Speaker 0 00:00:00 <silence>
Speaker 1 00:00:16 Hi everyone, and welcome to the Cosmic Circle, the podcast for the cosmic circus.com, your friendly neighborhood site. For Nerdy News, I'm Ala Ruby, and I'm here with my dear friends and fellow writers, Uday Kataria and Brian Kitson. How are you guys doing?
Speaker 2 00:00:31 I'm great.
Speaker 3 00:00:33 I'm so excited to be here. Absolutely. Hi, how are you? How's everyone doing?
Speaker 1 00:00:38 I'm really good. I'm glad that, you know, we're through the new year and, and all of that <laugh>. Um, so I'm trying to keep a straight face here 'cause we're recording this actually before Christmas, even though we're gonna air it afterwards. Um, so we're here to talk about <laugh>. We're here to talk about Black Panther too. And you know, we have, I know there's some strong opinions and I know our friend Uday here is just dying to talk about it. So Uday, what do you, you wanna start things off?
Speaker 2 00:01:08 Yeah, so I saw Wakanda forever, six times in theaters in about a month and a half, which is absolutely insane for me. That is tied with the second, it, it's tied for the second place of like, the most times I've seen a movie in theaters. I've worded that very awfully. Um, but it's tied with Infinity War and it's second only to end game. And right now it is above end game on my Marvel movie ranking, uh, as like number one. Uh, but that might be a little bit of recency bias, so it might drop down. But yeah, I'm a, I'm a huge lover of Wakanda forever.
Speaker 1 00:01:37 You've basically spent like almost an entire day of your life watching the movie.
Speaker 2 00:01:42 Yeah,
Speaker 3 00:01:44 I mean there's nothing wrong with that there, you know, I unfortunately did that with Twilight and watched that too many times. So we all have our, our uh, our strengths and our weaknesses. But I guess I'm wondering for you, what, what makes it as good as Infinity War? Like, that's a huge statement. 'cause Infinity War is so big,
Speaker 2 00:02:02 Um, controversial take, I don't think Infinity War was that great <laugh>. Um, I, I don't think it was bad. I'm going to be very clear about that. I love Infinity War. It's an iconic movie. Um, but I really had to like force myself to like it when it came out in theaters for like, at least opening night. And then once I had seen it multiple times and like I accepted its flaws a little bit more, I liked it. But with Infinity War and Endgame, I saw them so many times because I wanted to go with different friends, different family members. And of course they were huge events, uh, in the M C U. Like, we won't see anything like them again until like Secret Wars and King Dynasty, but for Wakanda forever, I don't know, like I just, I really loved it that much. I wanted to like keep rewatching it. And, and I've said this like before, but I think that it's the best paced, like long movie I've ever seen. Like, I only started feeling the running time on like my fourth viewing, which I think is a testament to how well done it is.
Speaker 3 00:03:01 What's interesting about that to me is, you know, I've seen it three or four times now and I think by the second time my bladder felt it. So like I feel like that, that while what you're saying, yeah, it was a great movie. It's a paste. It was super long to me. So even though it was good that I think that that time definitely really w wore me down a little bit,
Speaker 1 00:03:22 I saw it once. So I'm in the minority here and the time, the time didn't bother me, but like, it, it was like a very heavy movie. It was really well-paced and really well done. But it's just like such big emotional stakes for me. Like, I basically started crying from the moment, like I started watching it. So that was a lot for me to, you know, just have for that period of time. So I'm curious to see what you guys think about the emotional stakes and like whether or not it was a heavy movie or, or what
Speaker 3 00:03:52 You know about the emotional stakes. I think it's interesting 'cause you mentioned that first scene and I remember the first time I was sitting there in the theater and I, as that initial scene's kind of rolling and you know, spoiler warning, we're gonna be talking about some of the spoilers here. But as you start to hear like, like the beeping and the machines and the panic in these people's voices, and this was, you know, a group of people that have been very, um, well put together. And so to see them kind of having this moment of like panic made me cry instantaneously at every subsequent time that I went to go see the film, I actually started crying prior to the film starting be because I knew what was coming and I was like priming myself for that because it was hugely, it was this huge emotion from start to finish. Like the whole movie is about grief and I guess the whole phase four is about grief, but that entire movie is just not just, not just these characters, but this casting crew grieving the loss of someone whose shoes we couldn't fill. Like we couldn't recast him. Um, and that I think that you had to feel that emotion. I think anybody that sees, that's gonna feel that emotion,
Speaker 1 00:04:53 I think you made that comment on our prior podcast too, that, you know, the actors and actresses and and cast and crew really seemed like they were feeling it. They weren't acting like these were real emotions and they were really, um, like they, they were just suffering and, and there was this loss. So I think that also makes it so much more powerful because it's a real thing they really lost. I mean, we all lost somebody. They really lost somebody.
