Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 <silence>
Speaker 1 00:00:16 Hey everyone, welcome back to the Cosmic Circle. This is the official podcast for the cosmic circus.com, where the sites writers get together to chat about comic books, sci-fi, and fantasy films and TV series. I've been super excited to record this episode in particular because today we're gonna be talking about a long awaited Marvel Studio sequel, Dr. Strange, in the Multiverse of Madness. I'm Uday Kataria, writer for the Cosmic Circus, and joining me today are my fellow writers, drew, Brian and Julia. Can everyone introduce themselves and say whether you're hashtag Team Witch or hashtag Team Strange?
Speaker 2 00:00:49 Hey, I'm Drew. In terms of if I'm hashtag Team Witch or Team Strange. I don't know. I think I'm a little bit of both sides, so I'll leave it at that.
Speaker 3 00:00:57 Hey everybody, I'm Brian Kitson. I think for the purpose of what we're gonna be talking about, I think I have to be Team Strange here.
Speaker 4 00:01:03 I'm Julia, and I think I agree, even though I normally like Wanda more in this movie, I was Team Strange.
Speaker 1 00:01:10 Uh, well, as you guys at the website all know I am extremely team witch. Uh, that's mostly a joke, but not really. So full disclosure here for all of the listeners, like I'm a huge Wanda fan, so I'm gonna apologize in advance if I skew the conversation towards her. Um, I've gotten into some pretty spirited conversations with my fellow writers about this movie, but we're gonna try to keep it light today. So the first question I want to ask you guys is how did you feel about Wanda's turn to the Dark side in Multiverse and Madness?
Speaker 2 00:01:39 I think it was to be expected, honestly, from like a, somebody who follows the movies very deeply point of view, it's to be expected. I think it was surprising for some people who don't follow these movies as some people, people who don't follow like the movies, like as, as deeply as some of us do. And I think some of those people were caught off guard, especially with how quickly the movie moved in the first act. It kind of really jumped like straight into it with like, you know, in a very, very short amount of time. I think that caught some people off guard. But yeah, I think it was to be expected to see Wanda Turn to the Dark side, you know, with getting the dark hold and you know, like the post credit scene in Wa Vission, I think it was, I wasn't surprised and like we knew this was coming, I just couldn't, I can understand why it felt like very, very fast for some people. I
Speaker 3 00:02:21 Will say that I think that if you've watched Wa Vission, this was not a shock at all. Like, Wanda leaves westview with the dark hold and we see her in the post credit scene and this was the trajectory she was going on. I mean, you don't leave with an evil book and start studying an evil book, and I expect to go down an evil road. So I wasn't shocked at, at all by this, but for casual viewers, I would agree with Drew that maybe they weren't anticipating it. Um, though by, by even the trailers, I don't know how you maybe didn't see it, but this is the trajectory I totally expected, wanted to go on.
Speaker 4 00:02:49 Um, I was not surprised 'cause I've known about this for a year, thank you, Lizzie, but I was very bothered by it. I was not happy. I was not happy that they spent so much time on Wander Vission trying to like Disney and Marvel pre presenting it as like this positive portrayal of mental health. And then this happens. You don't just do that with a character like that. You can't, like Marvel has this problem where it's like one project, they're focusing on the heritage of mental health and then it just kind of gets dropped like a hot potato. And I realized they're not going to focus on it like the whole time. But like keeping that thread there somehow without like ruining it, is kind of an issue for Marvel. And I was disappointed they did this with Wanda and I, not entirely against them making her a villain, but the way they did it here just did not work.
Speaker 1 00:03:29 I have to agree with Julia here. I don't think it was a surprise. I just think the execution was so much worse than like I ever expected. I mean, that's not true. I was afraid that Michael Waldron would do this and I was correct in my assumptions of how he would do it, but like, I feel like there was a way to make Wanda become a villain after the end of Wanda vision. And I don't think that it was done in the right way in multiverse and madness because as Julia said, like you really dropped that thread about her mental health. Wanda Visions ends with her like accepting her losses and leaving Westview. And even Jack Schafer has like hammered it home in so many interviews after that show ended that Wanda accepted the loss of vision and her children, like, she made sure to say that Wanda's accepted like her grief.
Speaker 1 00:04:13 And so I understand why she would open the dark hole to find out more about her power, but then to turn her into like some psychotic murderer who's hell bent on finding her children after you've just watched an entire show about her accepting her grief. Like I don't think it's a ridiculous jump, but having it all happen off screen and then like again, like I really can't get behind what the dark hold did to her. Like there are multiple other characters in the M C U that we've seen that have been corrupted by the dark hold, but not a single one of them completely shifted like their entire personality like Wanda did. And so like to me, I just found that to be very like lazy and like honestly kind of just unfinished writing. 'cause it seems like Michael Waldron just didn't care about anything that Wanda went through in wa Vission. He just wanted her to be evil, so he just made her evil.
Speaker 2 00:05:03 Yeah. I wonder how much of it was like a, a decision on Marvel's part aside from Michael Waldron, and I wonder if this was really what they were a, like what Marvel themselves were aiming for. I think the problem is when you end w on Avi, on the note that you end up on with her accepting her, you know, accepting her grief and accepting that she can't be with, you know, her kids and vision. And she kind of puts that all behind her. I think Doc, you know, Dr. Strange and the multiverse managed kind of undoes it, it undoes it, it, it just kind of unravels everything that Wand Vission did. And I I, I understand why obviously 'cause the dark hole that corrupts it corrupted her. I think, um, they could have portrayed that a little bit better as more so the dark hold was corrupting her and this wasn't really what Wanda was intending and kind of seeing a back and forth between, you know, like an inner Wanda that's possessed by the dark hold almost. I think there could have been more of a, a contrast with that. Some people kind of just felt like it was Wanda herself who was being evil like this. And it wasn't so much like the dark hold was corrupting her because there was really no, there was no moment where we were like, oh, it's the dark hold corrupting her because nobody really even knows what like the dark hold is. You
Speaker 3 00:06:12 Know, I think that we had to stop and look at this from a mental health standpoint as well. You know, having worked in the field, we see people acceptance all the time. And what Wanda did at the end of Vission was an acceptance. She ran away once again with an evil book. She didn't really deal with any of the trauma. She just picked herself up and moved away. That's not acceptance, that's, that's avoidance. And she avoided having to deal deeply with these issues and she instead picked up a book that fed off of that. And I don't think that the mental health aspect of Wanda was really properly dealt with in either one of these projects. We just saw her become an addict in a way. We saw her feeding off of magic to get what she wanted without having to deal with repercussions, without having to actually accept what, what she did or the loss of her children or the loss of her parents, or the loss of her love. Like, there was none of, there was no real acceptance of any of this. It was just, let's run to the next town and continue the same, the same trajectory that we were going on anyways. But in a grander scale, th this to me, there was no real good mental health talk in either of these.
Speaker 1 00:07:24 See I think that's an interesting point because I don't think that Wanda leaving, I like, I disagree with your opinion that she didn't accept her grief and her loss. I think that obviously she does need to deal with it more. Like she has not even scratched the surface of what she needs to get through in regards to her trauma. But I think having to relive it with Agatha and then her letting like Westview go, like, I mean obviously she had to like, that's not up for discussion. What she did to Westview was messed up and she needed to let those people go. But like at the end of W Visions, she could have easily chose to just live in, she could have chose to just have a little hex over one house and live with vision and the kids in it forever. But she chose to kill them again and to say goodbye to them.
