Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 <silence>
Speaker 1 00:00:17 Hey everyone. Welcome back to the Cosmic Circle. This is the official podcast for the cosmic circus.com, where the site's writers get together to chat about comic books, sci-fi, and fantasy films and TV shows. Today we're talking about Moon Night. I wanna warn you there are very heavy spoilers ahead because we're gonna be talking about the entire first season. I'm ala Ruby, writer for the Cosmic Circus, and joining me today are my fellow writers, drew and head writer, da da da Brian, how are you guys today?
Speaker 2 00:00:47 Hey, I'm Drew. I'm doing pretty good today. I, uh, actually just saw Dr. Strange today. So my, my mind's a little bit, uh, focused on Dr. Strange, but I'll have to, uh, switch gears to Moon Night.
Speaker 3 00:00:59 Hey, it's Brian. Uh, I'm so excited to be here and talk about Moon Night, one of my favorite entries into the Disney Plus Marvel Universe. So I just can't wait to get started. Let's
Speaker 1 00:01:09 Get right into it. So we've seen all six episodes of Moon Night. What do you think about this series? Drew, do you wanna start off?
Speaker 2 00:01:19 Uh, I loved it. I honestly think it's probably, uh, Marvel's best Disney plus series so far. It's like really close. Like I Wand, Vission and Loki were really close for me. Like, it was like a one A and one B type of situation. And now I feel like Moon Knight kind of edged them out like a little bit. It is so hard to compare them just because like Moon Knight and Lowkey are just so like, completely different. Um, but I do feel like I, I, I really liked Moonlight. I just really liked what they did, and I, I, I love the relationship between Mark and Steven and how it's, it's, you know, you barely even notice that it's played by one person. Like, you barely notice that both Steven and Mark are played by Oscar Isaac. It's just so, like, that blew my mind the whole time, and I, I really loved it and I'm looking forward to seeing more of it in the future.
Speaker 3 00:02:09 That is, if there's more of it, uh, I also agree that the, like I said earlier, that this is the best M C U Disney plus show to date, and I was a huge Wanda Visions Stan. I didn't think I could get better than that. I also really enjoyed Hawkeye. I mean, I love all of them, but Moon Night just stands out in a way that the other ones don't. And I was in awe, you know? Great. I know I and I both were able to get the screeners ahead of time and see the four episodes, and I found myself every episode like, I gotta watch another one. I gotta watch another one. We're done with the four. And I was like, oh, I need that fifth one. Where's that fifth one? You know, moon night, just, I don't know, it was just the next level. And I don't know if that's because it's one of the first ones that really wasn't impacted by the pandemic, or, or by the, the shuffling of the schedule. Because, because of it. But it really just was top tier in a way that I don't think we've seen before on Disney Plus.
Speaker 1 00:03:09 I'm really glad that you mentioned actually two things in there, and you mentioned it too, drew, I wanna talk about this later, but I wanna talk about if you guys think that this is actually going to be the one and only Moon Night series. But first I wanna back up because, you know, you guys both said that this was so different than any of the other M C U TV shows. And it's funny because neither of you mentioned the Falcon and the Winter Soldier, and I think that that kind of gets forgotten, you know, in the Marvel shows. And that's so interesting and strange to me. But I, I agree with you guys. I really loved Moon Night. It was tremendous fun. It was entertaining. And you know, like Brian said, I couldn't wait to see another episode. And I'm, I'm sad that, you know, now we're at six and it's over, and I really do hope that we see more. Let's, let's kind of dig into the finale. What do you guys specifically think about that?
Speaker 2 00:03:58 Um, I feel like first you just have to say that Layla was awesome. Like, I loved her costume that she got. Like, I just loved her powers that she got. I think she looked great. I, I just like, I think the, um, the way she utilizes the power she has in the last, in like episode six is awesome. And it's like, you know, like you can compare it to Falcon, but like, I almost like it more like, I just think it looked better. It just looked smoother. Um, so I'm really hoping like in the future that I really hope Oscar Isaac will do more moon night, because I think there's so much potential. Like, you know, especially after introducing such a great like, female, like, you know, female superhero now. Um, I just hope that there's more in the future. And I like in, in, in terms of episode six, it felt like the same kind of Marvel finale that we've gotten through all of the Disney Plus series.
Speaker 2 00:04:52 So I think Marvel kind of has this formula in mind now for their finales. I think this was the most, well, like the, uh, they executed the formula for this finale the best, I would say. But it definitely sticks to formula. And I think there's been a lot of talk lately of, you know, Marvel formula. Should they be branching out of the formula for this kind of series? I'm not sure. I, I really liked the last episode and I liked the action we got. Um, I just hope that this isn't it. I, I, I really do think there's so much more potential with now introducing Jake and kind of having, you know, Kahu and Jake and Mark and Steven, and I think there's a huge kind of, there could be a huge back and forth in season two. I just think that there's so much more that they can do. And I, I really hope that, I really hope this isn't it.
Speaker 3 00:05:41 The thing you mentioned about the, the formula is, I always find it very interesting 'cause I hear a lot of people talk about like this Marvel formula and how it's every show is the same, but what it's doing, it's telling the hero story or the hero's journey that has been in literature for forever. And so, you know, this, while it is the basic formula, I think that this one does it so much differently. The episode six was this accumulation of a story of someone who's a superhero and someone who also has a mental illness, and someone who's come to terms with who they are as a person and who they are in the world, and what role do they play. And you got to see finally this someone who is functioning in a way that we haven't got to see them functioning before. And so, like, I think that was what made it so unique and kind of top in all this.