Speaker 2 00:05:17 I definitely think that you feel that emotion run through the movie. And that's why I was always like very against the idea of recasting to challah because I think that when you see what's created in Wakanda forever and how cathartic and helpful to like the grieving process it was to the people that knew him. Um, I think that like the, the movie is very heavy. It definitely, it has a lot of emotional weight. Um, like you guys have said that opening scene is like, it, it hits you like a truck, especially the very first time you see it when you're just completely unprepared for it. But I have to say, like once I'd seen the movie once and like kind of knowing what was coming, I didn't cry on my first viewing. I'm not a big like crier during movies, but I got like very close to it multiple times.
Speaker 2 00:06:04 And I guarantee like if I was home like alone and not in a theater full of people with like my friend next to me, I would've been like a crying wreck. Um, but, but, but on subsequent viewings you kind of know what's coming. And then also on subsequent viewings, like I really felt like that kind of wave of grief like wash over you the first time you watch it. And then the other times I watched it, I was like digging more into like the little nuances. And that's something that like, I didn't love about the movie walking out of it the first time. Um, and there's very little I didn't love, but one of the things I felt was that, uh, Sheri, who's obviously like the lead of this movie the first time I felt like Rwanda was like a much bigger deal for like the first half of the movie.
Speaker 2 00:06:49 So I felt like Sheri didn't really solidify into the protagonist until Rwanda had died. Um, and I also didn't love Rwanda dying at first for personal reasons. 'cause Angela Bassett is great. And then also because I felt like her grief kind of began to take like precedence over like the loss of tchaa. And so I didn't like love those feelings, but then with each subsequent viewing I felt that less and less. And I think that that's also like, kind of what I liked about watching it multiple times is even the few minor things I didn't like the first time were pretty much gone by like the fourth viewing. So
Speaker 1 00:07:24 I didn't read spoilers or anything before going into this film. Like I didn't seek them out and I didn't realize that she was going to, Armanda was going to die. And I was a little bit in disbelief in that scene that, that, you know, that was what was happening. And, um, I thought that I, I thought that, um, you know, Sheri being held back and just all of that, I just, that was very, um, very powerful for me and I thought that was really well done. And I agree with you. I think that was kind of like almost her inciting incident that kind of set her on, um, like being the main character of the film. So I I agree with you there.
Speaker 3 00:08:05 And I think that was a real turning point in her grieving process too because you know, there, there, there's all these stages of grieving and that was when she went from like refusing to like move on or like, if you refusing to like actually start the grieving process to, you gotta see that angry side of her. And I know a lot of people were very upset about her being so angry, but it makes sense because as someone who's grieving, you have to start, start somewhere. And hers was to start with anger and then get to acceptance. And I think that acceptance scene was probably the best scene and the best payoff for what happened when we got to the end. And she's hearing the wind and like that was another part that did make me cry because she finally kind of accepted this, her role in all of this and the world that's now changed because she lost not only her brother who was important to her, but her mom, she has no support system anymore. Um, and so I think that that's a really good launching point to see, see where she's gonna go from there.
Speaker 2 00:08:58 And I do want to say like about Rwanda's death, I knew like a couple of things going into the movie, but I really tried to avoid spoilers. So I didn't know that Rwanda was going to die. I was like, I knew like people were theorizing it. We had seen that scene with like name more flying up to her in the trailer, but the whole time it was happening I was just so better to happen. And then just like the cut from like Rhonda's dying to her funeral, um, that's like, that's also like very aggressive because like the movie started with the funeral. It's like that's the opening scene. You don't expect to see Sheri in that position again. And every single time I watched the movie, whoever I was with, like when it cuts to Sheri in her funeral clothes for the second time, like everyone like looks at me and they're always like, what? Like, is this real? And I'm like, yeah. Like it's, it's just insane.
Speaker 3 00:09:54 Do you think that was necessary for her journey? Like do you think she could have had this journey at all without the loss of her parent? Because part of me wants to say yes, because again, Angela Bassett, I don't wanna lose her. But at the same time I think that it was necessary to have this very alone moment to really have that, to really start that process. I think she could have eventually got to the process of dealing with it, but I think that what you saw earlier in the film was a lot of people were handling her grief for her. Like her mom was being super protective. You don't take her out, you don't go show her the world, like stop what you're doing. Um, and then there's actually the guards who were there to protect her and nobody's allowed her to actually have that grownup moment of dealing with her grief on her own. And so I think that you almost had to remove that, that piece of the puzzle. Though I will say it's funny 'cause when I saw it with my nephew, he turned and looked at me and said quite loudly in this theater, and I, he said, what is with Disney killing off parents? And I was like, that you're fair. You're right. But I think that it was really was needed for this.