Speaker 1 00:08:03 And then like she says to Monica, like, yes, she's obviously avoiding the authorities, which I mean she has to, I think the argument that she should have stayed in Westview and answered for her crimes is extremely stupid because that's just not how like superhero things work. Like by that logic, Tony Stark should be in jail for creating Ultron. Um, so I think she was avoiding the authorities, but I think that personally Wanda Vision left her in a place of accepting her loss. And so honestly, I feel like the regression of Wanda's character arc began in that end credit, sorry, began in that end credit scene. I was very confused at that end credit scene when it happened in March, 2021. And I'm still confused by it to this day because the way that she leaves Westview like vowing to get ahold of her powers and deal with her trauma, that does not track at all with her opening the book of the damned like five minutes later in an end credit scene. And I feel like it feels painfully obvious that that end credit scene was only put in there to link to multiverse of madness', like backwards depiction of her. And again, it just, it's regressing the character. Like she goes through acceptance and letting the kids go in wand visions and then she just has to go through letting them go again in multiverse of madness. Except now she's killed a whole ton of people along the way in really, really messed up ways. I
Speaker 3 00:09:13 Think though that you're jumping a little bit here because you don't just like go through acceptance in one stage. You don't even go through it with one event. What happened was is she did let them go in that instance, but she didn't accept it. She didn't really have a choice. It was either that or start a war. And she still tried to many times in the finale keep the town there because of her family. She opened up the doors once they all went running and she closed them because vision was fading out even with the scene that happened. That was a nice wrap up scene. Wasn't true acceptance that was ex it was acceptance of the moment then, but not acceptance of letting them go or that hurting that tr or dealing with that trauma. And she never even actually promises to to, to process that trauma. She's just gonna find out how to control her powers, which she thought was in the dark hole. I think that like what I, I understand what you're saying, but I feel like you're ignoring some huge points here of the fact that her, her mental health has always suffered and they, she's never actually healed from it. Nobody's ever actually tried to help her in any instance and she just continues to perpetuate that mental health crisis over and over and over again.
Speaker 1 00:10:16 Yeah, I, I do. Yeah. So I totally agree with that point and like, I don't think she achieved full acceptance at the end of Avi. Like, yes, she let everybody go and I still think that that was like a much stronger decision than anyone making Multiverse Madness cares about because yeah, like I said, she could have chosen to just keep a hex on her house and stop hurting other people and still live in denial. So I think that it was a very strong like start of her acceptance to let them go. And then like, just based on the end of Wand, Avi, just the series, like ignoring that one end credit scene, like the series ends with her flying away to like deal with her trauma. Like that's clearly what's set up. And then in the end credit scene she randomly has a magic book.
Speaker 1 00:10:54 Like they don't even show how she got it. Like they don't even, like that's like, that's kind of the thing about the Dark hold and Wanda, I get that it corrupts her. It just seems like such a stupid decision to have it corrupt her in the first place. And it just, it makes this disconnect for me between Wand Visions and Multiverse of Madness because I feel like she wanted to process the trauma and deal with her mental health when she flew away from Westview and then again starting in that end credit scene, they were just like, oh haha, no, like you're gonna be hurting more people and like a year on the big screen. And I just, I don't like that. Yeah,
Speaker 4 00:11:26 Yeah. Michael Walter told me in my interview with him, yes ha ha he told me that he didn't see Wanda as being healed in Westview. So that's why he saw this as the next step he saw. He, he was like, she realized she had to let the people go, but she wasn't ready to deal with her briefly. But like what was the whole speech to vision then?
Speaker 3 00:11:47 I was just wondering, Julie, what speech were you talking about? Because I remember the one where speech, where Vision was talking to her
Speaker 4 00:11:52 When they're both talking and she's like, you're my love, you're my, well my sadness when he is gonna disappear.
Speaker 3 00:11:57 Okay. You know, I think that a lot of the times though too, when we, even when we accept like someone's moving on, like when someone dies in real life, we say those nice things and that's, that's a great thing, but we're still left with our sadness on the other side and that's really what was not dealt with. And I, I'm glad that, you know, Waldron said that because I, I feel the same way that there just wasn't, there wasn't true healing or acceptance or anything like that. There was just a empty hole that she filled with an evil magic. And I think that's really the, where we started off with Wanda here and I was okay with that.
Speaker 1 00:12:26 So Brian, do you think that, like, do you think that multiverse of madness regresses Wanda's character in that she has to deal with the acceptance or like the loss of her children twice because, 'cause she loses her children in Wanda Visions and then I thought that would start her on a path to acceptance and it, and like by your argument it wasn't a path to acceptance. Um, and then she like loses her children again like at the end of Multiverse Matic. So rather she realized that she can't have them and that she just like kills herself. Like it just, it doesn't seem to be a progression for the character. It just seems to be repeating the same steps. And that's a problem I have with Wanda in film specifically. 'cause I feel like Wanda Visions is the only time she was allowed to progress as a character where she was allowed to move beyond just being like the girl in the corner who they bring out for like one fight every movie. 'cause that's what the Russos reduced her to. And so I honestly just don't think that maybe it's the fact that it's men writing Wanda in the movies or maybe it's the fact that you only have two hours in a movie. But the thing that annoys me the most about Multiverse, Manis is just that after progressing her character so strongly on tv, they just like do that.
Speaker 3 00:13:34 I will just say, and I know we gotta move on to the next topic and stuff, but I feel that it was not a regression because we're in the same stage and when we deal with people who are, who are addicts, and to me she has all the telltale signs of being an addict. It is a continuous cycle until you decide to break it or until you're forced to break it. And so I think for the first moment, this moment of clarity at the very end is the beginning of the actual growth that we're gonna see for Wanda if we see her again. I think that that we'll see her again. And how much I could say Julie, no, I'm just kidding. <laugh>. Uh, yeah, and no, I totally feel like we're gonna see her very, very soon in the next couple of years. But uh, that's when you're gonna really see her grow and accept things. This was just the final chapter to that, to that attic story.
Speaker 2 00:14:16 Yeah, like I think an important point is like, this is obviously not the end of Wanda's story, although it kind of feels like a, like it's not even the culmination of her story with her kids. I don't even think like it's more, I think there'll be a lot more clarity on this movie in the future, uh, like after Wanda's next appearance. 'cause obviously they're gonna bring her kids like into the, into the M C U. I mean I, one way or another, you know, Billy and Tommy are gonna be in the M C U and I would assume that, you know, Wanda will have a part in that. And I think after that takes place and after this whole story kind of wraps up, I think there'll be a little more clarity on this movie and it'll kind of feel like a, in like a stepping point in the progression of, of Wanda's arc. You know, it's like her rock bottom I would say. And then I think, you know, obviously in the future, <laugh>, if she stumbles again, you know, then it's like after this movie her arc will probably be trending in a different direction. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:15:05 Like Wanda's Arc feels very like zigzaggy to me because like she did bad things in Age of Ultron, then she became a member of The Avengers, then she didn't really do anything for like three movies. Um, like I really hate what the Russos did to her. Like they didn't even let her use Mind Control. The writers admitted in some interview that I read in like 2016, they were like, yeah, we don't let her use Mind Control because like, we don't know how to deal with like that power 'cause like, she's too powerful so we just don't let it happen. So she didn't really like do that much. Like even in Infinity War they did the whole thing with vision, but all of that development was off screen. So I know when Infinity War came out, like all of my friends were like, why do I care about Scarlet Witch and her robot boyfriend?