Speaker 3 00:06:39 Yeah. So we got the, you know, the same villain and the same type of big bad steps up on episode six. But the nuances of it are very different. And you have think, you have individuals like Layla, which I know we're gonna talk about a little later, but she went from this basic love interest very early on of like Mark trying to save her and not wanting her to be this avatar for KSU into a hero in her own regard. That you really got to see, and I don't know if either one of you what you thought about it, but the moment when that one young girl was just like, are you an Egyptian superhero? And Layla just looks at her and goes, yeah. And like, I was, I was like so happy. I was actually like cheering because Layla had progressed even just as much as Mark and Steven in a way that she didn't have to be overshadowed by them.
Speaker 3 00:07:32 And I hope that we see more of her in her own show or, or later in a series. But, um, something I also loved about the finale too and about their costumes. 'cause you mentioned about Leila's costume, is that both superheroes costumes felt so much different than the, the entire M C U. These felt very, it had the Egyptian feeling to them, and they felt like they were from a richer history. And, you know, as cool as it was to see Captain America's costume, um, at the end with Anthony Mackey of Falcon and the Winter Soldier, it just felt like another M C U costume where this one just felt like it had so much, such, such a bigger story behind it. I don't know, they were just really cool. They did a really great job.
Speaker 2 00:08:18 Yeah. Um, I just really loved the progression of Layla's character. I feel like I was a little bit worried at first. I just, because I like hadn't, I mean, Layla's like a new take on, um, a different character from the comic books. I can't remember the name, but, um, I was a little bit worried. Charlotte
Speaker 1 00:08:34 Scarab, I believe is her name or his name in the comic. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:08:37 What, what was his love interest? Uh, like early, like in the comics, I know that they, it was some other name. It wasn't Layla, right? It was
Speaker 1 00:08:44 Echo at one point. It was, I think Marlene was the original love interest. Yeah. Marlene. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:08:49 Yeah. So I wasn't like too familiar. So I really had no idea what the progression of Layla was gonna be. I had no idea of her story. I had, like, I had known about Moonlight, so I was a little bit worried about Layla. I just, I wasn't sure the direction they were going with her. And I think that she had a really rich story. And I think, um, you know, like what Brian said, their co the costume design was brilliant. Like, I, I really loved the Moonlight costume, Mr. And High costume was great. Um, you know, Layla's Scarlet Scarab costume was awesome. Um, I like that. It was like, it stays, it, it felt, it felt almost more like true to Egyptian history than in the comic books. You know, like, um, that's what I really love. Like, almost that like, he's like mummified through that like superhero suit and like Layla's costume, just, it just looks really good. Um, but yeah, like I'm really, I was really impressed with how they, the show focused so much on Mark and Mark and Steven. I'm really impressed how they were able to squeeze in time to give Layla such a rich character arc. Um, and I thought I was really, I impressive.
Speaker 1 00:09:51 I think this show, what, so you guys both mentioned kind of the M C U formula and I think what this show was almost was kind of a, um, a test of the m c u's storytelling ability because can you care about a character that doesn't have all of this history backing, you know, backing it up? Because the other shows there was Wanda and the Avengers History Falcon and the Winter Soldier and the Avengers history. There was Loki and all the Thor history. And then we get this totally new set of characters. We get Moon Night and there really aren't any other M C U references. We get Layla. And, you know, by the end of it, we're all talking about how much we love Layla and how much we loved Moon Night. And you know, I think Brian made the point that we've been using this storytelling formula as humans for hundred or thousands of years. And, you know, again, it works, it works here and it's so effectively executed that we care about these characters. And I think that's really a testament to how well Marvel does that,
Speaker 3 00:10:47 You know? Oh, can I, can I, I just wanna jump in real quick. Go I for it. I think that as well there, I do think though, the, one of the things that, that we need to talk about the finale though too is that there was, there was an issue and the issue was that there wasn't enough time. I feel like, again, with the, going back to this formula, there is definitely this issue where we almost run outta time to, to finish the story. And I don't know if, if Marvel's enforcing the, like the sixth episode count or if that's the firm boundary, but it feels like we could have had one more episode and really had like, I don't know, like a longer fight and a more satisfying conclusion. I feel like there would've been a little more time with the Gods and the, the repercussions of giving up the suit and stuff like that. I feel like there was just some really rushed aspects of this finale that yeah, we needed to, we needed more time to
Speaker 2 00:11:35 Deal with. That's exactly, that's exactly what I meant in terms of the, uh, episode six formula. I probably should have conveyed that a little bit better, was what I meant by that was the pacing. I think they, like Marvel has written Act one and Act two of TV shows, they've kind of stretched it out almost too long. And then when, when they get to act three, it's really weird. They just did the last episode and they, and the pacing of it is so fast that it feels like you kind of like Skimm through the, like the third act. That's kinda what it felt like for this. It felt fine. Like I felt satisfied. But I think you can argue that Act three of kind of every, uh, like M C U show has kind of felt a little bit rushed maybe besides Loki, I think Loki episode five and six was good.