Speaker 1 00:10:53 Disney definitely loves to do that. Um, be it with Disney princesses or, or anybody else. Um, I think that I I think you totally nailed it, that cherri, you know, needed to, it, it's, it's her kind of taking ownership for, for herself almost. She's gotta she has to, it's her making her own decisions on how she's gonna deal with that. And I think we really see that too when, you know, she takes the, the blue herb and or the heart-shaped herb and the ancestors Killmonger. Like that is, you know, that was her choice instead of, instead of her mom. And I think that's, you know, that's in that's interesting.
Speaker 2 00:11:31 I could we, I could talk about that scene for like hours <laugh>, um, but I sorry,
Speaker 3 00:11:36 Say that I wanted,
Speaker 2 00:11:38 I wanted to answer your question, Brian, about like, oh, like, do you think that the loss of, um, of Armando was necessary and let me just say, Disney has done the Wakanda royal family so dirty, like in two movies, three quarters of them are, are dead. And I know that one of our, uh, fellow writers, VIN, he said that when Cherie was stabbed, uh, through the stomach by Namor in the final battle, he thought that she was a goner with the way that Marvel's killing off the Wakanda royal family. And I also, I I didn't really think that she was gonna die, but I was like, like the thought popped into my head. I was like, would they really kill her off too? Um, and I I I totally agree with like the alone part that like Sheri needed to be alone. Um, I'm also tempted to say that like they could have removed Rwanda in other ways, such as why couldn't name her just kidnap her.
Speaker 2 00:12:28 Uh, but that would be out of a selfish want to keep Angela Bassett. Um, but also what kind of clicked for me is, like I said, the first time I felt like Rama's death, like overpowered to Chales to a degree that I didn't really love. But then I also realized that like Black Panther too, like they rewrote Wakanda forever in like a six month span after Chadwick Boseman's death. And after seeing the movie so many times, I fully believe that Armando's death would be like, was always in the script. I think that that was always like the big turning point, even when it was gonna be about tchalla, which seems really rude to him to kill his father in the first movie and then his mother in the second. Um, but when I kind of look at it through that lens of like, Rwanda's death was like the kind of like inciting incident that like the entire movie revolved around in both iterations, um, I think it makes more sense to me why she died. And while I don't love it, I think that it was a strong choice that had had like good, had a good effect on Sheri as a character.
Speaker 3 00:13:28 I will say about the idea of having Romana kidnapped, while it would've been an interesting dynamic to see, I think it kind of goes back to what I was saying where there still would've been like some kind of like force and power to protect Sheri because Queen Romana would still be alive. So the Queen Guard would still like, okay, you have to stay here and you have to be protected. We're gonna go save the queen. And there would still be like this different power dynamic where the only thing that could happen now that everyone in her royal family is dead is that she has to step up. And so like that really changes and shifts a huge, a huge perspective for her because there's not just anyone to, to, to go back to. Um, so as much as I think that would've been a cool idea, I don't know if like, if you think about like the politics of it, I don't know if it would've worked out the way you wanted to, but I think that it was definitely, it's a good alternative. I think
Speaker 1 00:14:20 That,
Speaker 2 00:14:20 Yeah, I don't, sorry. I was gonna say like I don't, I I don't mean it as like a, as like a good choice for the movie. I mean <laugh> like as a good choice to keep Angela Bassett around. But yeah, I totally agree from that perspective and especially like seeing how Sheri has to step up, like Rwanda's death was unfortunately necessary. Um, and I think Angela Bassett knew it too, which is why she gave us the performance of a lifetime.
Speaker 1 00:14:42 It was such an incredible performance. And I agree with you guys. I wish she could have stayed around, but I think too, you know, if she had been kidnapped, there's, um, so there's I think a line or a scene in, in this movie where Sheri says that, you know, her, her mom's hopes and dreams for her are, are gone 'cause she's dead. And if she had been kidnapped those hopes and dreams would still would still exist too because she isn't dead. And I think that like kind of makes the point there that she has to be dead for like you guys said, for her to, for sure. To, to evolve.
Speaker 2 00:15:12 I was gonna say, I think the solution here is that Angela Bassett plays Rand's twin sister <laugh> in Lavia three.
Speaker 3 00:15:20 I don't think this is the last time we see her. I think that there's definitely a part in Secret Wars where she's coming either from the multiverse or the ancestral plane because I still think that when Secret Wars and all of the planets ha come together in their incursion, I fully believe that both, uh, Valhalla and the Spirito plane are gonna be coming back because they're still just realities. And so I think that this is all gonna come together and you're gonna see her back and there's gonna be this touching moment where she's gonna see her mom and it's either gonna resolve her or it's going to absolve her of all the guilt and the fear that she's had or that she's still carrying onto. Because even though we see her have that moment, I'm sure there's still gonna be some stuff that she's dealing with emotionally.
Speaker 3 00:16:04 Um, but kind of going off of the, the, the Queen Ramon's death, I kind of have a question for both of you. It's just, you know, we spent all this time trying to, um, humanize namor and like we spent the whole time, you know, under the sea, which was my least favorite part. I'm gonna be honest with you. It felt like it was unnecessary because of they tried to humanize him within 15 to 20 minutes later he's throwing a bomb and killing her, like killing Queen Raimondo. And that felt like that was an unnecessary trip for absolutely nothing. So like what do you think of like NAMM War's journey here from like hero to villain to antihero, whatever it's kind of going on.
