Cosmic Circle Ep. 40: LGBTQ+ Representation in Media

Speaker 0 00:00:00 <silence> Speaker 1 00:00:17 Welcome back listeners to another episode of the Cosmic Circle, the official podcast of the Cosmic Circus. On today's episode, we will be discussing a topic that is near and dear to my heart, queer content in film and television, both past, present, and hopefully future. My name is Brian Kitson, head writer at The Cosmic Circus, and joining me today are Izzy Friedman and Uday Kataria. How are we doing? You two. Speaker 2 00:00:40 Hi everyone, this is Uday. Um, I'm doing great today. How are you? Speaker 3 00:00:45 Hi, uh, this is Izzy. I'm also doing great. Happy to be here. Glad to talk about this, a very important topic that I have a lot of thoughts about. <laugh>, Speaker 1 00:00:54 Thank you so much for joining us, Uday, always. It's a pleasure to have you, but Izzy, we're so excited to have you on this one and such a special topic because, um, this is, you know, a community that we're all a part of and that we are, you know, hopefully getting representation for. But, you know, before we can talk about where we are currently, I think sometimes we have to go back and look at where we've been. So, starting with you Uday, what is your, earliest me a memory of queer content in film and television? You know, were you young? Were you, you know, a teenager? What was the show and how did it feel to you? Speaker 2 00:01:29 Um, I think I was like almost a teenager. 'cause I think I was 11 or 12. I was watching how I met Your Mother, and I think it was Barney's Stepbrother being gay was probably the first I saw of that kind of content on screen. Um, I don't really know that I felt a certain way about it. I didn't know that I was gay at the time, um mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but I did think that it was like, I, I didn't, I didn't think anything of it. Like, it just felt kind of normal, I guess, which is the goal. Right. So. Speaker 1 00:01:58 Right. You know, what's interesting about that show that too, is that it featured, you know, Neil Patrick Harris, who is gay, but he was playing a straight role. And so like, the fact that they had some kind of representation, I wonder if it was better than maybe some of the other ones, because they have someone of such, you know, uh, stature in our community to be a part of, um, the TV show. So, I mean, maybe that's something to think about. All right. Izzy, what was your oldest memory? Speaker 3 00:02:25 All right. I actually have two, but one of them was like an unofficial little YouTube series that was just about lesbian vampires. Speaker 1 00:02:35 Yes. <laugh>. Oh, Speaker 3 00:02:36 It was fantastic. It was like one of those adaptations when people were doing all the classics, but as vlogs. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, they were doing like Carmilla, and she was talking about how she had a crush on a person named Danny, and I was like, Danny, who's he? And she shows up and she's a girl, and it was, it blew my mind. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And that was my first positive experience where Okay. I, I, I kept showing it to all of of my friends and being like, you think that Danny's a boy? It's not a boy <laugh>, she's a girl. I was so excited. And all my friends were like, yeah, cool. Like, they didn't get why it was insane for me. Uh, but before that, it was one of those things that I didn't really think about till later. Uh, it was the show Friends, uh, which upon rewatching I realized the issues that are there with the show friends. Speaker 3 00:03:22 But, um, when I was little, all I saw was there are two girls getting married. That's crazy. Um, and it, it was, it was a big thing for me. Uh, even though I didn't know why I didn't like put two and two together at all and then rewatching it, I was like, oh, in that scene they don't even really kiss. And the whole point of their relationship is to kind of make fun of Ross's masculinity. Mm-hmm. So that's maybe not great. Uh, so rewatching it kind of ruined the initial childhood joy of it, but it was important for me at the time. I Speaker 1 00:03:52 Feel like that is, speaks on the whole topic of looking back at where we kind of have come with this, uh, uh, representation is that it just, uh, it doesn't hold up as it once did, but you unlocked a core memory because I remember watching faking it and then Carmelo with my friend every week in like, my college years. So I totally forgot about that show until you mentioned that that was a great one. It, it also ended bad, I'm pretty sure, but like, it was great. And Speaker 3 00:04:17 Also I, I think if it ended bad, my brain blocked that out. All I can remember is Cool Vampire Lady, and they kiss in a dorm room, let's go <laugh>. Speaker 1 00:04:28 You know? That's fantastic. And my earliest memories of seeing a gay man on television and film, I've had, I have two of them, and one of them is the Stereotypical Desperate Housewives, which I feel like was just the epitome of every stereotype that has ever existed for any kind of suburban mom and gay man. And there was the couple who they moved in, one was, I think he was a, a doctor, but the other one was like a stay at home dog dad. And it was just very typical messiness and like, that's what you saw a lot on television. I remember growing up, I remember being in high school and seeing that and thinking like, wow, that's really doesn't feel great. Um, and at the time I wasn't out yet. I didn't, I don't even think I was very cognizant of my own sexuality at the time. Speaker 1 00:05:10 Um, but it just didn't feel like great. It felt like that pit in the stomach, something felt wrong. Um, the other one was actually the Stepford Wiss, and I don't know if either one of you have seen the film with Nicole Kidman, but a little bit. One of the, okay. So one of the characters who played one of the gay men in Desperate Housewives actually played one of the gay men in Stepford wives. And it was the same stereotype where one was a politician, the other one was the loud, obnoxious gossip that was causing trouble and, you know, liked Broadway and wore really strong, vibrant colors and was the one that got changed to be a Stepford wife. And because the other one didn't like that he wanted him to be more closeted and he wanted him to be more, you know, uh, not as flamboyant. So it, it was very interesting that those two really stick out to me, um, as to where we kind of were started. And I think I see with what you said too, with friends, like, it doesn't hold up, you know, it doesn't feel great. Speaker 3 00:06:08 No, it really doesn't <laugh>, but it's all this sort of things where I feel like at the time, all this media was either using queerness as the butt of a joke mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, in a way that didn't quite register for me at the time, because I still thought, I didn't know I was queer. So I thought I was part of the joke that we were laughing at mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yes. And then in realizing that, oh, the butt of the joke is me was not great. Speaker 1 00:06:36 I think that, that, it's perfectly highlighted too in the film, the Perfect Man, which I put on the list because I'm a Hillary Duff fan, and sad that her show got canceled, but, um, in the Perfect Man, they use one of the guys from Queer Eye in it. But he is very much the, he's a bartender, but he is very much the stereotypical, everybody's laughing at him. He's the comedic role of, you know, the construction workers are coming into the bar and are ordering drinks, and he's trying to flirt with them all. And it, it, it's definitely problematic in that way. Uday, what do you, do you think that, like looking back, was there a, a model of what was maybe like a good queer representation growing up? Or even like, I guess in your younger years or anything prior to what's on currently or recently in the past on television and film? Speaker 2 00:07:23 I really feel like, like how I Met Your Mother is the only example that I can kind of think of. And obviously Okay. Like the queer representation on that show was not, um, really, it, it wasn't, it wasn't like super explicit, like, it, it was in a couple of episodes. Right. Um, but I'm trying to think of like where else I saw queer Representation, like when I was younger. And I feel like, I feel like until I started getting into like the c w superhero shows like Arrow, I didn't really see any of it. Um, Speaker 1 00:07:53 You didn't watch Glee? Speaker 2 00:07:55 I tried watching Glee. I watched like the first half of season one and I don't remember a single thing unfortunately. Um, yeah, I've got, I've got no idea what happened in Glee. Mm-hmm. But I mean, like, I knew there was a gay character in Glee, but I just didn't think about it that much, you know? Speaker 3 00:08:16 And there was Santana Lopez, the Blueprint Speaker 2 00:08:20 Light of my life. I don't think, see, see, I never even got that far into the show. Like Yeah. Speaker 1 00:08:26 What's what's interesting about Glee is that Elise, from my perspective, that they did really well with Santana and like, I wanna say like, like lesbian representation, but I feel like there was parts of like Blaine and Kurt and there was a football player that was a bully that ended up being gay. There was like some of those that were just very like, eh, I don't know about this. Speaker 3 00:08:47 I would agree with that. Absolutely. Um, yeah, they did pretty good with the lesbians. But then with anything, I felt like, and it was, maybe this is just because Kurt was the first queer character that they introduced mm-hmm. <affirmative>, Kurt for me, felt like a gay character that's written for straight people mm-hmm. <affirmative> in a sense of like, this is what at the time, people could understand a gay character being. And I think he was very, um, important at the time. Absolutely. And I think that their relationship was incredibly important at the time. And some of my friends, that was like the first, that was their first queer experience on TV was seeing that. But yeah, watching it again is, well, it does the Glee thing where every single person kind of has their tiny little minority and they bring it up constantly. And there's even a joke, like, we're all a minority, we're in the Glee club. Like, they're kind of coping that at themselves. But yeah. Parts of that don't hold up <laugh>. Speaker 1 00:09:42 No, absolutely. And I think that that show came out when I was a soft, I might've been a senior in high school, and it was the, like, the epitome of why I didn't wanna come out in high school because like at the beginning, Kurt's bullied for being gay and you know, he's just the gay kid. And that was like his whole identity. And I was just like, listen, I, I was valedictorian in my school and I was in all the smart classes and like, I didn't wanna be known as just the gay kid because of that. And I think that that's gonna tie into something a little bit later when we talk about Heart Stopper, because that comes up quite a bit of just being the gay kid who was bullied for being gay. And, um, that was really scary back in the day. 