Speaker 2 00:12:18 And like, I, I feel like that was like kind of the one show where you had like a satisfying act, like a, you know, there was enough time to get through all of Act through without feeling like you rushed through all of it. And I feel like Moon Night was like almost there. It just, and when I, I mean when everybody saw the 42 Minute Runtime, I think everybody got a little bit nervous and like, obviously it made me a little bit nervous 'cause I'm like, Ugh, we're gonna do this again. Where we kind of, we get through everything way too quickly. I just wish that I, I hope going forward that they can give Act Three a little bit more time to breathe. 'cause I think there was a lot of, a lot more stuff they could have done with Amit. I I just think that there's, they need to learn to just let things breathe a little bit in the third act. But other than that, I, I really loved it.
Speaker 1 00:12:58 I actually wanna take that a step further. You guys both have mentioned how, how short this series has has been and seemed. Do you think it's kind of almost a failure of TV in general now that we have such short season ones and season twos of just television? Like we don't really get 20 episodes to hang out with characters and answer all of our questions anymore. Because I, I know while watching this show, I was keeping kind of a running list of notes of questions that I, you know, I wanted answers to. And you know, this, this list is huge. I have so many questions about Harrow and, you know, harrows Origin with KSU and how that all came about. And I just think we could have had so much more time with these characters and I think it would've worked 'cause we, we wanted to hang out with them 'cause they were fun.
Speaker 2 00:13:42 Yeah. This, this series very easily could have been a 10 episode series. I mean, there was a lot left kind of up for, you know, I, I think that you could have done a lot more with how Harrow was, was Con's avatar and how he went from Consu to Amit. And I just feel like there was a lot more, we, I feel like we could've seen more of the backstory. I know that they did, they kind of felt like Mark had kind of had like a, they, they didn't want to go through Mark's backstory with like how he becomes his Moon Knight. They kind of skimmed through that. But I feel like we could've taken a look into Mark's past a little bit more other than episode five. I just feel like they done 10 episodes. Um, and they would've been completely fine. I mean, wand Division was nine episodes. I think there was a times where Wand Division felt a little bit long. I would've been fine if they did like 10 episodes and the episode times were reduced a little bit. But overall, like, I'm happy with the series. I think it was great. I'm don't really, I'm not like, you know, I'm not mad about anything, you know, I just nitpick a lot. But that's my thought.
Speaker 3 00:14:43 So the thing I that I think for a lot of televisions is that it really depends on what the story dictates. 'cause there's some shows that are 22 episodes that I think, wow, you don't need to be 22 episodes. The one that's coming to mind the most is like Arrow Flash. There's, when you start to have more, quite a few filler episodes that don't add anything to the story, you need to trim a little bit. But I think there's sometimes that shorter seasons could be a dent detriment when you're developing it and you're starting to cut pieces because you don't have time. And I know that when Di Disney Plus was coming around and Marvel was announcing the shows, there was this like, this like point where everyone was talking about like, oh, they want six hours per story. And so like, that's why I Wound Vision was spread out because they were shorter episodes.
Speaker 3 00:15:24 And I think once you start dictating the amount of time to spend with these characters, you are really kind of putting the story in a choke hold because you start to get almost lazy writing where like, well we have to get to the end. We have to, we have to have, we have to just do certain things. And one of those things that stands out is the fight at the end of moon night where part of the fight they black out and he and Mark just wakes up. Mark and Steven just wake up and we know that there's been something else, but all of it's just been done for us. And that did it. That did feel a little lazy because we couldn't see that. But there wasn't time to see it because they had their numbers that they had to reach and, you know, so I think it just depends on the story. You, you could have a season of 13 episodes, you could have a season of seven episodes or six, but I, you should make sure that everything, when you're watching it, watch it as like you're almost a stranger coming into the story. And can you understand it from start to finish without all the pieces or without the knowledge that there's more pieces coming. Like if you're gonna tell a story, I wanna know if there's gonna be a season two then so that we can get more of those questions answered.
Speaker 2 00:16:33 Yeah, I don't, I'm not a fan of putting time constraints on things. I think give the, you know, I'm not sure, you know, if they brought in, you know, the team that they brought in, they were like, okay, we're doing this in six episodes. You have six episodes to write and fit your story. I just feel like going forward I hope that they'd learn to give this like, you know, don't put time constraints on things. You know, like kinda like you were saying. 'cause yeah, in the last episode I just, I think there was probably another 20 minutes of like, time they could have used on like this just kind of letting the last episode breathe a little bit. I mean, trapping Ahmet in, in Harrow pretty much directly after that you cut straight to Mark and Steven waking up and then the series and that's it. Like, it just doesn't feel like there was like any kind of outro to the series. Like, we don't know where Layla went. We don't know what the status of Layla and Mark is like.
Speaker 1 00:17:32 Well, do you think that's intentional? Do you think they're trying? Because I think with the post credited scene, I think,
Speaker 2 00:17:38 I think it's more just like, we're just supposed to assume that everything is like good. You know, like we're just supposed to, like, that's kind of like the vibe I got was like, they didn't wanna waste time on like, you know, like a Mark and Mark and Layla like dialogue scene or like, uh, I don't know. Mark and Steven never really acknowledged how they got back to their apartment or why they have the, why do they have the, the ankle bracelet on again to trap them in the bed? That was kind of weird. I didn't, I didn't, I didn't really understand that why they still did that and put the sand around there. Maybe, maybe they were assuming had a third personality. I, I just dunno, that was weird to me.