Speaker 1 00:16:43 So I have a lot of thoughts about him and we haven't talked about the big M factor, the fact that he said he's a mutant, right? And that's kind of incredible for the M C U and just overall. Um, I will make a comment about the underwater stuff. I don't know. So, you know, when they're first, the ccia is first trying to get the, um, vibranium under the sea and they have these big diving suits and they've got the drill and stuff and there was the jellyfish. I kept thinking back to the movie sphere and I was just like waiting for Dustin Hoffman to like do something. I don't know, like it's just, it, it like creeped me out a lot. So I I agree. Maybe less underwater stuff. And I was wondering, you know, it was really well done. I kept wondering about the technical aspects because like they were very clearly underwater for, for a lot of this. And I know that, um, Brian Coler learned to swim 'cause a lot of their, like his actors were, uh, underwater for filming this and he wanted to be able to do that as well. So, um, I'm amazed at that, the technical aspects. But uh, it, it just kind of felt like we, we got the point that it was a really cool city and I just felt like we were lingering a lot in there.
Speaker 2 00:17:56 So that's interesting 'cause I don't agree with that. I, I liked the underwater stuff a lot and to me that's what keeps the movie from feeling too long is that kind of like jolt of energy you get when Sheri like sees like telecon for the first time. And I really loved that. I would say like, like the movie does slow down a little bit in the second act. Like when you get to Namor and then, you know, there's a lot of flashbacks like with his origin story and then like, yeah, then you're going to telecon and then he's doing like I have to say that I thought Namor was doing the exact same thing as Kill longer, where he's like, we're gonna take on every single country in the entire world because we're better than them. And that's not like a bad thing. It was just an observation. I don't think that they were very similar villains at all. But like that, that conversation he had with Sherry, I was like, I was like, sure you're stuck in a cycle. I was like this this was you like free Snapp, um, <laugh>.
Speaker 3 00:18:48 But I didn't think of it that way. That's that you're so right.
Speaker 2 00:18:51 But yeah, I mean it's just, it's the same thing. It's, we're better than them 'cause we have vibranium, so let's go, uh, attack every other country. And honestly I don't get Nemore's plan like was Nemore's plan to kill the entire surface world or just to destroy all their militaries so that they had to like, so that they were humbled. Like, 'cause the way he was talking about it made it seem like he wanted everyone on Earth dead except for them. And I'm like, that sounds really boring. Like, I'm not gonna lie. Like if you're the only people on earth, like that sounds like a really boring existence.
Speaker 1 00:19:20 It sounded like that to me too. And I thought that, you know, I, I have lots of thoughts about his motivations and it was interesting too because his people originally came from like, from the land and like presumably there are still like people, innocent people on the land who aren't, you know, conquering folks. So I thought, you know, maybe destroying the whole world is, is a lot, you know, just because I thought he, I like, I really liked Namar. I thought he was really interesting. I thought it was just a really cool character and then like, no, I mean you wanna get rid of everyone on Earth. No, that kind of makes you a little less sympathetic.
Speaker 3 00:19:56 I say it also just, it felt like his motivations were shifting all the time. Like especially in that scene where he is talking to Sherry and he was just like, no, it's not, we no longer can find peace. We just, you know, it's not just about Revi Williams, it's about the entire world. And I was like, I was like, pick a lane here, man. Like mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm <affirmative>, I get that you're like this, this villain, but this doesn't make any sense. Like I feel like you're just acting out of emotion, but you're supposed to be this like great leader and you're act you're not acting out of like logic or what's actually best for your people.
Speaker 2 00:20:29 I do agree with that because it's like, like Cherri goes to Telecon so that he won't kill Riri. He tells her I wanna kill Ri Ri then he gives her the backstory, takes her underwater and he's like, this is why I need to kill Riri. And then two minutes later he's like, it's not about Riri. And I'm like, dude, couldn't you have had that, like, that shift makes perfect sense to me. I totally agree with what he's saying. It's not about Riri people know how to do this. Just because they kill her doesn't mean someone won't stop. You know, it, it doesn't mean that someone can't do it again in the future. Like why can't they go to uh, to Riri, I almost said Cheri's professor and like get the plans for the vibranium machine. Like she had to turn that in for her grade.