Speaker 1 00:15:43 And so like, again, like that's where my angers coming from, that Wanda vision, like actually like gave her an arc. And then I feel like Multiverse Madness is just like, like it feels like two steps forward, one step back kind of thing to me. Um, but I do agree, like I think that this is where rock bottom, I think that from now, like, like Brian said, like, we're gonna move out of this phase and then we're gonna like advance to whatever's next. And so on that topic, let's move on to our next topic. Um, this is gonna be a little bit of a long setup, but I wanna know what you guys think about the writing in multiverse and madness overall. 'cause from our discussions about Wanda, you can tell that I think the writing was kind of messy. Like I said, I think it was lazy.
Speaker 1 00:16:18 I think there were really confusing choices. Um, I didn't like, I feel like there was very little distinction in the magic, like between witchcraft and sorcery that they didn't get into even Wanda. Like everyone keeps calling her the Scarlet Witch. She's the most powerful being in the universe and no one ever like wants to explain why. And like no one caress why. And then there was even stuff like Vision and Pietro weren't even like, like Vision was mentioned once, barely at the start of the movie. But like, they weren't mentioned, they weren't in the multiverse. Dr. Strange was suddenly like unable to find happiness without his ex-girlfriend who's getting married to some other man. So like what did you guys think about all of that? Like did you like the character choices that they made in this movie? Like beyond Wanda? Um,
Speaker 4 00:16:56 I think Strange's Arc was good. I think the writing in general, especially the dialogue was kind of lazy, which surprised me because this is the same guy who was credited for the first and last episodes of Loki. And those had like amazing dialogue and like this was like what to do and compared to that, um, so yeah, I, and the you make a good point about the magic not being like, like it all just felt the same and I don't know, yeah, it felt lazy, especially compared to other stuff. Maybe he's better at TV 'cause he's done great with like Rick and Morty from what I've heard as well. Um, but yeah, this was kind of surprisingly weak.
Speaker 2 00:17:30 Yeah, the third act was where my problems, I start to get problems with this movie. I think it was very, the third act was really weak. Probably one of the weaker m c u third acts. I think what they did was they put such, uh, when you commit to making Wanda the most powerful person in existence, it puts a very fine line on what you can do with that character. And that kind of shows in the third act with how there was nothing that they could really do in the third act. There was no, there was nothing to combat Wanda. You know, like you, you have a zombie strange show up with his, in his zombie form, you know, after he's reading the Dark Hold and he's got the, you know, the, the Souls of the Damned and he is got, and he's controlling them and he kind of shows up and they do like this one little move on Wanda, where they trap her in like this magical thingy, magical contraption.
Speaker 2 00:18:19 And then she breaks out and then they kind of just give up and they're like, well we have to take America's power now. We just tried this, this doesn't work. So our only other option is to take America's power. And then it just kind of feels like a little lazy. And then you have America realize her potential, which I'm happy about because like I feel like that's where the, it needed to go. But it's clear that America's power can't exactly match up with Wanda's power. So, uh, the, the one thing that I did like about the third act is I think the stuff with her kids, they put such a limit on what they can do with the action with Wanda because Wanda's so unstoppable that the only way to beat her was mentally was to show her her, like what she looks like to her kids.
Speaker 2 00:18:56 And I think when they committed to making Wanda Unstoppable, that was the only kind of thing that could stop Wanda was her kids, which I appreciate. But at the same time, I think when you put such a, when you commit to making Wanda unstoppable with everybody, it puts a a very fine limit on what you can do with the character. 'cause now it's like, is Wanda still the most powerful person in the world? She can literally snap her finger and destroy anything. So it's like, like how was she stronger than the Infinity Stones? Like was it just like, and is she gonna be stronger than like Kang in the future? Like what? I'm just, I think when, when you commit to making Wanda like, you know, the Scarlet Witch, when you commit to making her unstoppable in any form, it it really does on the character.
Speaker 3 00:19:39 I think that for me, the re writing wasn't, I wasn't mad at the writing. I didn't really have a problem with it. But the one thing that came with the story that I, I felt was a little odd was the fact that it felt like they didn't know if they wanted this to be a larger than life story or a very intimate story. You know, every Marvel we had something different, like, and man felt very intimate. It was kind of small. It didn't extend to the wider world. And for some of this movie, you know, you have the multiverse and you're going to see, you know, the Illuminati and all these different worlds. But at the end it ended up being this really intimate story of trying to appeal to the emotional side of Wanda or like the wa the Wanda inside the Scarlet Witch.
Speaker 3 00:20:18 And like that felt maybe a little disappointing compared to the, the first and second act because those felt so grand, but they also kept bouncing back and forth. You know, I think that was one of the big things that kind of stuck out to me. I wanted them to like, like pick a, pick a story. Do we want something very intimate or do we want something endgame style that's really huge, really big. And it was a lot of changing in that aspect to fit into a two hour movie. I also feel like you could feel the fact that there was a lot cut from this film, which I know is not about the writing, but I feel like when you start to cut things, if the writings, the writing suffers because of that, we have a problem. And I think that was definitely something that we, we, that should have been figured out a little bit better.
Speaker 1 00:20:58 Brian, I love what you said about how the movie feels like it's trying to be two things at once, because that is another one of my issues with this movie. I don't mind the fact that in the end it was a more intimate story that doesn't make me mad. Like I, I would love that. But I feel like, and I don't know how many other people feel like this, but I know that some of my friends did when I finished Multiverse Madness, I did not feel satisfied. It did not feel like a good multiverse movie, but it also didn't feel like a good strange and Wanda movie to me. 'cause I don't, I did not like either of their character arcs. Well, I mean, I didn't hate them, but I just, I have issues with them that I can't get past. Um, so, so they aren't good to me.
Speaker 1 00:21:34 Like they aren't terrible, but they aren't good either. And yeah, I just, I feel like it kept bouncing between trying to be grand and trying to be intimate. And the other thing is the marketing for this movie, when everything was coming out, it was like, like really, really hype. But in retrospect, I think the marketing for this movie was horrible because they sold it as like this event. I feel like they sold it as like a multiverse event. And I mean, the movie's literally called Multiverse of Madness. And I watched Grace Randolph's spoiler review on this movie, and I think she brought up an excellent point. She said that in with the entire multiverse at his disposal, the craziest thing that Michael Waldron could think of was that Cars drive when the light is red instead of the light is green. And that really sums up the movie for me, like for a movie called Multiverse of Madness. I don't think it lived up to its title. I don't think there was any madness here. They went to two universes for an extended period of time, and in one of them they just sat in one room. So I just, I didn't think that that was like, done really well.
Speaker 4 00:22:31 He was saying there's a reason for that though, so we could really feel like it was a real place, which I get. I mean, I did wanna see more though. Again, I think the movie should have been a little longer so we can get to see more.