Speaker 1 00:18:19 I was disappointed actually with, with kind of Mark and Layla's progression in, you know, by the final episode. And in one respect I felt like they needed another, you know, emotional moment where they kind of came to terms with Mark having, you know, been a part of her father's death. I don't think that was, that was really not fought out, but that was really, uh, settled between the two. And I was kind of, uh, a little bit sad about that.
Speaker 2 00:18:45 Yeah. We never really got like a proper conclusion to that, which was weird. It's like they had that one really brief conversation about Mark being involved with Layla's dad and Mark gets killed and then Mark comes back and him and Layla kind of like, are like, okay, we have a mission right now. We can't focus on that. But then once the mission's over, we never get to that. And it's not like we know a season two's coming. It's not like we know that story's gonna be continued. So it just was weird. I feel like, I don't know, I I I I like the series. Like I, like I said, like I have no problems. I'm just nitpicky and these are my little, you know, my little nitpicks. But yeah, I, I think there's always gonna be something, there's always gonna be that. That's the thing I've learned. There's always gonna be something that you're gonna be like, oh, they could have done this. Those, they could have done that. But I do think in the last episode they, there were certainly a noticeable amount of things that they could have done that they decided not to do.
Speaker 1 00:19:44 Brian, it looked like you had something to say.
Speaker 3 00:19:47 Yeah, I was gonna say that I, I think that part of it wasn't intentional because I think the, the moment I finished the episode, I, I texted my sister and I was like, Hey, did you watch it? And she was like, yeah, of course. And I was like, okay, cool. So they left Layla open for her own show specifically there, right? And she was like, oh, a hundred percent. Because there was this obvious gap of he wakes up in his bed, we don't know what happened to Layla. We don't know if, if the avatar relationship was temporary or not. There's more there that is going to be explored somewhere, whether in Moon night season two, which I would be super shocked if there isn't something in the development already or in her own series, which I really hope it is because that there was a, there was, that was just such a big glaring light in the face of this is almost like too big to drop.
Speaker 3 00:20:40 This isn't like a fun post credit scene. Like man in the was where the, you know, the an was tapping on a drum. This was, was like when Ant Man is stuck in the quantum realm. This is something, there's a lot of big pieces here that wasn't resolved, especially in the post credit scene that is definitely leading to something else. And I think fans would be very disappointed if we didn't get more resolution because if it wasn't for, I guess if you would've stopped it before the post credit scene, it would've almost been a complete story. But now it's not. And there's, there's so many threads that we need to be addressed that need to have been addressed at this point. Now, um,
Speaker 1 00:21:17 Let's talk about that post credit scene though. Let's talk about, you know, Jake Lockley, his introduction, what you guys thought about that because that's, you know, kind of a nice segue into that.
Speaker 2 00:21:27 So I feel like you kind of had to assume it was coming. It wasn't, I was not shocked. I was more so prepared for the post credit scene to be Jake. I liked it. I I think it really sets up season two really nicely. I think it sets up the conflict of season two really nicely because you think, you think, okay, conche has released Mark and, and Steven and you're like, why did he do, why did he go so quick? Why did he go so easily? And then you realize that Con's really just playing Mark and Steven and he's really working with Jake the whole time. And so I really feel like you have a nice conflict to resolve in season two because you, you resolved, it's kind of like they're gonna repeat season one in, in season two in a different way because you had Mark and Steven in that mystery of Steven not knowing that Mark existed and kind of them coming to terms with each other and like kind of, you know, becoming like brothers, internal brothers.
Speaker 2 00:22:23 You're gonna kind of repeat that. I feel like they're gonna repeat that over again in season two. And I kind of hope that that doesn't, I I I just hope that there's a different relationship. I hope that Mark and Steven develop a relationship with Jake in a different way that Mark and Steven, and obviously it'll be different, but I just hope that it doesn't feel the same even though it might need to be the same in, uh, and that's why, that's what I'll leave to Brian, because Brian knows a lot more about D I d and how they're gonna, relationships are gonna develop, but I'm just really curious to see how they go in a different direction with that. In the second season. I, I would assume there's gonna be a second season or something in the future.
Speaker 3 00:22:58 So I was very torn about the, the Jake Lockley reveal because Jake Lockley is such an important part of Moon Night. I was hoping that this was going to be sooner, like maybe like at the end of like a season, uh, episode three, um, post credit seniors or, or, or something like that. But holding him out to the very end of the series really felt like, okay, you teed up the ball we're, you know, there's something else coming. We know he is coming back, which also felt really weird as to why they didn't announce something else in the pipeline. Kinda like at Loki where you, where it said like, season two's coming, it felt weird that you teed up this character to not get to see any of that progression. I do think that it's going to be a different relationship though. My ideal for what the season two sh is probably going to be stems on actually a sentence that Mark and Steven say prior to waking up at the end when we see them in the, um, the mental hospital, we see, you know, they're talking to Harrow and they said that they want to be a superhero.