Speaker 2 00:21:07 So there's some school academic record of it mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So yeah, like it's not about Riri 'cause anyone can make a vibranium machine like in that kind of world that they're living in. But that shift I do agree, would've been like a little bit more natural if it happened when Sheri was first brought there and like, like her first interaction with Namor, like in that grotto. If it had been that it's not just about Riri anymore. Um, but I I I will also say that I hated Namor with a burning passion walking out of my first viewing. Not in like a, he's a bad character way, but I have never felt such contempt for a Marvel villain walking outta that movie for the first time. Even Thanos, I was likes even Thanos, I'm like, at least Thanos. I'm like, you, you know, like Thanos had, Thanos had certain points very bad, um, very bad like ways of going about it. But like the, what Namor did to those people, I was just like, my job was open when Sheri had him like on the ground, I was like, kill him. I was like, who cares? Just kill him. And I'm like, I know you can't kill him because he needs his own movie and all this other stuff in the M C U, but I was just like begging her to kill him. And I mean, I guess that's good 'cause it shows that Marvel made a good antagonist.
Speaker 1 00:22:23 You know, you mentioned, uh, Sheri not killing him. Do you think that would, would we, would people still respect Sheri? Would she still be, um, who she is if she had made the choice to kill him? Because that seems like a pretty pivotal moment
Speaker 3 00:22:40 From the way the story was set up. It would've really mimicked Killmonger, which I think is what they were trying to show is that she's not Killmonger and that she's also was trying to like at first get revenge and it wasn't a, you know, the difference about is that about the Avengers is that they're trying to avenge people and not re get revenge. And so I think like her motive was slightly different, even though you're totally right. Everybody has so much blood on their hands in these movies that it's ridiculous. But she, she had the motive of trying to set out to hurt him on purpose 'cause she had been hurt and she wasn't just trying to hurt for, you know, her mom, but she was, I think she was also had the grief of her brother that she was also throwing into that. And so it was, it was compounded and that, I think that's where it's coming from. And I'm glad she almost didn't kill him because I think that it would have looked wrong to have this new Black Panther be the one to just lead with like this iron fist of killing someone and said she showed mercy and that is who her mother was and that is what her mother would have wanted. And that is exactly what, what should have happened in my eyes.
Speaker 1 00:23:47 And there's that flashback too to the ancestral plane with, with her mother that makes that point, you know, if right there that, you know, her mother believes that she, she's, you know, better than that and that the Wakas are better than that.
Speaker 2 00:24:02 And I, I mean I do agree with that, but I mean I would also say that like, yes, the Avengers avenge people, but sure killing Namor would be avenging Rwanda. Um, but I mean also in that same vein, Killmonger, uh, well I don't, I I don't, I don't wanna get into the whole Killmonger stuff right now 'cause I I have, I have suffered thoughts on that. But um, but yes, I agree that it would have felt very kill Monie to kill Namor that would have tipped her into the camp of being like her father and Killmonger who are people that she definitely like, she definitely has some of their instincts, but she isn't she, she isn't them. And something else about Wakanda forever is that after my first viewing I was like, oh, I wish that we got anything about Sheri and her dad. 'cause we never saw them interact apart from her saying like she says like, oh, first Baba and now my brother after they think tchalla is dead in the first movie.
Speaker 2 00:24:55 That's the only time she ever mentions him. We know nothing about Sheri and to Chaka, which is something I had kind of like wished that we got in this movie. But then, I mean it also clicked for me that the first Black Panther movie is about fathers and sons. And the second Black Panther movie is about mothers and daughters. And Sheri's Arc, I think in this movie, perfectly mirrors to Challahs from Civil War and from Black Panther right down to that same line used when she's standing over Namor. Like that vengeance has consumed us line from civil war. And um, and I also think that it's very powerful that she makes the decision to be like Rwanda, like Tchaa made the decision to not be like Zemo and not be like the Avengers in Civil War. And he made the decision to not be like his father in Black Panther. So I like that Sheri makes the decision to be like her mother, who even though she didn't really agree with her on certain things at the start of the movie,
Speaker 1 00:25:49 There's almost a hint of the, um, of the father story though, of like a moment of bonding. 'cause Riri has the car, right? And it's towards the end of the movie and the car was Riri re's father's and you know, Sheri Sheri understands there's that like unspoken almost, um, you know, bonding of grief that the both, both of those, uh, women have, you know, undergone there. And I think that's kind of a nod to the story with her father too.
Speaker 2 00:26:17 That's interesting. 'cause I actually, um, like I read that moment as her still feeling the loss of like Ella and her mother, like none of my six years weeks did I ever think about Tchaa. But that, that is like, that would be like an interesting like bond, like bond over grief that they could explore with Riri and Sheri in the future.
Speaker 3 00:26:38 You know, something interesting Uday that you brought up was that about how the first movie was about fathers and sons and this one's about mothers and daughters. And I think that there is another mother-daughter relationship that is brought up in this film that not a lot of people were talking about and not in the traditional sense of mother and daughter, but I think that one of the integral relationships in this film was also Romana and um, AOE and how there was this, there was this relationship almost like a mother that she like looked up to her and she had this esteem for Romanda. And when Angela Bassis gave us that fantastic scene that gave, gives me chills every time I see it of just about talking about losing everything, there is this like broken relationship bet between like a disappointed daughter and and a mom. And I thought, I think that's also a very interesting thing when you, when you talk about this movie being that dynamic, that that is such an important part of this film going through because we see it in multiple stages from like a very strong relationship at the beginning to a broken one before Ramonda dies. And we don't get to see a a we don't get to see any reunion or made better with that.