'cause we didn't have positive as positive representations of, um, queerness. And I think that kind of goes with Rent too. I don't have either of you seen Rent Speaker 3 00:10:33 Many times. I was a theater kid growing up. I'm queer, of course <laugh>. Speaker 1 00:10:38 I I have not seen Rent. That's okay. Ooh. Well, I think rent's just like, while it's very his like, I wanna say like it's, it's representative, like the history, the, that, the time period that it was from, it was also very, it's very sad to watch because it just feel, makes gayness feel so dismal. But also, I mean, Idina Menzel killed, did an f film. So I guess that's Speaker 3 00:11:00 <laugh>. I mean, yeah, I, as a queer theater kid growing up Rent was kind of my gospel for the song Take Me or Leave Me Alone. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> where it's these two women singing at each other and they're like that one line where it's like, women, what is it about them can't live with them or without them? And I was like, yeah, having never dated anyone, um, <laugh>, Speaker 1 00:11:21 <laugh>. Speaker 3 00:11:21 But, um, I do think obviously watching again, there's a little bit like of course it's the bisexual one who cheats on everybody and everything like that. Um, but it was again, important for me to watch growing up. But yeah, I feel like in general, when there was queer content that was made for queer people or it felt like that more, um, it was really sad. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, there was not a lot of happy queerness, um, when it did feel like something that could be kind of relatable. Um, and not just that we're trying to explain gayness to you, it's just here. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it was still like, and everyone dies in the end. 'cause that's what happened. <laugh> Speaker 1 00:12:02 Wasn't there a movie called like Philadelphia, which is about a gay man with AIDS who ends up dying in the end. And that was like, someone won an Academy Award for that. Like it's, I think it was Tom Hanks, uh, and that was like the nineties, and that was like the epitome of like, that was what people knew. And then we had things like Brokeback Mountain, which is also just not great, you know? Yeah. Um, but, but was there anything I guess from our, you know, childhood, our younger years that felt hopeful that like, like leading up to where we are currently? Speaker 3 00:12:39 I feel like, well, it depends on hopeful because there was a lot of stuff that I don't think was hopeful that I made hopeful. Speaker 1 00:12:46 Okay. I love that. Speaker 3 00:12:48 Like, because I mean, I have always, I grew up on fan fiction. I've always read fan fiction. And so if something was upsetting, if the gay people died at the end, if I watched Buffy and her girlfriend died, I would just open, I would search it up online and be like, somebody wrote this where it didn't happen like that <laugh> and I, that would be my escape. So I wouldn't make it better representation for me. <laugh>, Speaker 1 00:13:14 I love that because the idea is that there was our community out there that was attempting to make it like rectify the problems, you know? Um, one of the tropes that we run into all the time and the show that's coming to mind is, oh, it was on sci-fi, but it's, you know, the lesbian always gets shot or dies, you know, like, um, why known Earth? And like, you know, when you think about things like that, and that was always the running thing, but there were tons of people who went out and they wrote stories that filled in those gaps or changed the story because they needed the representation or they needed the happy ending that we weren't getting. Speaker 2 00:13:49 Yeah. Speaking of the Kill Your Gaze trope, I guess I'd like to change my answer from how I met your mother to Pretty Little Liars because you just, oh, <laugh> made me remember that Pretty Little Liars had like the most L G B T characters on television, I think at the time. And it also holds the record for killing the most L G B T characters. Um, or at least it did back in like 2018. But yeah, I watched, like, I was watching a lot of like, uh, of Pretty Little Liars like, you know, eighth grade, ninth grade, mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and that show definitely had a lot of queer representation, I think with varying degrees of success. Speaker 1 00:14:26 What part Ude do you think was like, I guess which characteristics out as being like successful to you? I mean, I have one in mind who I think it is, but I don't wanna know who you think it is. Speaker 2 00:14:35 It's, it's been a while, like that, that's why, that's why it took me so long to think of Pretty Little Liars. Um, it's, but I don't know. Like I, yeah, I, I think Emily was good representation and then I'd say Allison was bad representation. Speaker 1 00:14:48 Yes. Yeah. A hundred percent. Speaker 2 00:14:50 Yeah. Allison just like, I, I mean, I honestly just feel like she used her sexuality to manipulate everyone around her, so it felt very disingenuous than when she got with Emily. Like, I like sure it was cute having them together or whatever, but just the way it all happened felt very icky. But I don't think that, you know, you really felt like that at other times with Emily and then even with characters like Maya, who everyone is still upset about being killed off. Speaker 1 00:15:17 Um, but she shouldn't have been killed off. Speaker 2 00:15:20 She shouldn't have been. Absolutely. Speaker 1 00:15:22 That was so sad. That was such a sad voice. Sday think, uh, but no, I think you're right. That one used a lot of stereotypes and sometimes it did well, and sometimes it did not. And you're right, Emily is a fine example of like how to do it right. Speaker 3 00:15:37 I don't remember a whole lot from that show. But didn't they have, wasn't the plot twist at the end that there was one of the A's and she was a trans girl? Speaker 2 00:15:46 Yes. The main a Speaker 3 00:15:48 The main A was a trans girl who was like one of their, uh, siblings who transitioned into a woman. And that was like the big plot twist. I think that that was the first time that I had seen a trans character in media in general. And I didn't even fully follow the show. I just saw like a clip of it and went, whoa. But I do remember being kind of like, hmm, I don't know if that's great, because it was like the biggest villain in the show happens to be a trans woman. And I was like, I don't know if that is the slay that you guys think it is for representation <laugh>. Speaker 2 00:16:18 Well, that's why Pretty Little Liars I think is so interesting because I think it did a lot of good for representation, but then you also have situations like that where, I mean, I think that is also the first time I saw a transgender character have any kind of significant role in any media. And, and yeah, to make her the Twist villain and then to make the fact that she's transgender. Like she's only transgender so you can have a twist. She's only transgender because they told us at the end of season five that Allison has a Secret Brother, but then you want it to be a character that's been on the show since season three. So you make her transgender. And so that kind of stuff doesn't feel great. And that also goes with how Pretty Little Liars like killed off all of its L G B T characters. Speaker 3 00:17:05 Yeah, Speaker 1 00:17:07 I totally, so I stopped watching season five and I missed this drama. This is whole Speaker 2 00:17:13 Thing. How could you, okay, listen, season five is when Season five is when they stopped caring about being coherent and they just started doing shit for fun. And that's when it got real good. Speaker 1 00:17:23 I got to the part where they got to New York and they pushed someone off of a building and I was like, why am I doing this anymore? And I stopped. But Speaker 2 00:17:28 No, that's the start of season five. There was so Speaker 1 00:17:30 Much stuff. Yeah. I stopped recording at that moment. Was it Spencer? Was it Spencer? That was the character that Speaker 2 00:17:39 No CC Drake was Allison's sister. That she was transgender. Was she? Yes. Um, and then she was immediately murdered in the next episode after being revealed as a, and then, um, oh my Speaker 1 00:17:51 God. Speaker 2 00:17:52 And then Alison's mom had a secret twin, and that secret twin had sex with Spencer's dad, and then she gave birth to Secret Twins. And so Spencer's twin was the final a, Speaker 1 00:18:05 I remember that part. So that's why I was like trying to connect the dots, like, is this connected? But that's also kind of like, oh God, making the trans character a villain. Like, like who approved that? Like <laugh>, Speaker 3 00:18:19 They always do it as it's some sort of twist, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> like you wouldn't see it coming. It's always like, this is a secretive, devious person that's hiding something for you. Or like, the transition is somehow either what makes them very tragic or what makes them like a bad person. I remember, and I didn't fully watch the show, it was just little clips, uh, of seeing, I think there was a character called Max from the L Word, um, who he was a trans man and transitioned and the whole thing, it was very turfy. It was just sort of like women biologically good men, biologically bad. You could just be a butch, but instead you are turning your back on womanhood and taking testosterone, which is making you this angry monster. It was not great. Um, and so it's just this inherent sort of thing of like, you can transition, but it's not a great thing and it'll either lead to your death or you being the villain. That's it. <laugh> Speaker 1 00:19:18 And that. And I think that like, that's very formative when you're growing up like we did. And I think that's one of the things why I'm excited for where we're at now. 'cause kids our age are gonna have hopefully better representation. Yeah. Um, because it always was like a plot point or a plot device if it was used. And I mean, I'm surprised, I'm like, I'm, I'm not surprised, but at the same time I'm shocked I made into like a show that was on a, b, c family, you know? Like that was even a plot point. Speaker 2 00:19:49 Well on, well, on the topic of like a transgender character being the villain and pretty Little Liars, I didn't think it was like a negative portrayal of transgender people. And but I mean, it, it was just the fact that the character being transgender, it was her tragic backstory. Yeah. You know? And so that's where I feel like it, it's just kind of flawed in, in the concept. Like I think it was executed well. I think it was like nuanced enough where you still felt bad for the character while, but like, you obviously see that that can't excuse like the years of torture. She's putting four high schoolers through mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and again, I feel like, you know, her tragic backstory is that she was locked up in like a psychiatric ward because she was transgender. And I feel like that tracks for the like time period and stuff that they were dealing with. Um, but yeah, I just, I I also see the argument of like, why, why put that negativity in there? Because it is just like the character was just transgender to be like a Gotcha. To add another plot twist. And it's like maybe representation shouldn't be used like just for cheap plot twists. Speaker 1 00:20:55 Absolutely. And I think that, you know, that also kind of leans to the idea of well as like queer bait, you know, we, we have lots of shows where we've been queer baited. The one that's coming to mind specifically is Once Upon a Time where had <laugh> Yes. Emma Swan and The Evil Queen. And that show was coded to be Speaker 3 00:21:16 They haunted me. Speaker 1 00:21:18 <laugh>. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, so what do you, do you remember watching shows and being like, this is a hundred percent queer baiting and, and thinking anything about it or film? It doesn't have to be Speaker 3 00:21:31 Oh my God. I mean, so many I've ever watched is kind of the thing <laugh> man, Speaker 1 00:21:38 Because I was thinking like, what is the one where she was a succubus, uh, lost Girl? Like that was also extremely queer baed, Speaker 3 00:21:45 Right? I'm trying to think of some, I mean, the one that comes to mind of the ones that my friends always bring up to me, they try to sort of fix at the end in the most insane sort of ending I've ever seen is Supernatural <laugh>, where they're Dean and Cass and they tease at them sort of having a thing for each other for seasons and seasons and seasons. And they talk about it in interviews and they use it as a marketing tactic. 'cause I think that's the most important thing in queer bathing mm-hmm. <affirmative> is when you use it as a marketing tactic to bring in a queer audience. Yeah. And then you don't commit to that. Right. And then at the end, they did follow through by having him confess his love for Dean and then go to mega super Hell Forever <laugh>. Speaker 1 00:22:27 Yes. This is a perfect example. And like, that kept queer viewers going, waiting, and then it dropped the ball. That one dropped a hardcore how, again, this was only a a what, two years ago? Not even that this show ended and this is the reality of the situation, Speaker 3 00:22:45 Right. I mean, and stuff like that sticks with you too. Like, when I'm watching these current shows that are explicitly queer in this wonderful way, I'll be watching them and I'll still feel like, but is it, but is it actually 'cause I feel like it is, but is it actually, and then like something needs to happen for it to be like, okay, I can rest easy. It is gay, <laugh> <laugh>. But I feel, I feel crazy sometimes watching these shows because it can be so clear to me and I still won't know because it has to be the most explicit thing in the universe, or else it may not happen. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Speaker 1 00:23:23 Absolutely. I think that's a great transition into like, let's talk about like the recent past, like Supernatural or the current, you know, we have lots of great shows. Actually, Izzy, I'm gonna start with you because you brought up a great point in our pre-show where you talked about First Kill and you brought up Killing Eve, which was not on our list, but it should have been because that was a recent show that had huge implications of possible queer baiting at first and then leading into being actually queer. And like, take your take, take it away. I'm, I just wanna, I wanna hand you the brains Speaker 3 00:23:56 Of this. I have things to say about Killing Eve because the first season, the first few seasons were fantastic, right? I mean mm-hmm. It's, I, I said it before we started recording it is Jody Comer and Sandra o in a psychosexual Battle of Wills. What more could you ask for? Right? It's this sort of, I I love queer media that is made by queer people for queer people in the sense where it gets to be kind of messy and weird. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> like, you don't have to expl, you never have to turn to the camera and be like, and it's okay that they are gay. Which, I mean, I think that there is a time and a place for media like that, and I think it's fantastic. But I also love ones where it's just like, these women are messy and they will kiss each other. Speaker 3 00:24:35 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, but yes, <laugh> watching that first season, I was like, I feel like this is queer, but am I crazy? Um, and then you get to the end and they have this amazing scene and you're like, oh, oh, they are, this is fantastic. She's like, I think about you all the time. They have this great thing and they don't even have to kiss. But I was still certain it was a queer show. And it continues like that and it's great. And there's all this subtle cl queerness packed throughout the show. It talks a little bit about sexual fluidity, um mm-hmm. <affirmative> Eve never like explicitly labels herself, but she sort of discovers her queerness throughout it. It's wonderful. And then you get to season four, and I don't know how a a lesbian wrote this season, but she did. Um, where it just throws out so much of the characterization out the window, first of all, like, just writing wise, it is worse than the seasons that predate it. Speaker 3 00:25:28 But then out of nowhere, out of the show that was allowed to be weird and queer in this wonderful way, it goes, actually she dies at the end, but it's, don't worry, it's, it's good because she killed people. So this is morally fine. Like it's trying to be a, she's the writer said in interview, she was like, don't worry Eve at the end, she's like in relief that this period of her time is over 'cause this lady died. And everyone's like, that's not what the show is about. The show is about this weird connection that they had and this queerness that they shared together. And you just totally ruined it. It felt like a betrayal of the entire series, which was felt so progressive and felt like such a huge step forward. And so it, that's part of the reason why I watch modern shows. I st even if it is queer, I still get nervous. Like, is it gonna be queer in a safe way? Do I still, is this something that we still get to celebrate or is it gonna just be like, taken away? Speaker 1 00:26:22 I totally agree with that. I remember watching that show and I actually did not watch it. And when it aired, I had recorded it. Um, and then I, me and my ex were gonna watch it and then like, middle of breakup, we didn't end up watching it, so I just like sat on the DVR for a little bit. And my one friend was just like, you have to watch the show. There's something different about this. And I said, okay. And I watched, I binged that for a season and I was like, I don't think think I've seen anything like this up to this point. Like there was nothing that felt so that it, the plot wasn't them being queer, but queer was a part of the plot, if that makes sense. Please. Yes, <laugh>. And I think that I was so, like, incredibly important and like, it felt like, I was like, okay, we're being seen a little bit. And then season four happened and I was like, nevermind, we're not being seen. There is no, there, there is no visibility for this at all. But, but uni this makes me think to you, 'cause you mentioned the Arrowverse kind of being like this first entry, you know, of like maybe positive or just like representation. What is sticking out to you about the Arrowverse and its representation of, of queerness? Speaker 2 00:27:24 Um, well, I'll, I'll, I'll amend the Arrowverse to being second now that I remembered that Pretty Little Liars existed. <laugh>, sorry. Speaker 1 00:27:30 Correct. <laugh>, Speaker 2 00:27:33 Sorry. Um, I think that, like Sarah Lance, I feel like she was done pretty well. Um, yes. Yeah. Like I don't really recall having any complaints with how like Sarah's sexuality was handled and she's the person that comes to mind the most. Um, honestly, I, I feel like I'm really struggling to remember the things that have happened in these TV shows. Um, Speaker 1 00:27:58 No, I think you're right though. Like Sarah Lance is fantastic, especially in Legends of tomorrow when she kind of had to like got out of the shadow of Arrow. Oh yeah. And she could just be queer. Um, and what was her wife's name? I can't think of, um, Speaker 2 00:28:13 Does she, I can't agree that that that girl Ava. Speaker 1 00:28:16 Ava, yes. She ends up marrying, Speaker 2 00:28:18 I, I never fin Yeah. I never finished listening tomorrow. Speaker 1 00:28:21 But another great one is actually Supergirl, um, and not Supergirl herself. Oh yeah. But we have Alex, her sister, and we have Dreamer, which was like really cool to see a trans individual as a superhero, and one that actually made a bigger transition from the TV show to comics and comics, the TV show, like after being in the show, they started having, you know, giving her her own comic run. And I believe the actress was actually involved in it. And I, I'm gonna ask her that because I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure she was involved with actually making the comic and it was received really well. And that was just like such a normal, I don't even think that they mentioned that she was quote unquote trans. I just knew it because I I, behind the scenes following things and not, not for a while, I should say they mentioned it, but like, it, it was not like off the Speaker 2 00:29:09 Bat. That's what I wanted to point out. I did hear, you know, that there was a trans superhero appearing in Supergirl, and I believe Dreamer is the first transgender superhero on mm-hmm. <affirmative> any kind of screen. Right. And, um, I think so, Speaker 2 00:29:23 Yeah. And so I did wonder if that was gonna be acknowledged in the show, but I think it took, like, it took at least one season, maybe like a season and a half or two seasons. And then when it was brought up, I thought it was brought up in like a very natural way. Um, because the other thing when we're talking about queer representation is like homophobia, transphobia. Um, that's something that I always like realized with Schitt's Creek is that, uh, like Dan Levy said, like there would never be homophobia depicted on Schitt's Creek because he just wanted it to be a safe space. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, which I completely understand, and I do like that a lot. But I think pretty much mo most other, like queer, most other shows or movies with queer representation, I think always like touch on homophobia at least a little bit. Speaker 2 00:30:14 And in Dreamer's case, she was first brought up as being transgender because it turns out that her sister didn't actually like, see her as a woman, um mm-hmm. <affirmative> because, 'cause the, it, it was an episode where it was like the first woman in their family gets like the dreaming powers or whatever, like the eldest, the eldest daughter gets the dreaming powers. And her sister was older than her, and her sister had always supported her transition, but she didn't get the dreaming powers. Dreamer got the powers and then that, and then it came out that like her sister thought she wasn't a real woman and she didn't deserve them because she transitioned. And so I thought that that was a very interesting way to, to touch on Dreamer being transgender for the first time. And I think it was done very well because in that episode I was like, oh, like is this really where we're going? And it was, and I feel like that is accurate to real life where you could have someone that supports you, but then it turns out that they don't actually. Speaker 1 00:31:16 And you know what's interesting too is I'm pretty sure that they had the actress involved in like, that storyline specifically, and like making sure it was authentic for like, her experiences or just like, like her perspective was input on this. And I think that was really good too, because there's not always a great behind the scenes representation too, you know, where people just write these stories. And it could be a straight person writing this, it could be a cisgender person writing this, and they don't always understand the, the experiences that we bring to this table. Um, did you see, did you watch Supergirl at all and see any of this? Speaker 3 00:31:52 I did. Well I did that sort of thing where I absorbed it through osmosis, through my Tumblr feet. <laugh>. Yes. And I, I, I always wanted to get into it and I just never found the time, but it seemed very fun. Um, but I just wanted, I did wanna say something about, um, how you talked about how some sh queer shows talk about homophobia and some don't, because I think that that is something important to touch on esp, especially if it is a queer person making that decision or not. Like you mentioned like a trans actress maybe being involved in the storyline and figuring out how to depict that, that versus Dan Levy, who is a queer person deciding not to have that in there and have it be sort of a safe space. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And it makes me think a lot about how, I mean, coming from this earlier period we talked about with all it was representation, was it good representation? Speaker 3 00:32:36 Who's to say, um, into this time where we now have much more mainstream queer content being made, right? I mean, queer content has always been being made. It's just been more indie, more low key or like housewives writing fan fiction and sending it to each other mm-hmm. In the sixties for Star Trek. Yes. That right. Um, but now that we have this mainstream stuff that's being promoted, it feels very much like we're trying to fill in this gap, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> cis people have had so much cinema for them going for so long that they have all sorts of stuff that they wanna see. And we are currently kind of running to catch up with that, which is why I feel like almost every single show that I see somebody goes, this is great, but I kind of wish we had a show like this instead. Speaker 3 00:33:20 Right? Like, heart Stopper is great, but I wish we had something less wholesome and more adult, or, this, this adult show was great, but I wish we had something more wholesome, like Heart Stopper. I wish we had something that did address homophobia or something that didn't. Right. And it just feels like mm-hmm. <affirmative>, we're just sort of racing to fill up this void of, of content that we all want. And so what I think that all, all of it is important because it's either like an escape or it's a, um, it, it hits home and it's an accurate depiction. I just think that's something really interesting to look at the way that we are just trying to catch up in terms of what we all wanna see. Speaker 1 00:33:58 You know, what's interesting about that? You're a hundred percent correct. And there was actually a line in Heart Stoppers, which we'll talk a little bit more as we go down the list, but there's a line in Heart Stoppers where, uh, in season two, two of the teachers are talking and the one teacher's just like, well, we've all kind of been there, you know, we've all went and made out with the boy down the street, you know? And the one guy said, well, when you don't come out in terms of your sexuality until the mid twenties, you tend to miss out on all those beautiful gay teen experiences. And I remember, and I told you both in the group chat, I was like watching it and I was sad. I was like, why am I sad? And like, that was the key component there was I was sad because I, we didn't have this. And now I'm like, I want more of it and I want it quickly. I like, I don't wanna wait. And I don't know how many queer books I've bought on Amazon too much for my credit card, just 'cause I need to fill that my own personal void and I need people to fill that void for me. And like, I need that content. So I think that like you're, you're, you're on the spot here. It's just there is a gigantic void that needs to be filled. Speaker 1 00:34:56 Absolutely. We're and we're trying to do that. And, you know, we've had Oh, Speaker 3 00:35:01 Oh, I, I was just gonna say, I also think it's great that now we don't have to just take anything we can choose based off a personal taste too. Like there's enough shows that if I watch a show that is queer, but I just don't like it for writing reasons or something, I don't have to watch it. There's other things, Speaker 1 00:35:15 Which brings me to the, one of the things on our list is this movie that came out last year called Bros. And I was like, I'm gonna watch this for this podcast. And I don't know if either one of you watched it. And I got through 20 minutes and I said, no, this is not for me. Like this is, this is for somebody else, but this is not for me. Um, it was not great. Speaker 3 00:35:33 I didn't watch it for the sober, it was promoted like crazy on my Twitter. Yeah. I liked one single ad of it and it kept, the account kept adding me being like, do you wanna see Bros? I don't wanna see Speaker 1 00:35:44 Bros <laugh>. Speaker 3 00:35:46 And part of it was because I heard from a bunch of queer people being like, I watched it and it didn't feel like it was for me. It felt like I, I heard a bunch of people say that it felt like a movie for straight people about gay people. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And Speaker 2 00:35:57 I feel like that I also heard that Speaker 3 00:35:59 A big important distinction, like stuff that's supposed to explain gay people to an audience versus gay people are in this, you know? Right. Speaker 1 00:36:09 You know, in the first 20 minutes, I'll just say this, there was the main character hooked up with two, I think it was three people off a grinder and explained to straight people what Grindr was. And then it explained, you know, like, gays are loud and they are messy and they get involved and they don't have, they have attachment issues. And, and I was just like, and by the time I was like, wow, man, 20 minutes. We've had every single stereotype. I'm embarrassed to watch this with my family. Like, we're turning this off. And so like, I think like, like you said, we can pick and choose. 'cause while that isn't good, we have things like Love Simon. I liked that one. There's the spinoff Love Victor. I haven't seen it, but there are shows that have these representations that are, that you can pick depending on your preference, because we don't have to just be starving for that one film that comes out every 20 years. Speaker 3 00:36:56 Right. Speaker 1 00:36:59 I, what is, I'd say, what is a current maybe show or recent show that we found ourselves obsessed with because it felt maybe like it hit a certain, uh, uh, a heart cord, you know, or it, it just felt like we were finally seen. Um, and I'm actually gonna start this one because Red White and Royal Blue did this for me, but also the Heart Stoppers and for two different reasons, um, for Red White and Royal Blue when the trailer came out and I was like, I'm gonna read this book. It's been out for a while. And I read the book and I was like, okay, it's a, it's a little messy, but I'm, I'm here for it. I'm gonna see the movie and when I gotta see the movie early, thanks to, uh, uh, through a screener, I was obsessed. And the thing that I was obsessed about was that I finally felt like I was watching a movie where I was being represented. Speaker 1 00:37:43 I grew up in a family where we watched Hallmark movies and every single woman is between a straight man and a straight woman, and they go to a hometown. And this one was just about, this was such a real story and it was so vibrant. But also, you know, while it was exaggerated, 'cause they're the president's son and you know, the, the prince of, uh, the uk you know, of England, they were real people and they had real stories and had real feelings. And I was just like, oh, I was seen and I was obsessed. I did not stop talking about the film for weeks until I watched Heart Stoppers and then I stopped talking about it. But Uday, what is a show that maybe you or film that you just are currently obsessed with that has queer representation or that like, you're watching it because of that? Speaker 2 00:38:25 Um, I quite liked Red White and Royal Blue as well. Uh, I never do this, but unfortunately I did not read the book before watching the movie. And I regret that decision more and more every day of, of my life. I'll never be making that mistake again. Um, yeah. But I, I did like the movie. I've seen it three times. Um, I saw it like, I watched it twice opening weekend. And I feel like the reason why I like it so much, uh, like I, I definitely have, you know, little gripes with the movie. I think it could have been a little bit better. I think one of the two people can't act for shit. Um, but I do think that it was just really nice seeing adults be gay because Love Simon is great, love Victor was decent the first season that I saw of it, but personally, I have no interest whatsoever. Speaker 2 00:39:08 And watching Heart Stop her because I'm just tired of like teeny bopper gay, like high schoolers. And I feel like if I was still in high school, I'd really be loving Heart Stopper. But now that I'm not in high school and I've seen Love Simon and love Victor, I'm kind of fine without it. Um, and I really don't feel any need to watch it. And that kind of goes, um, to that comment about, you know, we can pick and choose what we wanna watch because now there is more than just one thing. 'cause yeah, if Heart Stopper was the only L G B T content that had released since Love Simon, um, maybe I I probably would be watching it. But yeah, I feel like there is choice and so I don't, so I feel comfortable skipping it, Speaker 1 00:39:51 You know, I think it's interesting that you, well, first off, I have to ask you who does, who, who do you feel can't act or you just, you could tell me later? 