Speaker 3 00:22:40 I mean, were you not impressed with the paint world or with pizza balls? I mean like five seconds. Those
Speaker 2 00:22:45 Were great. I mean, I want some pizza balls. I like pizza balls. Yeah, I want some pizza balls. I think, yeah, it was a little bit short on the multiverse stuff. It was definitely mad. There was a lot of madness. It was, it was good. I just, I don't know, I feel like I usually, it usually takes me like a week or two to make up my feelings, but I still am kind of processing my feelings on it. I just know that, I think it probably did need to be a little bit longer when you're making a Multiverse of Madness movie and you bring in the Illuminati that has, and you're introducing Professor X, you know, Reed Richards, Mr. Fantastic Black Bolt, and you're putting Captain Carter in here. Like, there's just a lot that's going on in this movie. And you have like, what four, there was four different stranges in this movie, you know, two different variants of Wanda.
Speaker 2 00:23:30 And then you're introducing America Chavez and, and you're dealing with the Dark hold and the book of Ashanti. Like, I feel like the plot was building towards the book of Ashanti and that was a total waste of time to just destroy it. And like, I get that it's a plot twist, but it just felt like a total waste of time. But they just, I don't know, I I I would've, I I feel like if you could've, if they could've incorporated the book of Ashanti a little bit more with like Dr. Strange, I think in the third act would've benefited having kind of like a, a dual of a dual of magic between Dr. Strange, you know, having Dr. Strange with the book of Ashanti and having Wanda with the dark hold and seeing, like, just seeing the craziness of like what's in the book of Ashanti and what's in the craziness of the dark hold and them throwing whatever they can at each other because you know, like we, the, the Book of Ashanti is the anti anti antithesis of, of the dark hold. And I just thought it would've been, I feel like that would've been such a good idea for the third act. I just, I don't know, there was just too much, the movie needed to be a little bit longer and there was obviously a couple, a couple of plot decisions that just didn't land for me.
Speaker 1 00:24:34 Yeah, I really, I could not get behind the books. Um, like I liked the Dark hold, but they just, they did not go into it enough for me. And like, I hope they go into it in the future. But with them all destroyed now, I don't see the point. But like to me, like, uh, a copy of the Dark hold existing in every universe. Great, that makes sense to me. The dark hold, being able to be destroyed with one stab, even if it's from a magic dagger that I thought was super dumb. Then the book of ti There're only being one in the entire multiverse was really weird to me because you're telling me that this one magic book is supposed to be the antithesis to like an infinite number of evil books. That was just like a dumb concept in my opinion. And then again, like it was just burned up in a second by Wanda.
Speaker 1 00:25:15 And I know that Wanda is a scarlet witch and she's the most powerful. So maybe only she could have destroyed it. But yeah, like Drew said, it just felt like a massive waste of time. And as someone watching these movies, it didn't even feel like a plot twist to me. It just felt like a waste of time. And I was like, why am I, why have I been sitting here watching you go after this book if it, if like, it's basically just like, it is just like any other like paper book. Like you just run it under a tap and it's destroyed. Like I thought this was supposed to be important. I
Speaker 3 00:25:42 Don't think that the book's necessarily, I was expect, I guess I was expecting the dark hold to be around a little bit longer. And I still have thoughts on the fact that it's gonna come back in a big way, especially with Ghost writer and vampires being introduced into the, into the world. But I mean, the book of Ashanti was the McGuffin of the, of the, of the movie. And that was, that's what moved the story forward. So that made sense to me. It was a pot ice. Yeah, sure. Maybe it was lazy, but they needed something to chase. After the stabbing of the book though, I actually did like of the Dark Holes and I'm, I'm gonna stand by that because it gave me some Chamber of Secrets vibes from Harry Potter. It reminded me of the book from The Evil Dead, which is another saying Rainey film.
Speaker 3 00:26:21 I was okay with that. I mean, in the original Evil Dead, the book is thrown into the fire, this book of all evil thrown to the fire and it burns. And then a little bit later on, I forget which movie it was in there, it just falls apart because it turns the dust and falls apart and release Unleashes Evil onto Earth. Like that is some of the, I don't know, that was very same ey and I didn't hate that. I thought it was a cool little callback to maybe some films that have been through that, that we've seen in cinema and the way that they use books. So I was okay with, with all of those
Speaker 2 00:26:52 Theory, the Dark Hold is a hor crooks.
Speaker 1 00:26:54 It did give me chamber of secrets vibes when it was destroyed. Um, like I liked the moment where it was destroyed. I just thought it was really dumb that all you have to do is stab like the book of all evil and then okay, bye. But, but about like the book of Ashanti being like a McGuffin driving the plot forward again, I just think that's lazy writing because what was driving the plot forward was them visiting alternate strangers to find the book. You don't need the book. Why not just have them find alternate strangers? Because they know that alternate stranges know magic and they probably want to help out their multiverse counterpart. Like I feel like the book is just an unnecessary thing to tack onto it and then for it to not matter at all in the end. Again, it's not something that like ruins the movie for me, but I just, I do find it irritating and I do find it to be a waste of time.
Speaker 1 00:27:40 Although in that same vein, I think that that was a lot like Wand Vission because there are certain things in Wand Vission that while I didn't personally care about it, going back to like, if we want to rehash like the, the Ralph Boner like pH reveal, I didn't care about that. I know a lot of other people were upset about it, but the thing that stuck to me about that was that it was just a waste of everybody's time. Like if that character wasn't gonna be important, there was no reason to drag out the reveal for like four weeks and that's what like caused like fan anger. And so that's what the Book of Ashanti stuff reminded me of. Like, you don't need it to drive the plot forward. Strange can just want to find alternate versions of himself without the need for like some random all powerful magical book that's not gonna do anything for you.
Speaker 2 00:28:19 So I think the book of Ashanti could have been introducing it in the beginning. It's like, oh, the book of Ashanti, it's the book we need, like it's gonna save the day. And then it becomes kind of obvious. It's like, well like, you know, it can't be that easy. So then it gets to the point where it's like, well are they really gonna use the book of Ashanti when they find it? Like what's the, what's the real like twist here? I think you could have introduced it in a different way, you know, I don't know exactly, but I, I just wish, you know, when you, when you have a book that's the antithesis of the dark hold, it just was such a missed opportunity to have. Like, and not only that it like, you know, you're dealing with movie, movie about sorcerers and witches and, and like two books that are like the two most powerful books in the world, but the most like powerful spells and stuff like that.
Speaker 2 00:29:06 And, you know, it would've been really, it would've been a great moment to see those kind of collide. And I just feel like that was a, and I, I get that it was a plot device, like I'm over that I understand. I just think it was a, like, it just was the wrong move and I get that it, it drove the plot forward, but it almost like there's a points in the movie where I just completely forgot about it and I, they got to it and I was like, oh, they're here. And then he picks it up for a second and then it's gone and you just kind of move forward. So it's like, it kind of sets it up like it's important and then you kind of forget about it and then you get back to it and you remember how important it was and it just disappears and then you move on to something else. So it just, just, it just felt a little bit messy to me. I mean, I don't hate the movie. Like, I feel like <laugh> we, we've kind of like, you know, talked about a lot of the bad things. Like I don't, I don't hate the movie. I think the second act was like really well done. Like I love the Illuminati stuff. I'm just, you know, like I, I love uh, I love like the introduction of all of 'em, but there is some parts that got really messy.