Speaker 3 00:24:08 And so I think that what's gonna happen is that with the absence of the power now you're going to see them try to find Concho again and like ask for their powers back only to find out that he's closer to home than either one of them think. I mean, he's right in their backyard and that's gonna piss them off in a new way. And that's going to really start this, this relationship between Mark and Steven and Jake. I do think that Jake is going to be taking on more of like a, uh, persecutor role, um, in the system, which, um, is going to automatically put them on opposing sides and that's gonna take a lot of issues to resolve, but I think it's going to really be a different, uh, dynamic that we haven't seen before yet.
Speaker 2 00:24:53 Yeah, I think it's gonna be a weird, uh, like it's gonna be a weird realization for Mark and Steven to know that they've had a, like they have a murder living inside with them. Like I think both of them don't wanna be murderers and they both wanna do things the right way. And I think it's gonna be really like, you know, kind of ground groundbreaking for them to like be introduced to Jake and see that, you know, Jake and Conia have been working behind, behind their backs and that Jake is a murderer. And I think it's gonna be, you know, like Steven really hated Mark for, because he thought Mark was like a murderer now that he learns like, you know, Jake is like a real like murderer and I think there's gonna be like a, I really think it's gonna be like, you know, mark and Steven versus Jake and Con
Speaker 1 00:25:39 I think this is also a kind of a great moment to, to talk about d i d in a little bit more detail. Um, you know, if you've been reading the site then you know that Brian is is our site's cosmic psychologist and he did a really great article all about Moon Night and how it portrayed d i d and I wanted to kind of get Brian's take and, and you too as well Drew on, you know, what you thought of the back half of the season and how they, you know, handled that.
Speaker 3 00:26:08 You know, going into the show, I was really worried about how they were gonna talk about mental health. I guess this is a conversation that we should be having and we should be having it in a format that is approachable to many different individuals, like, like a TV show. But when you factor in the superhero component, there's so many ways it's could have gone bad. Um, the main example that always comes to my mind is the movie Split where James McAvoy does a great performance, but it is not an accurate representation of what dissociative identity disorder is. And the, the worst part about it is that of his personalities, there's one that has superpowers because he has d i t or the altars does have super strength. They can climb on walls and jump from high buildings and can repair themselves when they're shot. And that's not true to what d i d is.
Speaker 3 00:27:10 And so what I love so much about Moonlight is that they took the time to not only explain how this is developed, but also to show that even though Mark and Steven have superpowers, their superpower is not d i d Episode five is going to be one of the best examples that we have to date of what d I D is and how it's formed, the trauma of that people go through the comp complex trauma. 'cause this isn't just always a one traumatic moment, but this is usually years and years of compounded trauma, um, that causes the, uh, the the split in the alter to form. And, you know, even the tough parts and some of the times that we could've really had, we we rough moments or, or cringey moments of them talking about it such as like the conversation of what Steven's role is was handled pretty well.
Speaker 3 00:28:07 And I think it shows even in episode six when, when Mark goes back for Steven and he explains to him that this is not like your role wasn't just to protect me or or for you or for you to, for me to handle the hard stuff because you couldn't, you know, that, that there, there's more to this, this dynamic that we have. I'm just in awe of how well they did it. And I know that they brought in psychologists behind the scenes to really help flush this out. And I'm glad they did that because this could have been a mess. But they really did understand or try to understand and paint a really healthy picture of individuals with dissociative identity disorder.
Speaker 1 00:28:51 Now there's a, so there's a line in episode six and it says, I think what, so this is when Mark has gone back for Steven in the sand and you know, Steven is essentially a sand sculpture. He's, he's dead and Mark is going to rescue him. And Mark says to him as he's grabbing his hand, the only real superpower I've ever had is you, do you think that undoes any of the good work that, or undoes any of the good work that the series, you know, did with portraying d i d or is that, you know, is that kind of just a line? Is that just, does that fit?
Speaker 3 00:29:26 So I do think it fits with this because I don't think that he meant it as like the superpower of, you know, you you've made me strong, but, or like you've given me something that I couldn't do before. But this is is something the, I think it was just supposed to be a very sentimental moment. It's kind of like your superpower is your compassion or your superpower is the, is is the thing that balance you, you an individual. I don't think that they, they meant it in any harmful way, nor do I, did it come off that way the many times that I watched it. This just, Steven is the heart of the system, you know, mark has doesn't always have the moral compass, it seems like. And Steven balanced him out. Stephen reminded him of what it meant to be a, you know, a human and reminded him what it meant to be caring about other people. So I think that's what it meant. And I, I don't think it took away from any of the progress that they did.
Speaker 2 00:30:31 Yeah, I mean, <laugh>, I pretty much agree with Brian. I think overall I just feel really content with the relationship between Mark and Steven. I don't really feel like that's the thing I think I'm most content about is the relationship between Mark and Steven. I don't feel like they missed anything. I don't feel like there's anywhere that they could have gone with that. I think they really nailed that. And it just, that was like, it felt like the heart of the show was just the, the relationship between Mark and Steven.
Speaker 1 00:31:04 Where do you think, we'll, we will next see Moon night. Are we going to see him, you know, in a second season? Are we gonna see him pop up in an ensemble show, maybe a Halloween special or a movie? Do you guys have thoughts on that?