'cause like I need to know. 'cause Speaker 2 00:39:59 I'm like, like, like, let's be honest. One, one of them lines, one of them delivered lines like they were reading off a script and as Twitter said, one of them acted like he was in Pride and Prejudice <laugh>. Speaker 1 00:40:09 Okay. Speaker 2 00:40:09 So yeah. Speaker 1 00:40:09 Think I know where we stand. That's fine. Yeah. Um, what's interesting about Heart Stoppers is that while it felt juvenile when I first started watching it, it did not feel that way. As soon as I got into like episode three, it no longer felt like there were high schoolers. Like, even though there are high schoolers, it felt like just that like young love that like we all craved to be in high school. And it made me just have like a heartache. It did not make me feel like I was watching a teenage show, which I think was, is really good for the writing that they've done. Whoever the writing team is behind it nailed what it was like to be a teenager and be in love. And that in and of itself, I'm not, again, you can pick and choose. I'm never gonna force you to watch it. I just connected with that part. Speaker 2 00:40:51 Yeah. I, I understand what you're saying, but also that is kind of why I'm also not interested in watching it, because like, that's fine if it's gonna make me depressed about the fact that I didn't have a young love like that in high school. It's like I already have Love Simon and love Victor, which are like not as intense. I think, I think Heart Stopper is much more like First Love, whereas Love Simon and Love Victor are more like discovering your sexuality and like dating someone for the first time. Um, but it's like, yeah, I just, I'm not really interested in watching Heart Stopper because I have other like gay high school content and, and again, like now that I'm an adult, I'm like, let's, let's move forward instead of looking back. Speaker 3 00:41:32 I, I definitely understand you on the also, sometimes to watch content, it can be kind of sad about like, oh, this is something maybe I missed out on. And so I don't wanna watch it <laugh>. Um, but I also do get you on, um, I love like little high school queer romances. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. I also really like adult stuff, um, because, you know, I can relate to it slightly more. Um, and I also feel like it is slightly more, it is often slightly less about being queer and more about being vampires, um, <laugh> or something like that where it's like, um, I mean, a show that I've been thinking about a lot, I mean, I've been thinking about a lot of vampire shows lately. Okay. We've got what we do in The Shadows. We got interviews for the Vampire. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you mentioned First Kill, right. Um, the gays owned vampires at this point. Um, and Speaker 1 00:42:21 That's, we have, we have property. Speaker 3 00:42:22 Exactly. And those are all really weird shows, which I personally really like. I like weird gothic romances or like a little comedy about a bunch of vampires who are all friends and maybe dating and maybe have sex, sometimes living in a giant mansion together and their hijinks. All of that is great for me. Um mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I honestly, I I I love content that is about being queer and I think that's so important, but I also love it when it's just sort of around, it just sort of exists. Yes. Um, like how it be with the Vampire. They're all queer and they've been in, uh, season five, they bring it up a little bit more and they have this really funny little pride section where one of the characters is just holding a sign that says Gay Man on it <laugh> this Little Pride parade, which is great. Um, but it's mostly it exists and they're all queer and there are jokes, but the butt of the joke is never like their identities. It, it manages to do gay jokes in a way where the joke is not at their expense, which I love. Um, Speaker 1 00:43:27 I do love that about what we do in the Shadows. 'cause it's just like, it's like there and it's like, just like part of the atmosphere, but you're never just like, feel like you're being, like being over the head by like, the fact that they're all just different forms of being queer, you know? Speaker 3 00:43:39 Yeah. I think that there's something really important about something like Heart Stopper where he does say multiple times I am bisexual. Because that's the thing people do where it's, if you're a guy and you just start dating another guy, people are like, so you're gay. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and they don't make any distinction. And so stuff like that is definitely important. But I also like stuff where it's just, it can just be around. Um, one of the things that I like about one of the shows that's on our list, uh, good Omens, which has season two, which I am continually screaming about, is that nobody ever, like, nobody ever like stops and goes, this is exactly what I am. There is no homophobia really in this show. It's just is around. Um, Neil Gaiman spoke on Twitter about how the big plot, one of the big plot lines in season two is that they're trying to sort of get these two women together and then it sort of also gets them together. Right. But one of the women has this partner named Lindsay who was never gendered because Neil Gayman was just like, it's just not important whether she was dating a man or a woman or a non-binary person, she's gonna date this other woman eventually. But that's just sort of, that can just be around. I like that. That was good for me. <laugh>, Speaker 1 00:44:46 You know, I did not watch Good Oman's the first season when it came out. Um, I had just missed it. There was like during the period of time where there was just like so much content coming out. Um, but when season two was coming out, you know, Lizzie needed someone to cover it. So I was like, yeah, I'll watch it. I can watch the first season. And so I watched it with my mom and we were watching the first season. I was like, there is definitely some queerness going on, but they're like not talking about it, which is like, is great. And also just like, am I, am I being queer Baed and stuff? And then season two happened and I wish I could find the message. It was, it, it was in a message with, with Lizzie and I'm just like screaming in caps saying, oh my God, they did it. Yeah. And it Speaker 3 00:45:21 Was great, Speaker 1 00:45:22 But it wasn't a big deal either. It was just they were in love. Speaker 3 00:45:27 And that's one of the reasons I religiously followed Neil Gaiman's Tumblr, where he talks about this. And that's one of the reasons why he had them kiss is because he talks about how in season one he wrote it as a love story. And the original book he, uh, he wrote with Terry pr it wasn't intended that way, but when he made it into a TV show, he was like, I wanna explore this. I wanna make this a plot line. Let's have these two characters. Another cool thing is that since they're like an angel and a demon, he's like, they're not actually men, they're just man shaped. Right. Right. So they're kind of just, they're like an angel and a demon. That's their gender. Right. So it's a queer relationship, but he's part of the reason why people are like, are we being queer? Baited is, 'cause they were like, they're gay. Speaker 3 00:46:04 Right. And he was like, I don't know if I would call it gay. And what he meant is that it's just queer. But a lot of people were like, what do you mean by that male Neil Gaman? <laugh>? What do you mean <laugh>? Um, but that's part of the reason why he had like this explosive kiss moment at the end is 'cause he was like, nobody could deny that that happened. Right. He said that to him, the proof that they loved each other was like these dinners that they have and that they say that they trust each other and et cetera, et cetera. But for a person watching that, especially straight people watching that, they don't always pick up on it. I don't know how good straight people are with media literacy sometimes because I'll watch stuff and all. That's fair. Well, I mean, I just mean with stuff like this, obviously, 'cause I watched one and like You, I was like, this is a love story. This is so clearly a love story. And then I would watch it with other people. They'd be like, what good friends? And I'm like, okay, <laugh>. Speaker 1 00:46:54 Absolutely. You know, I think it's interesting too when we, we have a show on our list that's actually, we can look back at the past, compare not just one way, but two. And this is Interview with the Vampire, where we had the, the nineties film. We had the book. And I remember, I have a very formative memory from my sister who's listening who writes for us. But like, I remember being like seven and she was watching on television and I was terrified and intrigued, like, and I didn't know why I was so terrified and intrigued. And then, but again, in that film, it's not like, it's not so like opaque, you know? Like it's, it's, it's, there's hints of it. But 'cause it's the nineties and it's Brad Pitt and Tom Cruise and like, they, they're just, they're just really good friends. They lived together forever. And then I read the book and it's a little more there, but it's still like, there's just these hints or like the, the flowery language describes it, but it's not ever like explicit. And then we got this new show and they're like, nah, they're gay. Like, Speaker 3 00:47:47 Yeah, no, they have floating vampire sex in the show. Speaker 1 00:47:52 Yeah. Speaker 3 00:47:52 Pretty gay <laugh>. Speaker 1 00:47:55 You need to watch it. Don't come that. Speaker 3 00:47:56 Oh yeah. Um, I'll say one thing about the show that I think is really interesting is, and I'm actually kind of glad that they did this. Um, one good thing moving forward is that we're also getting a lot of queer content with people of color instead of just two white people who fall in love mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right. Which is fantastic. Um, but in the original right, one of the people is a slave owner. Um, and then in order to sort of explore a different angle, they're like, actually we're gonna make him black and we're gonna explore that. And so there is an aspect of their relationship where it's slightly less romantic than it would be actually in the books, because in the later books is, it does become explicitly romantic. In the first book, it's like mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, right. But then it gets more, right. Speaker 3 00:48:36 Um, where is os also about this very kind of toxic and it kind of turns into an abusive relationship between these, uh, people. Right? But I also kind of, and that is part of it, right? That one of them thinks that he understands all the guys' experiences and it's like, no, you are a white Frenchman. You don't know anything. Um, but something that I think is really interesting about that is that if that show came out a little bit ago, I'd be like, I don't know if this is good queer