Speaker 2 00:27:51 And, um, and I mean also Rand's called Queen Mother, right? She's, she's the mother to all of Wakanda and that's not something that they really explored in the first movie, but like, you really feel it here, you know, like with Nakia and Koya like crying and like calling her like mother, like while they tried to uh, revive her. And even like what Killmonger says, like about how Armanda sacrificed herself to save Riri, like that also is kind of like a motherly moment. And um, and I mean, 'cause Riri had asked if she could call her mom and I don't think, I don't think they let her 'cause we didn't see it. Um, but I mean Ramonda still protected her like in that same way that like a mother would mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I think that like, that was also like a really powerful moment.
Speaker 1 00:28:37 I think, I don't, I don't remember who says that, but they draw attention to it in the movie too. They say that, you know, she treated Riri like, like one of her own, one of like her mm-hmm Wakanda family members. And you know, I think that just, you know, hammers that point in
Speaker 3 00:28:51 And not only just that, it also at the very end of the movie, even though it wasn't a mother daughter, but you got to see an, the start of another mother relationship and how, you know, there, there's another kid there, you know, uh, tchaa has his son and you get to see that motherly instinct, um, from Akia and that I think that is like the perfect like full circle moment. We went from, you know, fathers and sons to mothers to daughters to the fact that we're starting the cycle over again. And like, I think that's also what this movie was about too, was about life is cyclical and like everything comes back around and through that we heal. And so the fact that we got to see that new buddying relationship of a mother and a child that was so strong throughout this whole series so far, I think it was like the right, the right ending.
Speaker 1 00:29:42 Now I know that we are getting a little bit short on time, so I wanted to bring up, um, stepping away a little bit from Wakanda and you know, bring up, uh, Val and bring up Ross and bring up, you know, all of that dynamic and searching for vibranium and you know, do you guys think that there are bigger implications for this? What, because Val is revealed to be basically the head of the c i A here and she arrests her husband for treason. Um, you know, there are some big things happening. What do you guys think about that? I
Speaker 3 00:30:16 Think that that whole storyline was a huge setup for what's coming next and I think we're gonna see this play out, you know, in Captain America, uh, new World order. We're gonna see it play on Thunderbolt. I think it's gonna play into Wakanda's TV show, um, if that's still happening, hopefully. But I think that there is some huge implications because sh you know, valil has been this individual who has just like done little tiny spurts of popping up here and there throughout the, the MCU phase four. And she's scary, she's terrifying. Like when she just, she's just in his house and has the handcuffs and just, she, you know, I first off I never would've thought, you know, that Julia would've been able to do this. Like I know her from Seinfeld. This part's kind of so far removed from that. I think that like we are headed to something, we're headed to a world war of a different kind. And I think that's why you're gonna start to see in Captain America New World order that part of that new world order is veil ready to take over the world.
Speaker 2 00:31:25 I um, I wrote an article back in like October about how, and I mean this is a feeling I've been having since the summer when they announced uh, like the upcoming slate so you guys know I haven't loved like all of phase four, I have found it to be very disjointed. I've really been missing what the little connections I've really been missing the little connections between projects. That's like the biggest thing to me is like if something is really good and it's not connected to the M C U, I don't care. But if I find something to be kind of like mediocre or like sloppy and then it's also not connected, I'm kind of like, well like why'd you make it if it wasn't like, if it wasn't that good and it doesn't like serve a purpose in the larger franchise, then like kind of why does it exist?
Speaker 2 00:32:05 Um, which is a conversation that people are having about content in general. And obviously opinions differ, but I've really been missing little, little connections like, like on the level of Tony popping up at the end of the Incredible Hulk and I and I wrote this article and I had said something about how like the most anyone's ever appeared in a phase four project is like two times. And Val broke that streak with Wakanda forever by appearing three times and her inclusion set up kind of this future. And that's what the larger article was about, about how we don't have any crossovers before King Dynasty and we need something, we need like an earth level Avengers threat even if we're not getting an Avengers movie. And I think that that is 100% what Val is bringing in New world order with Thunderbolt Ross and in Thunderbolts 'cause she is on the team.
Speaker 2 00:32:59 So I'm really excited. I wanna write another like theory about what she's planning. But you know, we've heard rumors and obviously we know from this movie that she wants vibranium and I thought it was really nice to have her in this movie in a little bit of a larger role. I thought like the last two scenes with her were awkwardly edited in like, I don't think that they were like awkward themselves, but they were like very short and I thought just like cut in really weirdly. Um, so I've seen some people saying that they should just remove that, that side plot. But I do not agree with that at all because it also lends credence to name more. It makes name namor more believable. 'cause if he's saying this stuff and you're not seeing anything from like the US you're gonna be like, well Namor is just making assumptions. And he is, but those assumptions are backed up by Val's inclusion and, and like when, when she says that line about how she dreams of like the US being the only country with vibranium, like that like gives me chills and like other people like that got a reaction in like the first like four screenings I was in.
