[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hi, I'm Isla Ruby, and welcome to another episode of The Cosmic Cafe, the companion interview podcast to thecosmicsrcus.com we have a very fun episode for you today. We're talking with the folks behind Apple TV plus's kids animated show Curses. It's an awesome show where a family who has been cursed and the dad turned into stone try to right the wrongs of their family's past to break the curse. There are jump scares, ancient artifacts, and so much more. I had the chance to speak with Jim Cooper, Jeff Dixon, and Leo Riley all about the show, so I hope you enjoy.
[00:00:37] Speaker B: Well, it's lovely to meet you all. I'm Isla Ruby.
Okay, so first, I have a daughter that's seven, and this show is, like, right in her space, so it's really cute. I love it. So thank you for that. Thank you for just making a really cool show for kids.
[00:00:56] Speaker C: Oh, thank you for saying that.
[00:00:58] Speaker B: Yeah, I loved it. She loves it too. She's downstairs. Hopefully won't crash this, but yeah, I have a lot of questions, so I'm really curious.
So, Jeff and Jim, about your partnership. I know it started on the playground. Essentially, that elementary school, literally.
[00:01:15] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:01:15] Speaker B: Yes. For your kids. Can you talk about so after you have this kernel of an know from the playground, when do you know it's go time? How do you approach that? What was the kind of development process for the program, like, after you have your idea and figure out this is what you want?
[00:01:31] Speaker C: Well, you know what's funny is the first part of the process, I think, for us was to make sure that we could actually write together, because we had never actually written as a team before, and we've always just had our own individual careers. So the first go, the first like, hey, can we do this? We actually did a feature script together, which was kind of our can we do this experiment?
And it worked really well, and it was a balance of horror and comedy, and it was a sport quadrant thing, and we're like, hey, this can actually work.
So that was kind of, I think, our very first test case just to see. And then from there, we actually started going, oh, this could actually work. What is something that we would really so that was, I think, that we don't really discuss even that much because it was like, you don't think about it. You always just think, curses, curses, curses. But there was this test case that kind of made sure we could write together. And what we discovered, a lot of it was just we have a lot of strengths. I don't want to say weaknesses, but things that either of us are just a little stronger at, whether it be structure or character or dialogue or whatever, that we started to find that that person's strengths or that we would really start to find who would lean into that? Who would lean into that? I would write some of the more scary scenes. He would write a little bit more of the history explanation scenes, so we would find that balance through our writing as well. I don't know if that fully answered your question, but Coop, take off from that.
[00:03:15] Speaker D: Yeah, in all honesty, a lot of it this is completely true. A lot of it was talking through on hikes we would do together. I mean, you'd literally hike, and you got to talk about something if you're walking 5 miles, you know what I mean? And we would talk about different things, and it's like, okay, kernel of an idea. Family is cursed. Okay, what do you do?
Like that? And it was interesting. Should it be live action? We talked about it live action for a while, and then someone's like, you could never make that show because that would be too expensive, and they're, like, put it on the shelf for a while. Got the idea. What if we did it animated? So it's funny. It really evolved a lot over the years, so that in itself is kind of fascinating. It would almost be like a long essay to explain. Okay, thought about it this way and then this way.
[00:04:16] Speaker C: What I do love, though, is where we've landed in a spot where we'll throw ideas out to each other all the time, whether it is story ideas or series ideas or episode ideas or whatever. And how about this? How about that? How about that? And there'll be a lot of, like, maybe, but then there'll be that moment that's it. That's it, that's it moment. And so we know that we wait for the that's it moments, because if there's a lot of those, like, maybes you just know subconsciously, that's not the best one. But we do definitely have that moment.
[00:04:53] Speaker D: One of my favorite moments there is. So Pandora is the name of Jeff's sister.
[00:04:59] Speaker B: Oh.