Speaker 2 00:31:18 I have a lot of thoughts on that. So from fans that have kept up with Oscar Isaac's interview, I don't think he was necessarily super happy with the way Star Wars ended for him. Um, just based off of the interviews for Rise of Skywalker, I think he was fairly disappointed. And I think for him to get back into like the mainstream kind of, I mean, some people would call it popcorn movies of Marvel, DC and Star Wars. For him to do that, he really wanted it to, it seems like he really wanted it to be a good story. And that seems like the only reason why him and, and Ethan Hawk did, did Moon Night because they dedicated it to being a good story. And Oscar Isaac has kind of said, you know, I would be back, I think there was a quote, I don't remember, uh, from where, but you know, I think he said he, he, you know, he would love to do it if as long as there's a good story he'll be, he would do it. So I don't get the sense that you're gonna see Moonlight in a ton of crossovers or you're gonna get him in a ton of, you know, like M C U style crossovers. Like I don't get the sense that he's gonna be in Midnight Suns unless Marvel gives him a huge paycheck, which I mean, who knows? Um, I I get the sense that you're more likely to see him in a season two that's really well written than seeing him show up anywhere else.
Speaker 3 00:32:34 I definitely think that we're gonna see him in the Halloween special werewolf by night only because Jake is gonna fit really well into that world. Someone who's a little more scary. You know, he's, he, we see him, we see the point in time in the series where he pops up and he's not the easygoing one. So I think that he's gonna show up in like a hall the Halloween special, or even like a blade before he crosses over. But I think that Oscar Isaac was really playing Coi. He was doing the marvel answer of, oh, we'll see what happens. There's no way that they were gonna pick someone to play Moon Night who wasn't going to be coming back for the next 10 years of their projects. I mean, let's be honest here, Marvel's not stupid. Marvel wants their people locked in for long projects. And even though if they only paid him for one right now, or that he only signed up for one, there is a bigger picture here that he's a part of and that he knows full well what's about to happen. But I definitely think that we're gonna see him soon with an Isla. What, what, what do you think, I mean, and also ask the last question too, be you, what did, what did you think of the psychological representation of Moon Night?
Speaker 1 00:33:51 So I, well first I learned a lot from your article and I thought that was kind of a good place to start because I didn't know really anything about, about D I d before the show and before, you know, reading about it in connection with the show. So all of this is very new and I think, you know, based on what I've read from you and based on what I've read elsewhere, it seems like a fairly reasonable and I guess a reasonably accurate way of, of representing, you know, the, the situation. So I thought that was kind of interesting. I'm the thing that really, so I'm a writer and I, I think about character a lot. The thing I think about going forward, you know, also with the second season, if there's going to be one, I think about Mark and Steven now have this life where they're not superheroes anymore and, and one of their alters is a superhero.
Speaker 1 00:34:42 And I just think about how, how rich a place set is for conflict and how fun the storytelling could be with that. So that's what really excites me there, and I'm really curious to see how they pull it off and if they pull it off. And I, you know, on that same note, I don't think, I just can't see it happening in a movie. I think that, I think it has to be in a second season of a show and I really, I want them to appear in werewolf by night and, and Blade, but I just, you know, the character development all that you would need to do, I just, I can't see it happening in something so short or something in such a, what would be a small cameo. I think it would have to be a longer role. So that's kinda my feelings on that.
Speaker 3 00:35:27 I do think that you're right in the aspect of when we consider everything that they've done in this first season, the conversation that needs to still be had about d i d and this character as a whole shouldn't be something that's done in a movie, even if it is just like a Moon night movie, because a film does have an even tighter time constraint. And the more time constraining that something is, I feel like the more chance we have of glossing over something or not being able to have the proper conversation that we need to have about, about these difficult topics. This, this character is made for television show. I do think eventually how we are gonna see him cross over into films and into other shows be whatever project it is. I mean, like Dare Devo would be a great one, but I do think that with the trajectory of the conversation, we do need something maybe a little more formatted and a little more removed from the world to continue having that conversation. Right.
Speaker 2 00:36:24 I wanna see him with Spider Spider-Man so bad. I feel like that would be such a great, like the banter between them would be so great. Like between Spiderman and Steven and like Mark interjecting, I can totally see that happening. I feel like they have a lot to resolve within Mark and Steven and Jake before they kind of move on to putting him into crossovers. I feel like a season two is gotta be where we see him next. I just don't see any way, season two doesn't happen with how big of a success this is and like how many people love Moon Knight. I think Oscar Isaac, I don't see any way that he can't, like he, he wouldn't come back.
Speaker 1 00:37:03 I could see him, um, I could see the character next in a Scarlet Scab show, but that seems very, very far off. And I don't know necessarily what the story engine to that show would be. I mean, I know it, I think Layla is amazing and I think The Scarlet Scarab is amazing and I don't know, like, I don't know how he would fit into that, is what I'm trying to say because I don't if, you know, if it's her own show, he wouldn't be the focus. So, you know, that's something that I'm kind of, um, struggling with a little bit.
Speaker 3 00:37:32 You know, I think that it's interesting when you said about maybe the Scarlet Scarab show being far out, because automatically what comes to my head is that they fast track both an Agatha Harkness and the Echo TV show, which were both sub characters in someone else's story. So I could totally see a, a Scarlet Scared story being fast tracked as well if they had an idea already and they got the reception that they wanted. People are loving her people are the conversations people are having about representation for in so many ways in the show. I think that there's, that we're gonna see a Scar, a Scarlet Scarab show within the next two to three years if it's not even announced at D 23 this year.