Speaker 3 00:30:00 Something though that I want to, I want to kind of say though about Uday. You said about making a movie where he's going to find other strangers and there's lots of other strangers on the multiverse. That film also s sounds like that'd be really boring though. Continuing to go to a different world. Find the strange, getting that stranger team up with you or not getting them team up with you going to the next world. Like this is a groundhog day kind of situation. I think people got really exhausted with a film like that where this way you have one plot thing that's kind of carrying it forward and that's making, yeah, it's taking you through these other worlds, but you're not wasting time doing the same thing over and over again. And people be getting mad about that.
Speaker 1 00:30:37 I didn't mean that you should waste time going to a bunch of different worlds. It's just that like in this movie they fall into 8 3 8 and go find and go to the sanctum because they want the book of Ashanti. You don't need that writer, you don't need the book. They can fall into 8 3 8 and go find another strange because he would help them. And it's the same thing when they fall into like sinister strange's world, like the decaying one. They go find him because they want the dark hold now. Cool. But like why can't they just go find them because they're Doctor Strange, because there's magic in the sanctum. Like I just, I think the book was an unnecessary thing to tack on. I'm not saying that they should have gone to like 80 different sanctums, like just go to those two sanctums, but it's just like the book being like added onto it.
Speaker 1 00:31:18 I just think it was again like, just kind of messy and unnecessary. 'cause also with all the Illuminati stuff I forgot about the book of Shanti for like a solid like chunk of that. Like I know the, the, the Illuminati we're talking about it and like they used it to defeat their Thanos, but like the fight with Wanda and everything, like I could not care less about the book of Ashanti for like a solid little chunk of that movie. So moving on to the Illuminati, what did you guys think of those cameos? Because I thought that they were a lot of fun, but when looking at the movie as a whole, like they do seem just a little bit like out of place. Like going back to Brian's comment about the Illuminati made it seem like this grand thing and then everything else seems a lot smaller.
Speaker 2 00:31:54 I loved it. Like I, I, I really liked the Illuminati. Like I, I just liked the concept of the Illuminati. It's really cool. I've been waiting for like cool multi universal stuff like that and like, you know, like I obviously I I I always set myself up for disappointment, hoping for too much. And like, I do wish there was a little bit more to the Illuminati. I'm really glad that they, you know, like obviously I don't, I don't think it it, the Illuminati started out. It doesn't seem like when they were first shooting that Black Bolt or Fanta or Mr. Fantastic was in were involved and it seems like they kind of added them through reshoots and I'm kind of glad that it became more comic accurate. It, it was cool to see all these new characters like Professor X and, and Reid Richards and, and Black Bolt and seeing Captain Carter in Live, live action.
Speaker 2 00:32:39 I think that was really cool. And like I, I hope that we, I hope we can see another version of like the Illuminati. I really liked the story of the Illuminati. I wish we could have seen a little bit more of it. I liked the whole Supreme strange thing and like, you know, how he was corrupted through the dark hole and they had to kill him and stuff. And I just thought that was a really cool kind of like, it didn't take away too much from the movie yet. I think it actually served a decent purpose for the movie. It taught us about incursions and what can happen and the dangers of that. And that's obviously gonna, that's obviously gonna play into Secret Wars a lot. Um, on top of that, you know, like it led strange to the book of Ashanti. Like, it, it kind of, it didn't feel to me it didn't feel super outta place.
Speaker 2 00:33:17 I mean I'm sure for some people it did. Yeah, it was a cameo. But I also feel like it fit well into the story. Like it just made sense like, you're gonna get to another universe like the multiverse, you're gonna travel the multiverse, you're gonna get to another universe. If you don't run into any Avengers, like any Avengers like team, it just is not gonna feel normal. Like it just made sense that they were gonna encounter the Illuminati eventually. And I think the way that, the way that it was done was good enough for me. I was content with that.
Speaker 3 00:33:45 I loved the new Illuminati. You mean I got to see Anson Mount again as Black Bolts. And for those who don't know, I'm a huge in humans fan. I am probably the only person that went and saw the inhuman in IMAX for the first two episodes. I'm also probably the only person that actually finished the series as well. But uh,
Speaker 1 00:34:02 I saw it in imax.
Speaker 3 00:34:04 Oh see look at, thank you. And
Speaker 1 00:34:06 I watched the whole show. I thought it was pretty bad, but I mean, I didn't
Speaker 3 00:34:09 See, I didn't think it was bad, but I thought it could've been better. Um, and humans are always one of my favorites and I just loved seeing him back as it because I thought he was a highlight of the show. So getting to see him once again in this back bolt and I hope that he comes back once again for our in humans. But like getting to see Mr. Fantastic in our play box, you know, our sandbox, he wasn't there before. And getting to see Pro Professor X in a way that we haven't seen him interact with other characters from, you know, the M C U. So like these felt like huge moments and getting to see, uh, hay Atwell again. I was, it was amazing. I was blown away by having, even though I, you know, had rumors, heard rumors that I was coming and kind of knew what to expect. This is exactly what I wanted out of this film. And getting to see the Illuminati back in it's, getting to see the Illuminati in action was one of the best parts of this film for me. I was so excited.
Speaker 1 00:35:02 I really loved the Illuminati stuff. Like, I do think like some of the cameos, like were not like necessarily out of place. I feel like they just pulled you out a little bit of the movie. 'cause I feel like for a few minutes you just get so excited at Inhuman and Xmen and the Fantastic Four interacting with Avengers characters. Um, not that that's a bad thing, but I, I feel like the, the energy that I got like during the Illuminati's fight with Wanda, like that was the energy I had been missing for the whole movie. And like, no it's not. 'cause I wanted more cameos. Like everyone's making fun of people on Twitter for just wanting more cameos. Um, I just, I don't know what it is, but like that energy, like that fight, uh, maybe it was just the music, but like that's like, that was like when my enjoyment of the movie peaked I think.
Speaker 1 00:35:42 And I love the way Wanda killed them. Um, again, I don't really support it. I have, I have many, many problems with what Wanda did to the Illuminati actually, but like the, the Brutalness and like the Shockingness and the bloodiness of it for a Marvel movie, um, it was just really, really good to me. But I do want to ask you guys, like, there's a lot of conversations. I I believe Michael Waldron has said this, that like cameos should serve the story. Like it doesn't like, like what sense does it make for someone to show up that like, doesn't have like a connection to like our characters? I think that obviously there were some characters that showed up that like didn't have a connection to Strange, um, like Xavier, like Professor X, but I mean he made a little connection with Strange, you know, like he told him where to find the book and everything.
Speaker 1 00:36:27 But one thing that really bothered me, like a missed opportunity that really bothered me was that Monica's mother was on the Illuminati in this world. And Monica is the only person in the M C U who has ever tried to help Wanda to any like significant degree. And so I feel like it was a huge missed opportunity to have Wanda kill her mother and then not care, like to not even feel guilty to not even like introspect a little bit, to not even like confront the fact that the only person who tried to help her in her entire life, like she just killed an alternate universe version of their mom. I feel like that was just insanely like, it was, I thought it was insane how they didn't do anything with that.
Speaker 2 00:37:03 I don't even think Wanda really cared, to be honest. I think that was kind of like the point. I don't even, I mean, you know, Mordo ever said her name <laugh> did. I don't, did did Mordo. She, he just said Captain Carter or Captain Marvel, right. He never said Maria Rambo. Like for all
Speaker 1 00:37:17 We know. No, but I mean like, that's also like, kind of my problem. Like that Wanda didn't care. 'cause like even Reid is like, I have a family and that gave us the best line in the movie when Wanda's like, is their mother alive? And then like, good, then there'll be someone left to raise them. Like that line was like crazy. But again, like Wanda's whole thing in this movie is that she's a mother that wants her children, yet she's extremely comfortable with like callously murdering and like breaking up other people's families that again just like does not feel right in any way to me even considering that she's been corrupted by the dark hold.