representation necessarily because it's queer rep. It's a queer relationship, but it's deeply unhealthy. But now I feel like we're in a climate where we actually can explore really unhealthy queer relationships in a way that's just interesting. Um, in a way that can be really, I mean, it's a good show. It's a great show and I love it. Speaker 3 00:49:22 Um, and I don't feel like it's turning to the camera and being like, queer relationships bad. It's about this dark gothic romance, right? Mm-hmm. Which is awesome because I feel like a lot of times straight people get to have really nuanced portrayals of unhealthy relationships and it, it, it's obviously not the same because it's not straight. Relationships are bad. It's just this one particular relationship is complicated. Right? Right. This is a very complicated relationship and it's one of those ones where I watch it and I let go, yay. We're not arguing gay people bad. It's just about a complicated relationship. Speaker 1 00:49:57 A hundred percent Uday, I would say. Out of all the list of shows we have in here, if you have one that you're thinking about watching, it should be this one. If you liked, uh, gray Worm in, uh, game of Thrones. He is 10 times better in the show. He's so good. He's he's so good. You think I watched Game of Thrones? Speaker 3 00:50:15 Fair enough. Speaker 1 00:50:16 That's fair. Speaker 3 00:50:17 Fair enough. But he's, that's fair. Oh my God, he's so good in this. It's, I'm kind of in love with him. It's fantastic. Um, <laugh> and Speaker 1 00:50:25 I keep seeing this one gif Speaker 2 00:50:26 On Twitter from Interview with the Vampire that makes me wanna watch it. Speaker 3 00:50:31 I keep seeing GIF of them kissing or something with the caption. What kind of interview is this? Yeah, that's the one <laugh>. Speaker 1 00:50:38 Um, it is by far one of the best shows that is on television right now. Um, hands down, Speaker 3 00:50:45 See it, I think it's gonna be streaming on I think H B O for like a month. Yes. Starting in October. Yes. Because it's on AMC Plus right now, which is great, but nobody has a m c plus. What is that? Everyone I know who hasn't bought it specifically to watch this show. So <laugh>, Speaker 1 00:50:59 I have a c Yeah, I Then you can borrow it. Uday. I have a AMC Plus, but don't tell anybody <laugh>. Um, oh my God. I love, I had to get it for the show. I had to get it for the Mayfair Witches too. But that's a different same world, different, you know, series. Um, I guess then, you know, going, going back to Red White and Royal Blue, 'cause this is the one that we were kind of stemmed from, um, Uday, you know, what did you, you know, so we thought it was pretty good. One of the actors you liked more than the other, but like, did you see that there was like any tropes or any like, holes with this? Or like, how did you feel about the representation? Did you feel seen? Did you not, like what, how was this film for you? Speaker 2 00:51:36 I think there were tropes, but not like gay tropes. I think there were just rom-com tropes. Yes. But I think that they were still executed well. I mean, obviously you have like the thing where they break up at the end of the second act and then they need to have the dramatic like, reunion. But I thought that that was done pretty well. I'll say like, the one thing that I thought was a little bit odd was like the tone of the movie. I feel like it really oscillated between like Disney Channel. Like I, I think the beginning was extremely Disney Channel and not in a good way. Um, and then I think like it got a lot better, like 10 minutes in. Um, but I do think like it was rated r I feel like I kind of feel like it should have picked a lane. Speaker 2 00:52:19 I feel like it didn't do. I was gonna say, I, I was gonna say that I don't think it did enough with the R rating, but I'll disagree with that because I did think that, like, I, I thought that like, I mean, there, there was a lot of sex in the movie, right? And what really struck me about Red White and Royal Blue was again, just like the scenes in that movie versus even just like straight romcoms. Like when Alex and Henry have sex for the first time, like, you don't even see sex scenes like that in straight romcoms. It's always just like, oh, someone's gonna take off a shirt and then we're gonna fade to black and then they'll wake up in bed together. Right? And so I appreciated that Red white and Royal Blue, like really went there with that aspect because again, that did make it feel a lot more adult than stuff like Love Simon and love Victor. Although I haven't seen the last two seasons of Love Victor, maybe against <laugh> really adult in them. Um, but yeah, so I just, I I I appreciated that it went there. Um, but yeah, I just, I kind of wished it had been like a little bit more like consistent with its tone throughout. Listen, Speaker 1 00:53:25 Listen, I have nothing bad to say about this film. You'll never catch me talking bad about these people or the, this film. I loved this film so much, honestly. But there was some interesting things that I think that it did. And one of them was, it made some changes obviously. 'cause in the book there's a queen and they made it a kink. But I loved this because Steven Fry is a well-known gay man, and he actually did not come out until he was much older. And so the fact that they changed it to have him in there, and he's also the voice of the principal and heart stopper, which I think is a really cool connection of having some really great representation in there. Um, but again, red Runway Blue did a really good job of just having some really real world situations. You know, people grow up in worlds where their parents aren't supportive or they don't wanna see them mm-hmm. <affirmative> or, you know, and this is just amplified by the fact that we're running countries. Um, and there's not a goddamn thing that Prince Henry can ever do wrong. I've decided. So not Speaker 3 00:54:16 A single thing that this man can ever do wrong. I'm so excited to see him in that actor in Bottoms tomorrow, because I'm sure it's gonna be a total 180. But it was great. He killed Speaker 2 00:54:25 That. Oh yeah. Yeah. I'm excited for that. Speaker 1 00:54:27 Um, I was, I'm literally obsessed, obsessed with Nicholas Ine that I am now gonna watch everything he's ever been in, because obviously this man is okay. My favorite man in the entire world. Speaker 2 00:54:39 Well, I'm also obsessed with him, but I cannot watch everything he's ever been in because he has Purple Hearts and Cinderella on that list. And I saw a clip of him in ci. Okay. He was Speaker 1 00:54:47 In Cinderella. Speaker 2 00:54:48 I'm No, no. I saw a clip of him singing some song in Cinderella. I did not turn the sound on because I was worried for my ears. Um, not because of his singing, because of like whatever the lyrics were gonna be <laugh>. Um, but yeah, I will, I'll watch everything he does going forward, but we'll just chalk up two of those 20, 22 movies to a mistake and ignore them. <laugh>, Speaker 3 00:55:09 You probably did act that movie like it was Pride and Prejudice, though. I was No, he, I was captivated. Yeah. Speaker 2 00:55:15 No, no. Every time I rewatch Fred White and Royal Blue, I get like, I'm, I'm like, I'm, I'm happier with like, what, with what Nicholas Galaxy did with Prince Henry. And then I'm more upset at what the other one did with Alex. Fair Speaker 1 00:55:30 Enough. I will say this. And I do, I thought they had insane chemistry. Do you think that they, Lisa worked well together? They had Speaker 2 00:55:37 Really good stuff. Oh, yes. Yeah. They had really good chemistry. I just feel like I, I don't, I feel like the writing on Alex wasn't great, especially compared to the book. 'cause now that I'm reading the book, he has a, an entirely different home life. I feel like he has an entirely different personality. I feel like in the book, he's this really fun mix of like manic and cringe and cute. And in the movie I feel like cringe overpowers everything else. Um, which is fine. But I just, I like book Alex like way more than movie Alex. And I don't think it's the actor's fault. I think that the writing like screwed him over a little bit on it. I think Speaker 3 00:56:11 That that is just an adaptational sort of thing, because this is one thing I will say about I love the movie. Um, the one thing I will say about the movie as, as somebody who read the book in like, and the book itself was a queer coming of an age experience to read, right? Like, I was kind of upset one day. So my college roommate handed me like her tattered copy that had gone through every single sad <laugh> person she'd ever met, right? And so I read it and I was like, whoa, love is real. And it was great. Um, <laugh> love that. And I think that, um, part of it is just when you have such a beloved book by so many people, you wanna keep as much in there as you can and really honor a lot of it while o also, you know, the pace of a movie. Speaker 3 00:56:53 So it's two hours, but I do feel like parts of it go a little snappy. And I think that's just part of it is just a book adaptation thing. And so I can forgive it that because I love the movie and I love the book, but Yeah. Some of the changes you mentioned Alex's home life, it's stuff like they're, is it, aren't his parents divorced in the book? They're movie. This is, I was fascinated by that choice because I kind of understand making the queen into a king or something like that to be like, this is a different royal family than the one that we have. But also what, why Speaker 2 00:57:23 Is this? Yeah, I, I feel like there were, um, I, again, I'm not done with the book. I'm about halfway through, but I feel like there were too many changes to Alex. And I feel like that's a common feeling with book to movie adaptations as you can feel like there are too many changes. But I mean, I knew they cut his sister out of the movie and I was like, okay. Like even that might've been like fine, just like condensing her role into like, the friend's role. Um, but yeah, then I got to like, his parents were divorced and how like he and his sisters like, like differing opinions on politics and everything. And I just, I feel like the movie stripped away a lot of Alex's nuance, but I feel like it still kept all of Henry's. And so I feel like that's also why I like Henry more in the movie. But I'm kind of liking Alex more in the book. Speaker 3 00:58:10 I feel like part of that though is because they wanted to focus. If when you're stripping this down, you focus on the love story of it, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. Um, that those are the moments you really heavily hit on. Which, I mean, first of all, how great is it that there is a movie that was promoted this much that is focuses on a gay love story? I mean, I would open Amazon Prime and every single time it would be at the top. That in itself is fantastic. But I do think that part of it is that when you do something like that, inherently what ends up happening, I mean the, the scene