[00:04:59] Speaker D: And we're literally on a hike, and he's talking about my sister Pandora. And I'm like, Were your parents aware of the story of Pandora when they named no, they weren't. I'm like, Dude, that's a great character name. So it's kind of funny where I don't think he necessarily would have gone, let's name a character after my sister. But you're, like, going, Dude, no, that's it right there.
[00:05:23] Speaker B: Oh, that's awesome. Leo, how did you connect with them and get onto the project? Because you have more of an animation background, right? An animation directing background.
[00:05:34] Speaker E: Correct. Yeah. I think I was rolling off of a project that was an action project here at the studio at DreamWorks, and I was brought in by development.
It's one of those things, I think I'm trying to think about the projects I've worked on, and it seems like every project that you hope to work on is the project that you're maybe not currently working on.
[00:06:02] Speaker D: Right.
[00:06:03] Speaker E: Like, stylistically, I come off an action show. And I was like, yeah, I could do work on another action show, but I really like to do something different.
And so when they said, oh, we've got this gateway horror show that would you be interested in? I was like, absolutely.
So I think that's how that came about, really was initially that when they were early in development, I was doing some storyboards and just helping out and kind of bouncing around on projects and development. And this one seemed to be the one that just had legs and just went. So, yeah, that's how I guess I got involved.
[00:06:43] Speaker D: Well, and by the way, it's interesting too, because some storyboards had been done before, like, jumped on board and when he came on board, there were a couple moments where Jeff and I were like, whoa, what's? It like new revised things. And it was like, you knew the like, because Leo understood the language, there were shots and scenes that you're like, that that's it right there. And it was very exciting because it was just something that we could recognize instantly without Leo even having to say anything. It was like there in the drawings.
[00:07:24] Speaker B: That's awesome.
That's kind of like a great way. You know, one of the things that's appealing about the show, you guys have talked about gateway horror and scaring people, and it seems to be part of this larger philosophy that scares are good. And I would love for you guys to just talk about that and expand on that a little bit more because I think it's such a cool thing.
[00:07:48] Speaker C: You broke up just for a second.
[00:07:49] Speaker B: You said a larger philosophy that scares are essentially like mild scares are a good thing for kids because it helps them overcome their fears and kind of be brave and work through things, which I think you see a lot of in the show.
[00:08:03] Speaker C: Oh, absolutely. That was something that was just very personal, near and dear to me, just because that was kind of what I kind of went through as a kid myself.
So I think for me, it was just really about I tried to test myself a lot as a kid and sometimes watching things I should not have been watching, but I still tried. But so this is a way to do that that they should be watching. You know what I mean? It's like, this is the one the safe way of doing accomplishing the exact same thing. But yeah, I mean, we've talked about how the show definitely means something a little different to every person, whether it know a theme here or a moral there or different aspects. And so I know that both Leo and Coop probably have this is what that's most important to me here. This is what that's most important to me here. For me, honestly, it's exactly what you're talking about. I really do believe in kind of building courage through a little bit of pushing yourself beyond some boundaries that maybe you wouldn't normally do. And so the characters try to do it in a few of the points, and we tried to do it with the show.
[00:09:19] Speaker B: Well, then I'll raise a question, then, to both Leo and Jim or Coop, as you say.
Can you talk about what's the thing for you in the show that really sticks out along the lines of what Jess said?
[00:09:36] Speaker D: Well, for me, it has been the idea of viewing things differently.
It's funny, we were talking about the nature of a curse. The nature of a curse is someone or something was wronged. And to end the curse, how do you make it right? And I've always thought it was really fascinating. You really kind of have to get on the level of the thing or figure out the curse and go, what's truly at the heart of the matter? And the reason why the family is successful is because they view things differently than everyone else has in the past. You know what I mean? Rather than, like, the baboon head. Well, the sensible thing would be lock it up so it can't bite you or whatever. And they're like, well, no, what's it after? What's the matter? And solving that. And to me, that's kind of the fascinating thing. And that's kind of true, really, for any decent story. You're like, what am I not seeing here? How can I look at things different? So that's what I'm always fascinated by.