Speaker 2 00:37:46 Yeah, that was a little bit weird. I I didn't exactly love that. I mean the what the Whattt mouth, you know, line was awesome, obviously that was great. I loved that. You know, even if it was killing black bolts, I, I I still loved it. I thought that was great. But yeah, like I didn't love like the, it just felt like a very weird, it, it was just weird that like she was willing to kill someone with a family when all she, like, when she wanted to get to her family. I don't know, it just, it was weird. But I mean, other than that, in terms of like cameos, I think Marvel has dedicated cameos now to serving the story. I don't think you're gonna see a mindless cameo for no reason other than Bruce Campbell playing Pizza Papa. Other than that, I don't think you're gonna see any kind of mindless cameo for no reason.
Speaker 2 00:38:28 You know, especially in Secret Wars. I think Secret Wars, the, the people that you see will serve the story. I don't think Marvel is going to, I think Marvel knows that it would be super sloppy and just kind of unprofessional to just throw cameos in there for the sake of it. I think they, they, what they did with the Illuminati was pretty well written. I think that was the most well written part of the movie. I think the second act, the stuff with the Illuminati and the Earth 8 3 8, that was my favorite part of the movie. I mean, I really did enjoy the second act. Um, and I really enjoyed how much, how much the Illuminati was incorporated into the story. Not just so much to serve stranger's story, but to serve the story of what the dark hole does to somebody. That it corrupted strain and, and that it went so far that he destroyed an entire universe through an an incursion and then they had to kill him.
Speaker 2 00:39:14 I think that really kind of, it gave us a good look at like, you know, what the Dark hole does with somebody. And I wasn't expecting that honestly. And that was a really nice, like, surprise was that, you know, we saw them all on Titan after they just fought Thanos and stuff. And it like, I almost wanna see more of that. I almost wanna see like a what if episode about that because I think it would be really interesting. Um, but other than that, like yeah, I mean I I love that we got, you know, we got Reed Richards and, and Professor X and Black Bolt and Captain Carter and Live Action. We got that all like in like a multiverse team. I, I just think that's really cool. And I think, I hope that, you know, Marvel will learn that doing cameos that serve the story specifically, you know, and like for the story and making sure they really do move the story forward and serve the story. I think they will continue to do cameos in that sense. And I think you're <laugh> you're gonna see cameos like more often, you know, like, like sooner than people think. You know, not necessarily multiverse cameos, but like just cameos from, you know, people appearing from one show and appearing in another show. Like, but yeah, I think overall I think Marvel has learned that when you're doing cameos, they have to serve the story.
Speaker 3 00:40:21 So Julie, I'm trying to remember, did in your interview with Waldron, did you talk about the cameos? Um,
Speaker 4 00:40:27 Just kind of, um, I asked him how the illuminati the uh, the Illuminati, that's what set I was writing for the Illuminati was chosen. Um, he said they got exactly who they wanted. Now in some other interviews he's saying we tried to get Tom Cruise and whatever. So I don't know how true that is, but he's like, we, we got pretty much exactly who we wanted. So that's what he told me. And yeah, that's all we really said about the Campos.
Speaker 2 00:40:52 But meanwhile they just published a story about Daniel Craig <laugh>, like
Speaker 4 00:40:57 I know, well maybe character was not who they wanted.
Speaker 2 00:40:59 So what I'm like, what I think multiple, I think what we're hearing now is I don't think Daniel Craig was ever gonna play Mr. Fantastic. I think he was, he was supposed to play Balder and I think that's why for so long we didn't know who, you know, balder the brave who played him. Because you know, like before the movie comes out you hear who's playing who, you know. We, for a long time, I think, you know, there've been a couple of leaks about John Krasinski. There'd been some leaks about Black Polt and you know, we knew like Captain Carter and Professor X and and Captain Marvel, we knew those people were gonna be on the team. I just remember for a long time, like we didn't know who Balder the brave was. Like w uh, we didn't know what actor, we didn't know what actor, like who who was playing Balder The Brave. And um, I guess there must not have been an actor on set for him. I mean, I wonder if they just shot with a stand-in and then kind of cut that out 'cause they couldn't get Daniel Craig. Yeah, I mean, so I'm wondering, you know, like, I wonder about that
Speaker 1 00:41:53 Also, honestly, like I'm sure, I'm sure like with with Press for movies, there's no way they're gonna be completely honest. Like, I feel like there's no way that, like I was honestly surprised that he said the thing about Tom Cruise, because even just thinking back to Elizabeth Olsson, she never said anything like during Infinity War, during Endgame or she didn't do Press for Endgame, but like Press for Civil War and Infinity War. She didn't say anything about like not liking what they were doing with her character. And then come Wand Vission, she's like, well for so many years I couldn't do anything and I was unhappy and I had no ownership and they wouldn't let me like do this stuff. So I feel like you really have to dance around stuff like when you're currently promoting a movie and then afterwards like you'll start to find out a little bit more of the truth.
Speaker 2 00:42:35 Well, yeah, I mean it probably has to do with like contracts and stuff. Like, you know, if you're actively in contracts with somebody, you can't be like, oh, that fell through for that. Like, it, that's gonna be like up to the trades to report that. But I think there's the scene where you have the Illuminati, they right after they show up with like to fight Wanda, they're all standing there and you can tell that there's somebody missing on the right side. Like there's, they're all kind of standing in formation and there's just this gaping hole in the formation and you're like, that very clearly looks like somebody has been cut out of that shot and you don't know, you know what I mean? We don't know who it is. So I wonder they just didn't, I I I wonder if they all shot that scene differently and they had plans for somebody to be in that one slot that was missing and then they couldn't like it, it kind of seems like, you know, two reshoots, they put, you know, black Bolt and, and Mr. Fantastic in there. And I just wonder they must not have been able to get everybody together on set at the same time.
Speaker 1 00:43:27 Yeah, no, everyone wasn't there. 'cause Elizabeth Olson has done video interviews in the last couple of days and she said that she filmed against stand-ins for like all of it I think. And then she refiled with like a couple people maybe, but she said she only met half the Illuminati and it's clear which half she met, like only the two captains were in the room together. I think that's why they got the fight. 'cause I wanted Reid to put up more of a fight than he did. Yes. But it's, it's really obvious from the fact that Captain Carter and Captain Marvel were the only two people actually fighting Wanda. And then Elizabeth Olsson just did that lie detector test for Vanity Fair where she said she's never met John Krasinski and the interviewer's like you guys are in a movie together. And she's like, well like that's news to me. I think it's super obvious that they filmed it like that and to some degree I understand why they do that. There's conflicting schedules and everything. But also like that's really strange to me that like, like that like you can cut and rearrange things to that extent that like the actors don't even know what characters they're going up against. Like that's just crazy.
