Speaker 0 00:00:00 Hi, I'm ala Ruby from the cosmic circus.com, and welcome to our special feature on the Essex Serpent. I've got two interviews for you today with some of the amazing creative people behind the Hit Apple TV program. First, we're talking to Anna Simon, she's the screenwriter and executive producer behind the show. Next, we're gonna go in depth and chat with Jane Petri, the Essex Serpents costume designer. I'm gonna hop right into it 'cause I know we only have so much time, and I wanna be res respectful of that. So I'm, you know, I'm so excited to talk to you. Um, you know, I love the show. I love how character driven it is, and you know how it showcases very complicated people. Um, I have a lot of questions for you about that,
Speaker 1 00:00:41 <laugh>. Okay, fine.
Speaker 0 00:00:42 All right. So I wanna talk a little bit about how you first came onto the project. You know, had you read the book before coming in? Um, what was that process like and what kind of drew you to this project and chorus story?
Speaker 1 00:00:55 I had read the book, the book was really a big hit when it came out in the uk, I think it was 2016. Um, and I'd already read it regardless of work or anything. And I absolutely loved it. I mean, like, it was my favorite book that I read that year. Um, I just felt like the characters in it were fantastic. Cora was so strong, but so fallible. Um, there's this incredible relationship between her and Will who is, you know, a man of God and they have this incredible sort of hot, hot relationship, <laugh> transgressive. Um, so yeah, and also it's a novel of so many ideas about what was going on in the world in the 1890s, this kind of battle between new ideas about medicine and science and, um, established religion. And yeah, it was just a novel fizzing with ideas and sensations and yeah, I was desperate to, uh, be a part of it, <laugh>.
Speaker 0 00:01:56 Now did you, did you kind of reach out or how did Um, no,
Speaker 1 00:02:00 I didn't actually. I, um, uh, Claire Bernard, the director, was already attached on the project, and there'd been an existing script. Um, and so I was developing something else with the production company, and I saw the manuscript on their desk. This is a couple of years later, after I'd read the book and I was asking about it. I was like, oh, I love that book. I love that book. And they were like, oh, well, um, you know, what, what do you think? Kind of thing. Um, because, you know, they were looking for a writer. So, yeah, it all worked like amazingly well, and I jumped on board, um, and like we got going.
Speaker 0 00:02:42 Oh, that's awesome. Um, so, so I kind of posed this question to Twitter saying that I'd be talking to you, and I wanted to know if anybody, you know, had any questions. And I also had this question, so it worked out. Oh, cool. But can you, can you talk about, you know, how you approached adapting the book? Because, you know, adapting IP is not, it's not easy, you know, you have to, there's dealing with the source material and keeping that essence, and also, you know, dealing with the, um, like the limitations of, of television, or in this case, six episodes. Do you wanna, can you talk about that a little bit and you know, what that looked like?
Speaker 1 00:03:16 Yeah, I mean, actually it was a difficult book to adapt because there's so much in it, um, and about in lots of different, uh, worlds. So there's like the world of ethics, which is like the main world, obviously, which is incredibly atmospheric, and you've got this kind of mystery story going on that's quite supernatural. Um, but there's also large sections of the book in London, um, with a different set of characters. Um, so we had a writer's room and we had some brilliant writers come join me, and we basically broke the book down across the six episodes. I mean, apple wanted it to be six. So that was never like a question of, is it this many episodes or that many episodes. It was like, right, we're doing six episodes. So we looked at where the book naturally fell, um, and the story naturally fell.
Speaker 1 00:04:11 And then obviously when you're in that process, you then look at, um, you know, moving stuff around which episodes feel like they've got, uh, need a bit more development, making sure that the characters don't just kind of disappear for ages and come back again, which you can do in a book. Um, spent a lot of time thinking about how to visualize or not visualize the serpent, because it's both a real threat to the village of old winter, but it's also kind of something that's much more mysterious, particularly for Cora, who's on this kind of journey of discovery and a sort of psychological psychologically traumatized woman. Um, so lots of different things to balance. Um, we, we literally just sat down and talked and it was so fascinating and mapped it out, uh, and then went away and did some writing, and then came back and read stuff and did more writing and did research. And, you know, it took about a year probably to write the episodes during which we were in Covid, so all the kind of script meetings after we'd done the writer's room on Zoom. So that was another challenge.