Speaker 1 00:33:59 I'm so glad you mentioned that line 'cause I wanted to talk about that too. And that totally like made her that much more, um, interesting of a character because we, we didn't really know her motivations before, right? Because she was like, she in Hawkeye, she is like kind of a mercenary, almost paid paying to, or like she was paid by Eleanor Bishop to kind of, you know, do, um, dispose of someone. She uh, she recruited somebody, us agent in Captain American, we like, we don't really know what her deal is and now we're getting a real, uh, clearer sense of her motivations. So I thought that was interesting and on your point that like we needed to have Everett, Ross and Ba as like proof that people did want vibranium, that people did have motives, um, and we're going after Wakanda and all of that and, and Namor. And I thought that was that's absolutely right because I think they're the, like they're the bad guy of movie in a way.
Speaker 3 00:34:57 You know, there's a rumor going around recently that um, the uh, I can't the giant hand from Eternals, I can't think of, of what they're called
Speaker 1 00:35:06 Celestial, right?
Speaker 3 00:35:07 I think that's the Celeste, thank you <laugh>. Yeah. The celestial. That that that is Atium. I think that if that's true, that's gonna be playing a really interesting part because that would be America's um, vibranium if they can get it. And so like I think that while this search for vibranium is gonna take part, if that rumor's true veil's gunning for that. And I think that is what's really going to change the structure of the global M C U going forward is that there's no coming back from once she gets that it's gonna be game over.
Speaker 2 00:35:43 I found that rumor to be a little bit interesting 'cause I was like, didn't scarcely turn the whole thing to marble. So even if it was Adam anum, it's just like a bunch of marble now. But I mean, I guess we'll see, I do think that that would be really cool. Maybe a very nice way to tie Eternals in. Um, like that that would be probably the best way that they could tie Eternals like so strongly into like whatever's coming next by making that celestial be like the source of a world war for like this medal. Um, but I mean I've, I've seen a lot of people on Twitter being like, oh my God, Val is so annoying. They're like, I just want her to die. Like it's only been three projects. And I, I'm like sick of seeing her and I'm like, I don't get that.
Speaker 2 00:36:19 I think Julia Luie Dreyfuss is great. I think that her scenes are really setting or they're kind of charting like a really interesting path for the M C U especially in this, you know, like kind of earth-based spy level like arena. Um, but I've also, I also think that if you don't get Val, you need to watch Veep because if you watch Veep and you realize that Val is basically just Selena Meyer with a purple streak in her hair, um, I think you'll be a lot more scared and also a lot more interested because if Selena Meyer had a stash of vibranium, she would totally blow up the entire world probably by accident. And that is horrifying <laugh>,
Speaker 3 00:36:58 Uh, I've never seen Veep, but now I feel like I have to go see Veep.
Speaker 1 00:37:02 Yeah, I haven't seen it either. I've only, like, I only know her as Elaine from Seinfeld and I think it, you know, having had that for trial, like I think she does a great job as Val because like I don't get Elaine vibes at all. She's just, you know, scary lady.
Speaker 3 00:37:19 So looking at then, uh, because you know, Uday you kind of said about like the espionage, the world, the world structure, um, she's kind of the big player right now. Do you think it's possible that we see here in secret invasion? Because I feel like that is like right up her alley and we know that Everett Ross is gonna be in it and so it feels like it's only a hop and a skip away from getting to see Veil show up in there and maybe get to play a bigger part with more power moves.
Speaker 2 00:37:46 So, so like I said, I still need to, I still need to finish my post Wakanda forever val theory, but I fully believe she will, she'll be in secret invasion, although I also thought she would be in Hawkeye and she was like just barely like not even mentioned by name. So although again could have been covid restrictions, maybe she couldn't shoot a cameo. Um, so I hope to see her in secret invasion. I think it would make a lot of sense. But that kind of ties into my belief that armor wars is going to be like where this world war for Wakanda happens. And if you'll notice, uh, Falcon and the Winter Soldier is like the only project that is tied to New World order and Thunderbolts and um, and armor wars because of like roadie and Sam and Sam. Yeah, that's his name. <laugh>, Sam Wilson <laugh>, um, and Bucky,
Speaker 1 00:38:35 That's Captain America.
Speaker 2 00:38:37 Yes, yes, it's <laugh>. Um, well 'cause I just think of him as Captain America, so sometimes I forget his name. Um, but yeah, I, I think that like, that kind of intersection is also gonna happen in secret invasion 'cause we know we're gonna see Rodie, we know we're gonna see Ross and like Fury and Hill and I am hoping Val and it's a long been rumored that there might be a cameo from Anthony Mackie in secret Invasion. So I'm really hoping that like Val starts to, starts to beef with him a little bit there, even if it's like offscreen beef.