Speaker 2 00:44:26 Yeah, I mean we had kind of heard for a while that everything with like the Illuminati was kind of up in the air for a while. Like it kind of seems like there was some people that probably could have been in the Illuminati that weren't, there was probably a bunch of people that they talked about that just weren't able, they weren't able to put it together. Probably 'cause of time constraint and 'cause of Covid. I mean obviously we see Daniel, Daniel Craig couldn't do it 'cause of Covid, you know, I wonder how many other people they were trying to get that they just, it just couldn't 'cause of, you know, time constraints and filming. I mean they obviously they said Tom Cruise, you know, they couldn't do it 'cause of filming and stuff like that 'cause he was doing Mission Impossible but they were able to get Haley Outwell.
Speaker 2 00:45:02 I just wonder like, you know, between contracts and then actually getting people there and getting him in costume and like getting all the actors together, it's probably a lot of work to do that just for like such a short amount of time in the film. And in terms of like money and stuff, I feel like they have more years now to plan like Secret Wars and like, you know, secret Wars and other multiverse movies if they're gonna do stuff like that. I think they did the best they could with the Illuminati, but it was very, very obvious that Black Bolt and Mr. Fantastic were not there. Like, it, it's very clear that that why, you know, Wanda only fought Captain Carter and only fought Captain Marvel. I really wonder if like even Captain Marvel was there 'cause it, it was a very c g I shot. You never really saw them face to face. Meanwhile, you know, captain Carter and Wanda, you see them fighting each other. So I just really wonder like, like who was on set with who and when and like what green screen it, this probably was, there was probably a lot of, a lot of like changes that went on.
Speaker 1 00:45:56 I, I think she did meet Ana Lynch because I know, so the lie detector test thing revealed that she didn't meet John Prezinski and then she said she's never like worked with Patrick Stewart. So I think that like she only met Hailey Atwell and Lashawna Lynch and then I'd assumed that also Black Bolt, she never met him because of how quick his death was. I think America Chavez was a standout character in this movie. I thought Sochi Gomez did an amazing job bringing her to life. There have been many changes to her character, but I mean I thought that she was a really strong part of the movie. What did you guys think about her?
Speaker 4 00:46:25 I think how she started, like I know in the comics she's known as being very confident everything and she was not this and this movie. I see this as her origin story of becoming that person and I think the ending, like I know a lot of people complaining about the cheesiness at the ending, but I think her learning too, control her powers and stuff was great. I love that she was the one who came up with the solution for Wanda and she took her to herself and I thought it was awesome. Um, I've learned Sochi Gomez from Babysitter Club as well, so I was excited to see her kill this and she did. The only disappointment is that they didn't explicitly acknowledge that she was gay because they had the pin, but that's it. They mentioned her mom's, but not that. So hopefully they do that in the future. But yeah, I think this was a good start for her and I love her relationship with Dr. Strange. I just think it was great.
Speaker 2 00:47:05 Yeah, I thought she did a great job too. Like I really think that they nailed that casting. She has so much personality, like she's just such a, like a standout. Like I she brought such personality to the movie. I think Wanda and Strange kind of dreary characters and like, you know, even Wong too sometimes I think America brought like a lot of like light to the movie and a lot of, I think she really was such a, like a driving factor of strangest character arc in this movie and, and, and kind of made, you know, kind of give strange like a reality check. You know, like he, she really, it kind of felt like she was one of the main driving points of this character arc in the movie and, and kind of like almost helped him open up a little bit more. And like, I feel like without America we wouldn't have seen like the arc that Strange went through and like kind of, you know, between, between America and Christine. I don't think like, you know, like I think America was kind of responsible for getting strange to that point where he feels like he could be honest with a different version of Christine. And I think, you know, like not only was America a driving point for uh, strange, she was a driving point for the movie and I really appreciated how like she was given so much time and her story was she really kind of felt like one of the main characters in the movie and she wasn't just kind of like a plot device.
Speaker 3 00:48:16 I think that one of the things that I love the most about America as well as introducing a lot of this younger generation is how strategically Marvel's doing it. Because we're seeing a piece here or a character here, you know, we got, we have Kate and Hawkeye and we have America in fact Change two and we have, uh, Tommy and Billy and Wanda Visions and you're starting to see this, this new generation of heroes coming through, but the threads are being pulled from every, from all different kinds of, you know, the old the old guard. And so I think that's really interesting because it allows you to, it allows you to connect a little bit more. You know, it's not just like a, oh here's a, a Young Avengers project, they're already all, they just find each other, you know, it's not like the runaways where it felt like all these kids are just getting together and going, but like you're seeing them come from these different avenues of the Marvel cinematic universe and then eventually they're gonna be tied together. And that's like this really exciting aspect. As for America, she was phenomenal and in this movie she was funny. She had, you know, watching her go from being not confident to the perfect amount of confidence and getting to see her channel, her powers. And there were, I I I couldn't, I can't say anything wrong about her. She was, she was fantastic.
Speaker 1 00:49:32 Yeah, I loved America as well. Like your comment, your guys' comments about her personality, like that really shone through. And again, and Sochi Gomez seems like she just has like such a wonderful personality in real life. Like from, you know, like the tos and like the b t s stuff that she posts, even just like her on like the red carpet with like Elizabeth Olsson and um, Victoria Alonso, like one of the executive producers at Marvel Studios. I think that she's gonna have a very bright future in the M C U. I can easily see America Chavez as being like the most popular of the young Avengers if they play their cards right. But going back to missed opportunities with her, I think that again, the movie's like anchored like the villain of this movie is a mother that's looking for her children and America Chavez is a child looking for her mothers.
Speaker 1 00:50:13 And so that again, just felt like a missed opportunity to not try to bring together in any way, shape or form. 'cause even with America asking Wanda like, like, what are your children gonna think about this? And Wanda just like, still doesn't care. I'm just like, I just needed them to go more into like the guilt or like the emotion or anything at the end, at the end of the movie. But I mean, that's not America's fault. That's just a thought I had 'cause we were talking about her. And then I do want to talk about Wong. I'm currently writing an article about Wong, about why he's a horrible sorcerer, a Supreme, and I wanna make it clear, I love Wong. I think Wong is a great character. But I want to go like all the way back to Drew's comment, to Drew's comment about how Dr.
Speaker 1 00:50:49 Strange and Wong, like in the final battle, they don't do anything against Wanda. That's true of the entire movie. Like something that really stands out to me on like rewatch is that at Tage Wong is just screaming instructions that his students, while they die to Wanda's attacks strange, makes a shield once. But like these two, like extremely powerful sorcerers are just standing there while Wanda kills everybody around them. And they do it at the end of the movie too. Like none of them try to like do anything about it. And I think that Wong in particular was just terrible at his job in this movie because he sent his students to die. He let his student destroy the dark hold, then he immediately gave Juan de Gore's location to Wanda. Like he just, it felt like Wong's morals shifted on what the script wanted from him. And as for being the sorcerer supreme, like, so I think that makes him a bad sorcerer supreme. But then also he didn't do anything. Like, he's literally just there, like he makes a magic string and then just like whips it around a few times. Like he just doesn't do anything. And I feel like that was like very much a disservice to his character, especially after his like really cool cameos and Chung Chi and No Way Home.
Speaker 2 00:51:52 Yeah, they're like super nerfed, like Wong and Strange in this movie. Like they really didn't do much. I mean they didn't really fight Wanda at all at all. Did strange
Speaker 1 00:52:01 Fight anyone?