[00:10:46] Speaker E: I'm trying to remember the original question, but I wrote down a couple of things really quickly just so I hope it makes sense.
[00:10:54] Speaker B: It'll be good.
[00:10:56] Speaker E: Okay. I think for me, working on the show, a lot of it has just been finding a balance right. Of being able like, how far can we push it without being too scary and being thoughtful about our approach to the storytelling, pushing the scares, and yet just trying to be clever about how you offset that with either color palette or levity or just again, just finding ways to sorry, I've just totally lost my train.
[00:11:33] Speaker B: Totally fine.
[00:11:34] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:11:34] Speaker E: But then also, I think also having chances to pay homage to the things that really inspired me and that I love about the genre and yet doing it in a way that's accessible without being, again, too, in the realm of what Jeff was talking about the stuff that you weren't supposed to this is the beginning of.
Yeah.
[00:12:01] Speaker B: Okay, cool. And I know we're running close on time, but I really wanted to ask about this. So, Stanley and Larry, a lot of comic relief, obviously, and they're kind of like emissaries for the family through the world since dad is cursed.
One, are they named after anyone special? Because I don't know. I was just wondering if it was an Easter egg. And two, can you talk about the approach to those characters and how you saw them and what they brought to the world.
[00:12:29] Speaker C: Well, I will say this, I will let Coop take the part that I know he wants to say, but.
[00:12:42] Speaker D: The.
[00:12:42] Speaker C: One thing I will say about Stanley and Larry is a lot of people have asked us, oh, did you base them on c, three, PO and R? Answer is no, we did not. But the one thing that we did kind of base a little bit of him on is Coop. And there are very exaggerated versions of essentially kind of the way we react to things. I can sometimes be the Larry and he can sometimes be the Stanley. And so we definitely used a little bit of that in there. And as far as the names go, that's what I was going to say.
[00:13:22] Speaker D: Coop, I think, well, it's funny.
[00:13:27] Speaker B: This.
[00:13:27] Speaker D: Is going to sound like totally nerdy obscure, but like the Stanley I think I can't even exactly remember, but I always think like Stanley and Livingston.
Dr. Livingston, I presume?
[00:13:40] Speaker B: Yeah, there was a skull, right?
No, with Dr. M. Am I totally confusing the stories with Dr. Livingston? No, never mind.
[00:13:49] Speaker D: No, they were just explorers. But then there was also like Laurel and hardy. We kind of pictured them being kind of like and then to be perfectly honest, larry was originally called Jerry just because we thought that was funny. Okay, legal's, like we can't call him Jerry and we're might be there's like another skull out there named Jerry. And we're like, seriously, how about Larry? Larry's fine. And we're like, woo, larry it is. And we have a friend named Larry too.
[00:14:21] Speaker C: Yeah, we have a friend named Larry and so he loves it.
[00:14:25] Speaker D: And so you're like it's not named after you, but we were well aware.
I'm intrigued. What is your thoughts?
[00:14:32] Speaker B: And maybe we I was totally wondering if it was Stanley was named after Stanley Kubrick. I couldn't figure out.
That was my thought. I'm like, okay, maybe because there are some shining references in curses.
[00:14:49] Speaker D: This is absolutely true.
[00:14:54] Speaker C: No, I was just going to say the coupe when I said that what I thought you wanted to say was the Stanley and Livingston thing.
[00:14:59] Speaker D: Yeah, and by the way, can I tell mean, you know how like memory works? I think that's where we threw it, mean literally sometimes. But I can tell you Cornelius vanderhubin, that name came up because when we were on one of our hikes we were talking about the grandpa and I started saying Cornelius Vanderbilt and like midway through we're like, well it can't be Vanderbilt. So I'm like Cornelius Vanderhoven. And Jeff laughed and we're like, Vanderhoven it is. So that was like the extent of that where you're like it's kind of Cornelius Vanderbilt but we kind of want to make it sound a little funnier. And so it's funny sometimes I genuinely don't remember.