when they're on like the little deck thing together and Alex is talking, he's like, we can hold hands through Austen when you don't have some of that character development for him. You just go, this is really tone deaf of you, dude. You're digging Speaker 2 00:58:51 Well, yeah. Like of Speaker 3 00:58:52 England. Yeah. Speaker 2 00:58:53 For example, like yeah, that line. I was like, didn't Speaker 3 00:58:55 Have to worry about that a little bit. Speaker 2 00:58:57 Yeah. I was like, I was, are you fucking stupid? I'm sorry <laugh>. Um, but I'm like, you are the son of the American president. Like, you know that the Prince of England can't just stroll down the street. Right? Like, you should know that on paper before you even started dating him. But like, but also Speaker 3 00:59:12 The portrayal during that scene and Henry's facial expression, that Speaker 2 00:59:17 Was, that's pride and prejudice. Speaker 3 00:59:20 But speaking of like queer experiences, I feel like that inherent sense of like sadness that you don't get to have something that maybe somebody else can like assume that you have, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but just this realization of there's this thing I could have and I can't actually have it because it's not safe for me, or I wouldn't be supportive or X, y, z. And just like the way that he played that scene really got to me personally because I was like, that just reads so true. Speaker 1 00:59:47 Mm-hmm. <affirmative> that scene. And then also the scene where he says about like, both politics and the, the kingdom are prison and I will not trade one for an for God. It's just like, yeah, Speaker 1 00:59:58 That hurts. It hurts. But it's so true. Like we've all been in a place where we can't have what we want in a way. And that hurts. I will say that I think that part of this too, and I think that there's actually, I, I read somewhere that part of this was because it was a book that's sold from Alex's point of view. So most of the world revolves around him. Yeah. So most of that is cut because you don't have room for that. When you look at the essence of the fact that we're looking at the romance and like the, the story of the two of them, um, and that they felt that the stepdad was actually redundant. He didn't do anything in the book, which he doesn't really, and so it made just as more sense to have the parents together. Do I dis agree with that? No. 'cause I think that there was a lot of a betrayal of, uh, he is, comes from a broken family in a way who that has been healed over. He has seen that there is a bad part. He has seen that you can find love again. He is more optimistic in that and that leads to him being optimistic about him and Henry. And I don't think you get that in the film because you missed that part. Speaker 3 01:00:56 Yeah. I also think that, I mean, part of the inherent ness of Red White and Royal Blue as a, as a book, and I think what it's doing right now is it's kind of this great escapism for a lot of queer people where it has homophobia. Absolutely. But they get to run off to each with each other. And everyone, like the general public is really supportive. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I mean, they did what the Prince now did before The Prince now did it where yes, they ran off and they abdicated and they have their love and it's fantastic. And, but also just stuff like politically like politically to be queer right now, it's kind of scary. Um, yeah. In America, obviously we're talking about this from an American western point of view. Uh, I mean, like, I'm part Lebanese where Barbie was just banned for promoting the homosexual agenda, which try to connect those dots on your own time. Speaker 3 01:01:45 But, um, right. But at, at the very least in America right now, the, the idea that, especially in the book, like a single mother with biracial children co Democrat could win instead of Trump Right. At that time. Yes. And that that could then spark off into this like beautiful queer love story that's escapist, right? Mm-hmm. That's wonderful. That is a hopeful look to something that could have been. Um, and I feel like that that is something that is sil in the movie, right? In this kind of obvious, there's the realism of it, right? The idea of realistically speaking, if you're a public figure, you can't be doing this. Um, right. And it's, if you, you are in an unsupportive family, they will not support you. And all of that rings very true. But then there's also the idea of they still get to keep a lot of what they have, right? Alex's mom gets reelected, all that sort of thing. Um, and I think that's important too, as like a touchstone to both what we actually experience as queer people and then osdi. But this is what it could be. You know, it's this nice little hopeful light in the world, and I love that, Speaker 1 01:02:57 You know, there's actually a collector's edition of the book and it has an additional chapter told from him point of view, do you mm-hmm. <affirmative> and it's, uh, five years in the future. And it kind of explains how, where they go and where they're coming. And I remember it's so extremely hopeful and you actually get to see from his eyes that where he wasn't, I'm not gonna get into it, but like, there's, like, he's got, he's got hope finally. And so like, I think like it's the, like it's the, like what you just said, the whole film is so in the, in the movie is so, hope not film and book is very hopeful and it is a hundred percent escapism. I remember I could not wait to pick up this book I was reading between clients. I was sometimes late to clients because I gotta finish this chapter. Speaker 1 01:03:36 Like, um, you feel so connected to these characters because you don't have to, you don't have to deal with, you know, some of the harsher realities of that. Yeah. Um, and I really hope that we start to see a pattern of this as we go forward. You know, um, continuing to have just great or semi great films in movies and books that are just going to represent, um, being queer and what in the, the experiences of what that is. What would you, I guess, is there anything that like you are looking for from future representation? Or there's like, is there like a story that you're still waiting to see that has not been done yet? And maybe that's a very ambiguous question. Um, I'm just wondering what are we hoping to see from queer representation in film and video? And we'll start with, uh, with you, Izzy. Speaker 3 01:04:28 Oh, and Me. Um, I think that, I mean, one of the things that we have, um, on this list of stuff that's upcoming, uh, d uh, Aristotle and Dante discovered the Secret to the Universe, very formative book for me growing up. Very excited to see that adapted soon. Um, oh, so our flag means death, gay Pirate show, second season coming, um, next month. Very excited for that. But in terms of what types of re uh, of, um, representation that I really wanna see, I mean, I wanna see more where it's queer stories that are not about being queer, that it's just, it's sci-fi or it's superheroes or it's fantasy. And there are queer people and we're getting a lot of that. And this is also just a personal thing. As a person who has a really weird subset of queer myself, I love that we're having stuff of like, here's a gay man, here's a bisexual woman, X, Y, z. I like to ha I'm excited to see like more, like more underrepresented identities explored. Um, I think will be fantastic. I think Heart Stoppers actually doing some of that. They have a, an asexual character Yes. In season two, which incredibly exciting about that. Right. Um, I think that there's a lot left to explore for a lot of people. And I'm, I'm excited to see where that goes. Speaker 1 01:05:49 You know, the thing about Heart Stoppers, I know we didn't get to talk about it that much, but like, the thing about harps I that I like is that we have both representation in queerness and in, you know, you know, just like of the makeup of people, you know, we have a black lesbian, we have a, you know, we have just a lesbian couple, we have a gay man, we have a biman, we have, you know, a transgendered, uh, black girl. You know, like we, we have so many different, like p like subsets. Like it's really hard to not find yourself represented by that show. We're like red, white, and wearing blue. I love it. But it's very like, it's, it's gay man and biman. And, but Speaker 3 01:06:27 We do, one of them is a man of color, which progress. Sure. Speaker 1 01:06:31 Thank Speaker 3 01:06:31 God I, it's only been white people falling in love for so long. <laugh>. Speaker 1 01:06:35 And we also have a, a trans character in the film too. Granted, they don't talk about it, but in the book they do talk about it a little bit. Speaker 3 01:06:42 Oh wait, who was that? I forgot about that. Speaker 1 01:06:44 It is, uh, Alex's bodyguard. Speaker 3 01:06:46 Oh, that's fantastic. Oh, I love that. I, uh, I forgot about that from the books. That's wonderful. Um, and I, I would agree with that. Speaker 1 01:06:56 Yeah. And in the collector chapter, you actually find out that, uh, she's married to a woman too, so like Yes. Power to that <laugh>. Speaker 3 01:07:02 Let's go. Speaker 1 01:07:04 Um, Uday, what do you wanna see? Or like, I mean, we, you know, Izzy brought up Dante and Aristotle discovers the Secrets of the Universe coming out. Unfortunately it's not getting a wide release 'cause I was gonna go see it, which is really sad. Um, but I have the book that I'm gonna read, so I'm excited about that one. But Uday, what do you want to see, or what are you hoping to see? Is there some book or something you're hoping to see adapted or a new take on a, on an old TV show or no film that you would like to see done properly? <laugh>, Speaker 2 01:07:30 Um, I don't know so much about that. Uh, I do wanna see like more adult content because when it comes to books, um, like Adam Ra has written like really good, like young, like gay love books, like, uh, like they both die at the end. Like I still wanna see that adapted. Yeah, yeah. But, but again, that is still like teenagers and I do want more adult stuff too. Um, and so that's something I wanna see. And then I also would like to see better mainstream representation in like, large, big budget projects. I know that Izzy mentioned like, you know, just having gay people in superhero content and that's something we didn't really talk about. But, you know, like I'm a, I'm a huge Marvel fan and I feel like the Marvel Netflix TV shows always did, you know, a a like, I was gonna say, a better job with representation than the movies, but it's not hard to do a better job when there's zero representation in the movies. Speaker 2 01:08:25 Um, sure. And that's something that's really been lost in the shift over to Disney Plus because Disney Plus on Disney plus the shows cost $200 million and you need everyone to watch them. Um, so you can't have a major L G B T character. And that's, you know, there, there are rumors like swirling around the Vission spinoff Agatha that like Catherine