Speaker 0 00:05:23 Yeah, it sounds very challenging. Um, and I'm, I'm glad you brought up the, like, the writer's room. Can you talk a little bit more about that? Um, you know, how you, like, how you staffed it, how you, how you figured out who was gonna be a part of it, like what you were looking for? Because I think, and, and, you know, correct me if I'm wrong, it's all women, right? And I think, yeah, that's really unique and awesome.
Speaker 1 00:05:45 Yeah, thank you. Um, I mean, it was a mini room in the uk we don't tend to have very long writers' rooms like you do, um, in the us. Uh, so we only had three weeks. Um, and really I looked for writers along with the production company who were obviously a part of that, uh, staffing process. Uh, we decided we wanted it to be all female. Um, we had a female director and a female producer as well. So it just felt like a really, a really kind of important part of it, uh, with such a female led story. Um, so yeah, the, I guess as in staffing, any room you read the work of writers that may be writers you've already met that you've worked with before. Although in this case, I hadn't worked with any of the writers before, but their existing specs, you know, their sample scripts felt to be in the right tone. And then we had interviews and asked them about the book and about the pilot scripts and what their thoughts were on it. And, um, you know, just were looking really for people that were, you know, really vibed with the material and we felt like could add something, um, to the room.
Speaker 0 00:07:04 Um, as far as as research, obviously this is a very, you know, this, this is, it takes place 1893. This is, you know, a very historic time. Um, you know, what kind of in, in approaching the writing and in approaching, you know, the show in general, like, can you talk about the research process, um, and how that informed your writing? Were there, you know, particular resources, books, shows, consultants, like what, what helped you? I assume there's a lot.
Speaker 1 00:07:31 Yeah, we had, uh, we read a lot of books. I'm just looking along my bookshelf right now and seeing blood and guts, the history of
Speaker 0 00:07:40 <laugh>
Speaker 1 00:07:41 Equal or different women in Victorian England inventing them, Victorians, uh, yeah, we read a lot of books about, um, sort of thought that, you know, the, the ideas that were swirling around at the time that are really crucial to the show. I mean, the book is such a book of ideas. So, um, you know, it wasn't just, I, I think it involved more research than your typical period drama because it's not just bonnets and, you know, who's marrying who. Our main character is a naturalist who's, you know, studying fossils, and it's absolutely fascinated by science. And there's a surgeon and there's a vicar and there's, um, you know, this local myth about the Essex serpent that, you know, that was real. So we had to really do our homework to get all of that right. Um, and we had, you know, as we went along, a surgical consultant and so on. So there was a lot of, um, research into the political world and so on. But at the same time, I think it's important to say it is a fictional story. So at the end of the day, the biggest resource was Sarah Perry's novel, because that is where the characters live, and it was bringing the characters to life that was the most important thing to do.
Speaker 0 00:09:04 Now, did you, uh, did you work with her? Did you get, um, like, did you kind of get her input? How did that all work?
Speaker 1 00:09:11 Um, we didn't get her input as we went along because I think that, you know, in a way you need to be, um, you need to kind of distance yourself to start with, to kind of form your own ideas mm-hmm. So that you are not, you know, you're not constantly kind of checking in, because I think that would, that would be difficult around, um, but, you know, we knew, obviously I had contact with Sarah and she read all the scripts and was very happy with them. Um, and, you know, she, she gave some notes, which were very useful. Um, and, you know, as the process went on, she was very sort of integral to it. She came on set, um, she, you know, we showed her the films, the, all the, all the episodes in a kind of private screening when they were done so that she could, you know, see them all in advance of going to Apple and so on. So, um, yeah, she was, she was, you know, very intrinsically important to the whole process.