Speaker 2 00:38:15 I wonder if they're gonna, whether I feel like they're gonna announce season two at San Diego Comic-Con.
Speaker 1 00:38:21 So I'm, I just looked up actually, the, the point you made about Echo O'Brien was really interesting and I just looked up when all that development happened, and that's 2020 and I, I guess in Marvel years, that is kind of fast tracked. So yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if that's happening now.
Speaker 2 00:38:37 Yeah, I think they went into Hawkeye with the plans to spin Echo outta that. I wonder if they did the same thing for this. I just wonder like internally what Marvel's thoughts are on, like, I I could totally see it being fast tracked. I just wonder if they're gonna wait till after season two of Moon Night to do a Scarlet Scare Up series and have her kind of, I I feel like she needs to develop into The Scarlet Scare up a little bit more. I wanna see before she kind of owns the, like, you know, the, the title Scarlet Scare. But I feel like part of season two could be her kind of developing into that character, maybe like her kind of letting go of being to where it's, um, avatar and then kind of realizing that, you know, she could do a lot of good, like as an Egyptian superhero. Like I, I I just feel like there's a lot of room for her to like develop into that character.
Speaker 3 00:39:33 I will say that I do think that if we did get a show with Scarlet Scarab as the, um, like the main character, I think that it would be better if it almost dived more into the Egyptian lore and the, the gods and stuff like that because her, the, the gods that she, the goddess that she's an avatar for is still in with the, with the gods. Not like <inaudible> where he got kicked out. So we could get more of those dynamics and then really explore like how they work and about the, what is the other word called the, the nether void or
Speaker 1 00:40:11 Yeah, or over void or other void depending on, on which comics. I think
Speaker 3 00:40:17 Wouldn't that be such a cool show for her to be like, to lead exploring some of that really dealing with that supernatural aspect, getting to know a world outside of, out of our world in, in such a, such a grand way. I think that would be a really good focus.
Speaker 1 00:40:33 See, I'm, I have kind of a different view on that. You know, I think that, I think that she's kind of a great vehicle to see the greater, you know, to bring Moon Night in touch with the greater, um, M C U because there was a reference to Repo and her work in repo with the Midnight Man. And I think that's just like so fascinating. I totally wanna see her as kind of a reverse Indiana Jones, like repatriating artifacts, you know, around, around the world and, you know, kind of using her Scarlet Scarab powers to do that. So I think that would be really fun and kind of see her encounter maybe all the stuff in Mad Report and, and elsewhere.
Speaker 3 00:41:16 I love that. That's actually scratch what I said. That is amazing.
Speaker 1 00:41:21 Okay, so do you guys think that Harrow is gone for good? Is he really dead and did Jake really kill him?
Speaker 2 00:41:29 Yeah, it just depends on if Ethan Hawk wants to do it again. I mean, you know, Marvel, there's always a way where, you know, like they're, if they really wanna bring, if Ethan Hawk wants to come back and if Marvel wants him back, then I think that there's more story with Amit. Um, I tend to see that it's a trend with villains that they get kind of incorporated into the story kind of as an anti-hero. Like, you know, like anti-heroes where they kind of have to, they're, they're forced to work with Mark. And I could kind of see a situation like that where maybe heroes knock on he's, you know, like he has the power of Ahmed, but maybe there's another God that's like really evil and him and like Harrow and like, and Mark have to work together. I could see a situation like that.
Speaker 2 00:42:22 Other than that I just don't know, like how do you incorporate him back into the story? I don't know. I'm, I'm sure you know, like I said, like, I mean Ethan Hawk was great and I think he really did put a lot of work into like the character he played, which I appreciated, um, that he kind of, he like based it off of like a cult leader. And I think he did a really good job of that. It just like, he played such like a, like this, like cunning, like, it, it's just, it was really good and I think it'd be great to have him back. I just don't know. I don't really know how, you know, like, but like I said, Marvel always finds a way,
Speaker 3 00:43:00 The thing that I think is very interesting though is that typical Marvel rule is that we never saw him die. We never saw a body, we never, we saw a gun go off, let's put it that way. We saw Jake's face, we saw the gun point, we see it, shoot, we don't see anything else. And so right away part of me thinking, oh, he's not dead. He, they scared him. They were trying to intimidate him. There is, unless we see a body or we have some confirmation of an actual death, they're not gone. And so Harrow is still there and Imad is still around. And so I think there's a really, really good chance that we're gonna see them pop up in something else, if not a season two, some other series down the road. And it's gonna be the, the anti-hero works with the hero, I guess the villain. 'cause he's not a anti-hero, but Harrow I feel is, is back.
Speaker 1 00:43:57 I agree. I don't think Harrow is dead. 'cause I mean, how do you kill a God and you, you know, how do you kill a God with a bullet that doesn't really work? Especially one that was as powerful as Amit. And I think that there's still a lot to be explored with Harrow. I think we don't know what his relat, how did his relationship with Kahu go bad? And I want to find out, I wanna know, well why wasn't he, you know, his own twisted Moonlight anymore? What, what happened there? How did he go over to Amit's side and like work with her and, you know, convince her to let him become her avatar? I just think there's so much story potential, so much really interesting stuff there that we, we almost have to see him again.