Although then like Horace, we're like, okay, it's pandas.
Okay, I will be quiet.
[00:15:57] Speaker E: He'll go? So I'd say, from an outside perspective, I think this exaggeration that you guys think that you're experiencing, it's not quite as exaggerated as you think.
[00:16:13] Speaker D: We also did like, the scratch voices for them.
Sometimes you just need scratch voices because you've changed the line and the actors haven't recorded yet. And so I'd be Stanley and Jeff would be Larry, by the way, worst experience ever to then have to be in the room when the real actor has to fill in the thing and your voice is in there and you're like, okay, yeah, I suck. I'm not a good actor.
[00:16:41] Speaker B: You guys had amazing actors, too, right? You had the voice of Fredy Krueger, you had Spike from Buffy, you had your main cast. How did they come on board? What was that like? Because as a horror person, that's amazing.
[00:16:54] Speaker C: It's a combination, honestly, of the amazing casting department of DreamWorks. They really would be like, two things. Number one, who are some people, you think? And we're like, can we shoot for the sky? And they're like, Shoot for the sky. So we would throw names, and then they would compile lists that would have some of those names that we wanted, and then a whole bunch of names that we never thought of and be like, whoa, that was a stroke of genius. And so, yeah, there's some names I mean, I won't say which or which whatever, but there's some names that they were our first choice and we got and then there's some other ones where it's like, oh, my gosh, we would have never thought but they are perfect. So we were really lucky that all of them took to the material really well. And every one of them is just everybody in our cast has just been absolutely incredible. And I'm glad the SAG strikes over so they can actually talk about the show.
[00:17:47] Speaker B: Yes, and I'm getting the message. We have to be done in a moment. So is there anything you want folks to know about versus is there anything that you want to leave people with for all of you?
[00:18:00] Speaker C: Honestly, this is going to sound so dumb, and it's going to sound very like, hey, but just tell your friends about it. We just need to get the word out about the show. We want everybody to see it. We're so freaking proud of the show, and we just really want as many people as possible to see it and watch it.
[00:18:19] Speaker D: Yeah, and honestly, we made it for the whole family.
Our intention is kids watch it, the parents watch it. There's going to be a lot of stuff, and I don't mean like, oh, it's ribbled humor, or something like that. The adults will understand that. The kids won't, I think, thematically, and some of the thoughts and some of the like, I think a lot of adults will be like, oh, wow, they're really dealing with some interesting issues here.
[00:18:47] Speaker C: Yeah, Leo, you go. But I want to say one more thing. I don't want to interrupt.
[00:18:51] Speaker E: I don't know how to follow up. That what you guys were just talking about. I guess I would just say that, please check out the show. It was put together by some really a group of really thoughtful, kind, talented people who just really tried to put everything they had up on screen.
[00:19:11] Speaker C: I completely agree with that. The only thing I will add at the end, and it's been one of my absolute favorite things that's happened since the show came out, is we've been getting photos from people of their kids watching the show from, like, 6789 years old. And what's so fun is some of them are hiding halfway behind a blanket. Some of them are kind of looking over here, and they send these photos to us. And everyone brings me so much joy because they're having fun with it. It's not like they won't sleep at night. They're like, okay, another one, another one. They ask for another episode. But it's those moments of actually experiencing that fear for kind of the first time. Because if you think about it, a lot of these kids have never really experienced this. So this is a new sensation to them. Seeing those photos are the greatest thing in the world. So that's what I would say, is that for parents out there with kids watching your kids watch, it is fabulous.
[00:20:12] Speaker D: I just realized the photo is sort of like the photo that you get in a roller coaster during the dive, and everyone's like that. They sell it afterwards. You're like, yeah, that's it. We want to see more of those.
[00:20:24] Speaker B: Oh, fantastic. Well, thank you all so much. I really appreciate the time.
[00:20:28] Speaker E: Thank you so much.
[00:20:29] Speaker B: Bye.
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