Speaker 1 00:39:07 And do you guys have any final thoughts on Wakanda forever that, you know, we haven't talked about anything that you're just, you know, dying to get off your chest? Do they six times you saw it? What haven't we talked about?
Speaker 2 00:39:20 Um, I did wanna talk a little bit about Killmonger. Um, the scene of him with Sheri in the ancestral plane is one of my favorites in the M C U, if not my favorite. I think I knew he would be in the ancestral plane that was leaked like a year ago, but, and I didn't think that he'd be nice now, but I didn't think he'd be so mean <laugh>. Um, and I thought that that was a very powerful scene. I thought it was very powerful to point out how flawed Tal and her father were. 'cause I mean, I agree like Tal did let her dad's murderer get off scot-free and um, and I really loved how angry Sheri was. I don't understand people that don't like her rage. I think that her rage is entirely justified. It is such an interesting place to take her character.
Speaker 2 00:40:05 And like, one of the things that I love the most about Wakanda forever is I feel like it might be the best movie sequel I have ever seen, especially like in the modern era. Um, 'cause I'm sure there's older movies that might have better sequels that I haven't watched, like The Godfather. Um, but I think that the way Wakanda forever transforms the first movie is like second to none, especially in the M C U. You'll never be able to watch the first Black Panther again without like looking at Kilman group burning the heart-shaped herb and like knowing that that's what dooms like to Chala and Romanda or even like looking at Cherri being like a happy child, like joking with her brother and then thinking about where she's gonna go by the end of the second movie. Um, so I think it just really succeeds like in that regard.
Speaker 1 00:40:52 I appreciate that they do allow her to be angry and to have that rage because I don't think a lot of the women in the M C U have had that opportunity. Um, I have a lot of problems with how kind of women in the M C U are maybe not totally three-dimensional. And I think just the full range of emotions and getting that character development is something I very much appreciate with Sure. In this movie.
Speaker 3 00:41:18 I will say about, just going back real quick, the Killmonger scene was excellent. I was expecting him to be a little bit more peaceful or like have found a, you know, I don't wanna say even peace, but just have found acceptance in his role in all this. And there was still a lot of that anger and I thought like, how can you have anger when you're in like the ancestral plane and you're like, so everyone just seems so happy and like things are so chill. So that did surprised me a little bit. I'm glad to see also the three-dimensional women as well. And I think the one thing we didn't talk about that really stuck out to me about this film is we got Re Williams and for her introduction, she was a really well-rounded three D individual, which I was kind of shocked on because, you know, as much as I loved like Agatha Harkness, Agatha is very two-dimensional in the fact that she is just a villain.
Speaker 3 00:42:05 And we didn't really get to see a lot of that yet because it wasn't her story. And while this wasn't Riri story, you had the excitement of flying in that, uh, uh, in her suit and you got the grief of her dad and you got saw a little bit of like, don't touch the car but then gave in. And then like there, there's just so many levels and she's so important to the story. And I just thought like, wow, this is how you introduce a character and this is how you do it. Right? And I hope that that continues in Iron Heart and that we don't backtrack on that.
Speaker 1 00:42:34 I think her introduction was amazing and she is so appealing as a character. And I think if you didn't, uh, if you weren't looking forward to Iron Heart before, I think that this movie makes it so like you're excited about it. Well, at least for me, like I I'm so much more excited about Iron Heart after this movie.
Speaker 2 00:42:51 Yeah. I, I love riri. I was an Iron Man stand before age of Ultron when Wanda stole my heart and now that Wanda's taking a little break and we've got Riri, I can just feel that like crawling out of my, crawling out of my heart again, like my Iron Man love. Um, but I, I love Free Ri and I'm so excited for Iron Heart. And the last thing that I wanted to say is on that like, kind of three dimensional women comment, um, the movie that was supposed to kick off phase four was Black Widow. Um, and Vission ended up going first. Uh, I thought Vission was a good portrayal of like, of a three-dimensional woman and Black Widow was as well for the most part. But I do think that one thing that stood out for me in Black Widow was they couldn't let Natasha still have skeletons in her closet, which is why the worst thing she ever did in her life, which was killing a child, uh, was undone in that movie. And that was like the one thing that I really hated about that movie. And so I love that we're kind of ending phase four with a three-dimensional woman who, yeah, Cherie isn't going around killing Namor, but I think that she got closer to that line than like any other Marvel hero and I really, really enjoyed how far they were willing to push her.
Speaker 1 00:44:01 Well I think that might be all the time we have and I think that's a really great note to end things on. Um, so thank you again for being here with us. Um, tune in next time for more awesome, nerdy discussion. And until Ben, you can read more of our
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