Speaker 2 00:44:40 I really almost wish that there was a way for Mark to be Moonlight without Concho just 'cause look or just for there to be a way where Concho and Mark can operate separately while Mark still has the powers. Because I feel like Concho is always gonna be this guy looking over his shoulder, twisting him. And I, I don't know if I just feel like that might get old eventually. Like I feel like Mark and Steven made so much progress with Concho, but then we find out at the end that that was all a lie. And I just wonder if they're gonna try and do that again where we kind of get Mark and Steven and Jake, you know, coming, you know, like kind of, you know, coming to a truce with Concho and it just, I just hope we don't get to a repetitive circle of deception. And I mean, I don't, like I said, I I didn't read the Moonlight Comics and that's probably my fault for not doing that before the series, so I don't exactly know. Um, I don't know if you guys have, and you guys can provide some more detail, but I certainly hope there's a resolution to the relationship between Chu and Mark and Steven eventually,
Speaker 3 00:45:47 I, in most of the series that I've read, Kahu is evolved and he is a very, he's definitely an antagonist where he takes the powers away whenever he's upset with Mark. And Mark doesn't really have a say in any of it. So I think that the pandemic's gonna stay. I do think it's interesting because they almost softened Concho a lot for the show compared to some of the series that I read, um, until the very end when he was just kinda like, haha, look at, I still have control over you. And that was the first time he really got to see kind of that, that really sinister concho from the comic books
Speaker 1 00:46:24 In this show. You know, up until that point that you're talking about Brian, he doesn't seem bad, right? He's trying to protect the travelers of the night and he's trying to protect the world from, you know, the horribleness of vomit. So he's kind of, he's kind of a good guy and it, it isn't until that end seen in Jake Lawley's limo, um, with a very interesting license plate that you get to see, you know, this, this kind of twisted side of him in this real sinister streak. So I think that going forward we'll see if that continues.
Speaker 2 00:46:57 Yeah, I'll be honest, that might get a little bit old for me. Like <laugh>, just me personally, I, I like Chu. I just, uh, I hate, like, I hate the, like when there's a character, there's characters and they're friends and then they're not friends and they're friends and I don't know, I just hope it isn't, it doesn't become redundant, but I I don't think it will, I think they'll figure something out.
Speaker 3 00:47:23 I was gonna say just in the comics too, there is this aspect though that Kru isn't always around as long as he doesn't disagree with what Mark or Steven or Jake are doing. And the moment that Mark has a moment of like, oh, I don't like what, I don't like this, and Concho has a problem with that, he shows up kind of like Mob Boss style almost, of just, you know, he's sitting in a chair in that crisp, uh, you know, three piece suit and being like, okay, you're supposed to do what I want you to do, don't mess this up. And that's only the, a lot of the times where he really shows up is during those conflict issues. So it would be cool if maybe it does progress to that and like, even though he's there, he's not always present, which will probably cut down on c g I as well, but you really have that, that idea that he is always watching, but he isn't always angry as long as Mark's doing what he wants.
Speaker 1 00:48:20 All right guys, I think that might be all for today. Uh, thank you very much for being here. That's, you know, my name is Aila and if you guys wanna go around and say, you know, your name and what you're working on and
Speaker 2 00:48:32 <laugh> no worries. Uh, yeah, I'm, I'm Drew. Um, right now I'm, I'm mainly working on, um, I'm actually working on a Funko guide just to guide to all things Funko. And I talked to Lizzie about that and Lizzie was interested in that too. So I'm working on that right now. And then I think I'm gonna get, I've kind of delayed my Batman villains series articles, um, but I think I'm gonna get to work on that after I'm done with this article. But I'll, uh, I'll pass it to Brian.
Speaker 3 00:49:04 So Drew, with this guide, are you gonna tell me how I can get that, uh, Scarlet Scarab Funko Pop from San Diego ComicCon because Oh,
Speaker 2 00:49:12 Of course, I'm,
Speaker 1 00:49:13 I need that too.
Speaker 3 00:49:14 I need to hook up
Speaker 2 00:49:16 <laugh>, of course. I'll, don't worry.
Speaker 3 00:49:18 Um, of course
Speaker 2 00:49:19 It's been a, been a topic of conversation in the Discord lately.
Speaker 3 00:49:24 Uh, absolutely it is. I gotta have that one. Um, my name is Brian and as always, it's a pleasure to be on here. I'm currently working on ooh, seven articles in different stages. I have a really, uh, in-depth, uh, Dr. Strange review coming out. I got some stuff about Wicked, I got some Know your villains coming up for, uh, miss Marvel for Guardians of the Galaxy. I don't know if everybody's been following that, but the Cosmic Circle has been really hitting up the Guardians of the Galaxy Volume three information. So please look it up if you have to. And I think I have another Wanda, um, in Sh Chi, um, article coming up about the parallels between kinda like a companion piece of what I already wrote about the manipulation and grief and how that really pushes us in ways, um, to do things that maybe we wouldn't normally do. So another, another psychological piece coming your way
Speaker 1 00:50:20 That does it for this episode, you com. Stay tuned for our next episode about Strange and the Multiverse of Madness. And if you liked what.
