's something that there has to be some kind of other maybe, maybe it's something completely random that bought this tower some, you know, or some other kind of engineering company because he had to have gotten his bite from a Radiac or spider from somewhere. So if it's gonna tie back to Spider-Man, it could potentially not be Scorp. But something else we haven't thought of yet.
Speaker 2 00:56:54 You know, I'm not normally a team origin story, but I think if there is no Scorp like you said, we do kind of need to know how he, how he got bitten by the spider and I hope that maybe Spider-Man freshman year or the animated series addresses that a little bit or gives us some hints so we can figure it out.
Speaker 1 00:57:11 I think it will and I mean I don't necessarily think it has to be Oz Corp because correct me if I'm wrong, but in the first Spider-Man movie, was it OSS Corp? Like with Toby McGuire? 'cause he was like at Columbia Scientist Lab something, so I don't remember whether it was like OS Corp that funded that or not, but I think in the M C U it could just be like, it could be a smaller company, but that's kind of boring. So, um, so I don't know, maybe, maybe, maybe it was aim or I guess I, I I think we will find out in freshman year. I think that they're gonna take freshman year as an opportunity to fill in some of the blanks but not like give us an actual complete like linear origin story.
Speaker 3 00:57:46 You know, maybe a great question to, to just kind of wrap it up is where do you want to see some of these Hawkeye characters show up next? You know, like where are we hoping to see Kate Bishop, where are we? Do we, do we need to see Clip Barton again or do you think that, you know, the next time we're gonna see a lot of these characters is something towards, you know, young Avengers or an Avengers team up?
Speaker 2 00:58:06 I would like to personally see more Kate Bishop because she's just so, so interesting and I want to see her dealing with the fallout of her mother's arrest and, you know, everything after that. She's at kind of an interesting moment in her life. She's, she's essentially crime fighting partners, for lack of a better term, with Hawkeye when she was supposed to go off to work at her mother's company right after she graduates. So I'm really curious what lies next for her and I wanna learn more about it.
Speaker 4 00:58:33 I think like maybe we could possibly see Kate again in like the end credit scene for Antman, possibly like recruiting Cassie. 'cause I think I've seen like some stuff where there's rumors that she'd be in quantum mania, but I don't know like how true they are. But I think that would be really interesting to see her and Cassie together and I think like maybe the next time we'd see Clint is the next time the Avengers are possibly needed and like him helping bring everybody together along with like Bruce and Thor possibly.
Speaker 1 00:58:58 I also would like to see Kate in Quantum Mania towards the very end of the movie or yeah, like as a, as an end credit scene. Like I, I don't know why she would show up, but I feel like there are ways to do it, especially after like Clint used a couple of pin arrows and her being like a Hawkeye fan girl. I think it would be really funny to see her like meet Scott and then I think, I don't really think we need any more Clint this, like, he was good in this show, but his story has felt over for like a very long time to me. Like the man's been trying to retire for six years. Like we should just let him. So I'd like to see him again, but as like, I think it was ala who said this, put Laura in action the next time Kate gets like a solo ish story.
Speaker 1 00:59:36 Put Laura in the action and then have Clint be the one on the phone. I I only need him to like have a cameo in the next Kate solo storyline. And then I think I'm kind of fine without him. And then as for Yelena, I don't know, I'd expect her to show up in like a street level kind of thing, but maybe not, maybe not next year. Like, I don't know, I don't think she'd fit well in she Hulk, but I mean that's why I wanted an end credit scene with her so I can get some kind of sense of what she's doing now because she didn't carry out her mission. So is she gonna be in trouble with Val and Val works for someone? So like, is Val working for like Kingpin or Ross or someone else? So yeah, like I just, I wanted like a little, a little bit of a taste of like that whole like Val and Yelena storyline at the end of
Speaker 3 01:00:18 Hawkeye all completely valid. I think that I, as much Kate Bishop as I can get, I would love, I'd love to see her team up with Yelena. I'm definitely kind of hoping for that. We see the spinoff of Hawkeye call Hawkeye and The Mockingbird and it, it is Kate Bishop and all Laura going out and just solving crimes together or, and having Quin stay home. I think that's gonna be a really interesting dynamic and it kind of fits in with like the Antman, the wasp and like this, these developing teams as we go along. You know, that's something that Kevin Foggy said is that we're gonna have a lot of littler teams going forward and instead of big team up and that was gonna kind of be the future of the next phase or so while we lead up to, to the next big event. And so I think that bringing in this family unit with Mockingbird is a really nice call for their future.
Speaker 1 01:01:01 Well that about does it for this episode. Swing in for our Spider-Man. No way. Home discussion with Vin coming soon. And in the meantime, subscribe to our Patreon for access to Discord conversations and look for more news and reviews from us on the cosmic circus.com. You can follow us for updates on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook at my cosmic circus. Thanks for listening.