Speaker 2 00:52:02 I mean, yeah, strange fought himself. He fought Mordo, fought Mordo like hand to hand. He like, I would don't know if he'd really call it a fight against Wanda. Like he did one, like I watched it multiple times. He just does one thing against Wanda. Like he doesn't even, like, there's no fight. It's kind of just like, he just sends the like souls of the damned on her and then that's kind of it. And it's kinda like trap her in that trap. And I don't really think, I don't really like have a plan besides that. Like there's no like action there. Just like Wong's just like, all right, take America's power. Like after like I just, I, it just was, it just didn't feel right to me. I don't know. And like, I mean you see Strange do like such crazy stuff in Infinity War against like a dude who had like, what, four infinity stones.
Speaker 2 00:52:47 Like, I don't know, I just feel like <laugh> like they, they could have done more like the com fight wasn't really a fight. It was more so just, it was Wanda's first kind of like, it was just showing Wanda's power and her, her dis her destructive capability. And like that's fine. Like I said, this kinda goes back to what I said earlier about when you commit to making Wanda the most powerful person in the world, you put a, it puts a limit on what you can do. 'cause then if you have try to have Strange and Wong fight Wanda, it doesn't work because Strange and Wong together can't beat Wanda. So then it's like how do you defeat this character? And I mean, I mean America, you know, was smart. She was smarter than Strange and Wong in that situation actually. So props to her, you know?
Speaker 1 00:53:29 Yeah. I don't know. It's like nothing with Strange and Wong in this movie, like sits right with me from like, from the way they talk about Wanda. First of all, I think that that's a huge problem here too. I'm also working on an article about like, um, about like motherhood in this movie and everything. But I find it very interesting how strange pulls up to the apple orchard and tells Wanda he doesn't care about Westview because she did the right thing in the end, which I think is strange. I think he should care even beyond that. But then, and then she says, I want my children. She literally says, let me take my children and I will leave this universe and never bother you ever again. Then he goes to com artage and she, and he's like, you have to be afraid she enslaved a town and she could enslave the entire multiverse if she gets this child. Like why are you pulling this out of your ass? Like she said she wants her children and now you're fear mongering over her enslaving the multiverse. Like what? They're not her children.
Speaker 3 00:54:21 That's the, that's the problem here is that she's trying to steal someone else's children
Speaker 1 00:54:26 Still, but, but where does he get enslaving the multiverse from? So yes, she shouldn't want to steal like two other people's children or another person's children. Like Yeah, that's wrong. Just, just so we're clear on that. I don't think that's okay. But she says she wants to steal, so she says, I want to kidnap two children. And then he turns around and tells everybody she's gonna enslave the multiverse. Like that is a huge gap for like absolutely no reason. Like I do not understand where he got that from. Well
Speaker 2 00:54:52 I think it's, it's more like she has the dark hold. The dark hold is relentless. It, she wouldn't just stop at her kids. She would want like the dark hold would probably, you know, drive her past that it would drive her to total domination of a multiverse. I'm kind of wondering if the dark hold's gonna have is gonna come back and some way like,
Speaker 1 00:55:15 I mean I don't, I don't think it's gone like it's too important.
Speaker 2 00:55:17 Yeah. But yeah, I understand. But I think Dr. Strange said that because he was thinking more in terms of the dark hole and not so much in terms of Wanda especially because he is like Wanda's gone. So he doesn't even consider her to be Wanda anymore. He almost considers Wanda and The Scarlet, which like two different entities.
Speaker 1 00:55:33 Well that's, that's also interesting. And I mean like, we're gonna have to wrap up soon. So like, I just wanna like put this thought out there. 'cause this is something that we talked about on Discord a little bit. Going back to the thing where I said like, Monica's the only person that ever tried to help Wanda, not a single person in this movie Caress about Wanda as a human being. I understand that the dark hold is the big threat and you need to deal with the threat before you can help the person. Like that's what like Brian was telling me, and I totally agree with that, but it's the fact that everyone is like just jumping straight to killing her just straight off the bat. They just want to kill her. And that's even like we, I don't
Speaker 3 00:56:06 Like that. Not
Speaker 1 00:56:07 So well. Yeah, like that's super messed up to me. Especially like in the Illuminati universe in 8 3 8 our like 6 1 6 Wanda was possessing an innocent woman's body and Reed says like one thing to her to try to get her to stop and then he's like, so give up or I'm gonna blow you to hell. Like is basically what he says with that threat from Black Bull. And like
Speaker 4 00:56:25 I shoulda have asked Walter about that. Like I should have gotten him to squirm even more.
Speaker 1 00:56:29 It's just so uncomfortable. Like I don't, I don't understand the point of like doing that. And so like, that's why I don't really like that line about enslaving the multiverse because I'm like, even if you're worried about that, the fact that you're like using that as some gotcha moment to show how evil she is when you literally told her to her face, you don't care that she enslaved a town. Like I just, I don't like any of that at all. Okay, well I mean I could keep talking about this movie for hours on end. Um, we didn't even get into like Mortal or anything, but I think that that's a pretty good, like, I think that that was a pretty good discussion on Dr. Strange in the Multiverse of Madness. I just wanna ask everybody one last question before we wrap up. Um, what's something that you guys are working on right now? Well,
Speaker 2 00:57:09 This week I'll have my Illuminati article. I'm actually wrote an entire article about how I think the events of Dr. Strange in the Multiverse of Madness will likely inspire Dr. Strange, you know, six or 6 1 6 Dr. Strange to start the Illuminati in the M C U. Um, and yeah, I go into detail about why that is and it's a little, you know, like I think it'll be a little bit of a, for personal reasons for Dr. Strange and also just to protect the multiverse. But yeah, so my article for that will be out this week.
Speaker 3 00:57:37 I'm working on a few different things. I have a, a Doctor Who article coming out soon. I got a few different ones on the mental health of Wanda Maximov and how that reflects in like an addict's behavior. And I just have a few like get to know your villains articles that I'm working on as well. So, uh, hopefully those are all out soon
Speaker 4 00:57:57 For Cosmic Circus. I have an article coming out about a local place you're in, like the Greater Toronto area. There's a place I'm talking about, it's like a gaming cafe. I'm, that's mostly the for Cosmic circus, like local stuff, like counter of promoting businesses. Yeah, that's kind of what I'm doing 'cause he's asking me to do and it's kind of different and it's fun. So yeah.
Speaker 1 00:58:17 Yeah. That's really cool. Julia, I didn't realize that, um, that you were working on stuff like that, but that's really interesting. Um, yeah, show
Speaker 4 00:58:22 Me a <inaudible> too, which was neat. I got to review like three comic book shops, so that's up I think. So if you guys wanna go read that. Yeah,
Speaker 1 00:58:28 I'll definitely check it out. And I'm, I'm looking forward to Brian's, um, mental health and like addiction article. Oh, same. I have a, I have, I have a ton of stuff in the pipeline. I don't know how much of it's gonna get finished like by the time this episode's out, but I'm writing three articles about Multiverse Madness, about Wong, um, hypocrisy in the M C U and then like, um, motherhood in Multiverse Madness. And then I also just did Motor City Comic-Con and have some interviews from that that should be out by the time this episode is released. Um, and so yeah, you guys can just check out more Dr. Strange content on the cosmic circus.com. Keep an eye out for everyone else's articles that are gonna be coming out. And in the meantime, you can subscribe to our Patreon for access to our Discord conversations and look for more news and reviews from us on the cosmic circus.com. You can also follow us for updates on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook at my cosmic Circus. Thanks everyone for listening.