Hahn and Aubrey Plaza are gonna be in a relationship where like, we're in a relationship in the past. And that's something that I'm really curious to see if a company like Disney can commit to that, because that is the kind of content I would like to see, you know, where the show doesn't need to be about them being like lesbian lovers, but it informs their character dynamic because they were in the past. So like that's a rumor that I'm really hoping comes to fruition. Speaker 2 01:09:11 And I'm hoping that we start to see that kind of representation in blockbuster content instead of, you know, only relying on like, these adaptations of like books really. Right. Because like, I don't, well actually that's another thing. What about like, original, uh, like L G B T movies? Because I feel like a lot of the, uh, like gay content in particular, like with Two Men, I feel like it's all being adapted from these like young romance books with Love Simon and with Heart Stopper and uh, with Red White and Royal Blue. Um, and Hulu did have that Hallmark style movie with Kristen Stewart Happiest Season. Like that was cute. Yes. Like, I thought that that was like a pretty decent movie. Um, wow. Oh, Speaker 3 01:09:55 I did see that. Speaker 2 01:09:56 Yeah. So I mean, like what, what about more content like that that's just original and that we don't need to depend on a book for? Speaker 3 01:10:03 Look at me in my eyes. You want listen, middle aged queer people in shows, my beloved, our flag means death, good almonds, killing Eve, a lot of the ones, oh, um, interview with the Vampire, what we do in the Shadows. They're adults often, they're middle aged, they're gay. It's great, it's wonderful. And not even just gay in a way that I'm making up. Like when I used to watch House and pretend like he and Wilson were in love, like mm-hmm. <affirmative>, like gay. Gay. It's great. <laugh>. Speaker 2 01:10:31 Well, I do have Killing Eve pulled up on my computer now ever since we were talking about it. So I think I'll check it out. Speaker 3 01:10:36 Don't watch season four. Take season. Speaker 2 01:10:38 I will. I need to watch all the seasons. I will be watching. This Speaker 3 01:10:41 Is the way you watch it. You watch till the end of season three. You take it as an ambiguous ending and then you just look up them kissing in season four and you go, yeah, I'm Speaker 2 01:10:48 Gonna, I'm gonna have to see what's so bad. <laugh>, Speaker 1 01:10:52 You know what, what, what if Izzy just sent you a really good fanfic that wraps it up for you and you can just read that instead. I Speaker 2 01:10:58 Have a, I can't, I cannot watch the last season. Speaker 1 01:11:01 Um, Speaker 3 01:11:02 I'm so sorry for your loss that's going to happen. Yeah. Speaker 1 01:11:06 I I I do think that there are a lot of great media out there. I think there are a lot of, uh, there's a lot of adaptations coming. Part of me wonders is that fundamentally books are easier to hide. So they made books that like people could read in their own space. You're not going to a movie theater to see it. And so, like, this is a perpetual problem. Oh, Speaker 3 01:11:28 This gets into, so I'm an animator and this is a huge thing in animation where there's a lot of queerness that tends to be in animation. I mean, Stephen Universe, that was a big thing, stuff like that. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But part of it is that it's kind of detached from reality in a way where for some reason people find it a little bit more acceptable. I mean, obviously like when Marceline and Princess Bubblegum got together in Adventure Time, which loved them so much, um, that's, there was outrage about that of course. But there's also something about the fact that they are these fantastical creatures in an animated world, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> where it's, you're not seeing two real women kiss each other. And so there's actually a lot of animated queer content because of something like that. And we're, which listen, I love it. I love all of it. I will defend all of it to my grave. Mm-hmm. <laugh>. Um, but I, I think you're onto something there. The idea of, of books or things that don't necessarily have, you're not seeing two real people kiss or get married or be trans or X, y, z it's slightly easier to get away with it <laugh>, Speaker 1 01:12:28 Right? Oh, I, I think you're absolutely right. I mean, one of the greatest shows out there in my opinion is Legend Kora, which ends with two women kissing, you know? And like people were angry about it. And in fact, yeah. Part of me wonders if that was the decision to like dump the last couple seasons. 'cause like the last season was actually only on the website. They didn't even like air it on television. Speaker 3 01:12:50 Oh my God. And, and again, even though it's queer cartoons and that was like a gateway for a lot of people into queer content, um, stuff like The Owl House, which you know, had a main, uh, Seth Couple that was canceled. I mean, we talked, brought up First Kill that was canceled too. A lot of, a lot of sic shows are canceled, um, <laugh>. But a, a lot of, uh, queer cartoons have been canceled recently. And I think it's because they were sort of put out people don't tend to take cartoons seriously. So I think they were slightly more okay with pushing queer content of that earlier. But now that they have are such a big thing, they're starting to take it down again, which sucks, but Speaker 1 01:13:31 Absolutely. And that, I think that people think that because it's animated, it's for children, but that's not always. Yeah. Speaker 3 01:13:37 I mean that's why Disney and Pixar win the Oscars every year for best animated film, no matter who they're up against, right. Because people are just voting for what they took their kids to see. Right. Um, not necessarily the stuff that was made for adults, which is an entirely separate thing, you know, to talk about. Right. Um, yeah. Speaker 1 01:13:54 Second podcast. Speaker 3 01:13:55 Second podcast. But in terms of, of queerness, it is really interesting to look at degrees of separation away from reality. Even just in terms of when we talked about early queer representation, how it would be incredibly camp, which, listen I love camp, but like in a way where queer people were the butt of the joke. That itself kind of is a separation from reality. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And now we're getting more and more realistic portrayals. Right. It's easy to have queer people when they are the butt of the joke and it's harder when they are people you are meant to empathize with. So I'm glad that that is where we are moving forward and we are getting more and more reality with it, even if reality is we are vampires in space, it is reality. Right. Speaker 1 01:14:36 Emotional. Right. You know, Uday, going back to what you were talking about with Marvel again, I know we're getting close on time, so I'm gonna, we're gonna keep this conversation tight, but we can Speaker 3 01:14:46 Talk about this forever, <laugh>. Speaker 1 01:14:47 Um, not only, you know, is the representation in in Marvel not great. I mean, we've gotten the sprinkle of like, is Kate Bishop and is, uh, oh my gosh, what is her name? Florence Pew is her care is the actress, um, Yelena Bulova, are they gonna be together? But then we do have, we do have Billy coming, like he is gonna be in Agatha played by Joe Locke from Heart Stoppers. Like, we're gonna have that representation. Um, are you worried about that? Like, or do you think it's fine, you think that's gonna be okay? Like is that, like, is that what you're looking for? Speaker 2 01:15:26 Um, that would be what I'm looking for. Okay. I'm still concerned because again, I don't think there's any proof that Marvel can do L G B T representation. Well I think, you know, like FAOs and his husband in Eternals were great, but that was just one kiss. It's not a major character like Billy who's also rumored to get his own like spinoff show. Right. To me it's, it's like Dumbledore and Harry Potter where Dumbledore's Gay until you need to make a movie about him. And then it's back to, to just never mentioning it. Um, and then when they do it's like too little, too late. And so that's what I'm worried could happen with Billy because if they're trying, if Marvel's trying to get back to mass appeal, because I also feel like, like three years ago Marvel would've been okay, like maybe having an L G B T lead character and a little bit like lesser or a little bit smaller appeal show, but now that like a lot of their shows have become smaller appeal and like the franchise is kind of struggling, I feel like they're, they, they'd be more likely to torpedo like that kind of representation, uh, and try to get more viewers instead. Speaker 2 01:16:31 And again, that's just, that's just my feeling. It's something I'm concerned about because like the Agatha Show sounds extremely gay, like on paper, like with the cast and like the way that everyone's talking about it and then all of the rumors that are swirling around about these L G B T characters. But because Marvel Studios couldn't even like give Valkyrie like a girlfriend or like have her talk about a girlfriend in Thor Love and Thunder, um, after teasing it since like 2017 with Thor Ragner Rock, I don't really have faith in, in Disney or Marvel Studios to give us anything of substance. Speaker 3 01:17:07 If they can do it, that would make me watch the show. So here's hoping Speaker 1 01:17:12 And with that, I think that we will have to have another talk in the future about more queer representation. I think I would love to, this could be a couple, this could be every couple of months we could be putting on an episode on this. I just gotta convince Lizzie about it, um, Speaker 3 01:17:25 For always <laugh>. Speaker 1 01:17:27 So unfortunately we are running out of time, but we'd love to continue the conversation. Check us out on the the cosmic circus.com or you can find us on Twitter and other social medias at my Cosmic Circus or the Cosmic Circus podcast, Twitter at Cosmic podcast. Thank you again so much for tuning in listeners. My name is Brian Kitson and you can find me on Twitter at kitson 3 0 1. Thank you so much Izzy and Uday for joining me. Before we go, can you tell the people where they can find you? Speaker 3 01:17:53 My Twitter is between me and God. Um, it's fine. Find me on Discord and nowhere else Speaker 1 01:17:59 You heard to here, people Discord and nowhere else. Um, how about Speaker 2 01:18:04 You can find me on Twitter at Golden Ninja 3000 and Instagram and YouTube. Speaker 1 01:18:10 And as always, you can find us all the time on the Cosmic Circus website where we are writing tons of articles and we'd love to have you follow along. So thanks again, everyone can't wait for our next trip through the cosmos. Welcome back listeners to another episode of the Cosmic Circle, the official co Speaker 3 01:18:49 We're gonna get it, Speaker 1 01:18:51 We're gonna get it. All right. Is uh, Lizzie, cut that out.