Speaker 0 00:10:12 Now, did the, did the scripts, um, like did they evolve when you guys were on set and with the, with the actors input? You know, Claire Danes and Tom Hiddleston are both phenomenal. Did they have, um, did they have insight kind of into the development of their characters and, and how that all worked?
Speaker 1 00:10:28 Yeah, I mean, we, Claire and Tom rehearsed together and I went along to those rehearsals and they definitely had questions about the characters. I think they both emailed Sarah Perry separately. Um, and there were a few, you know, bits and pieces where they sort of find something in the book that they found really helpful that wasn't in the script. So I put it in, or, you know, a couple of moments where they just wanted to know more about something or wanted a little bit, you know, more or less of something. But they weren't, you know, they were incredibly collaborative. They weren't sort of asking me to change loads of stuff or anything like that. It was more just a discussion about the ideas that are in the book and are in the scripts. Um, and, you know, wanting to really understand they're both such, such great actors and so intelligent that they really wanted to do justice to, to the ideas that Sarah had put in the book, or originally, I hope I brought into the scripts. So yeah, there was a lot of discussion. Um, and it, yeah, it was a very, um, creatively rich experience, I think.
Speaker 0 00:11:45 Um, can you talk about Cora's journey a little bit in her arc? 'cause it's very much, you know, feels like her story and, you know, like she's essential character. And I'd love to hear, you know, kind of how you, you know, how you developed that, what, what things you wanted to make sure that you, you covered and how that process was.
Speaker 1 00:12:04 Yeah, I mean, Cora is a fascinating character. When you first meet her, her husband is dying, and within the first few minutes of the show you understand that he is a violent man mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and that she's been very repressed in her marriage. And so really the story of the whole series, I guess, starting in those first few minutes of the show is seeing a woman develop from being restricted and repressed and unable to express herself, um, or even really to go out of the house very much. And we see through the, through the events of the story that she develops a sense of identity. She does this by, you know, she's been very interested in fossils and paleontology, but she's really just been able to do that via collecting fossils and having them sent to her in the post. But when she hears about this mystery of this serpent that's been spotted down on the coast, she decides this is what she needs to really sort of start her life again.
Speaker 1 00:13:15 Um, so she, so she heads down to Essex to investigate, and that journey that she goes on meeting will played by Tom Hiddleston, um, and meeting a lot of suspicious villagers that start to suspect that she might have something to do with the serpent and the way that she, um, overcomes those obstacles and learns about herself, learns about how to, how to be with other people, learns about the serpent, um, develops a better relationship with her young son. All these things happen through the series and through the events in Essex. So that by the end of the series, without giving any spoilers, I think you find her in a much better place than you do at the beginning.
Speaker 0 00:13:59 It is tricky without spoilers. And I see that, this is my last question, but, um, can you talk a little bit about Will's journey? You know, he's the vicar, he's being struck of this fear over the serpent. Can you talk about, you know, how he is when he, the show starts versus where he is at the end?
Speaker 1 00:14:15 Yeah. Will Ransom played by Tom Hiddleston is, uh, he's a very unusual vicar, I think, because, um, he's very forward thinking. He's very intellectual. He's read a lot of books that maybe some men of the cloth would find heretical. Um, he's very interested in science and Darwin's ideas. He's not just, um, sort of held back by, um, sort of very old fashioned ideas about the world as a lot of his parishioners are. So at the beginning we see him sort of trying to strike a balance between, um, listening to those around him in his community and reassuring them that the serpent isn't real. Um, and then as the story goes on, I think his own sort of self-belief becomes a bit challenged and he starts to even question himself and what he thinks as the events go on, as his relationship with Cora develops, um, we see everything that he holds dear his family or, um, being sort of thrown off kilter by these events that are happening in his village. So he goes on a really big journey, questioning his faith, questioning everything around him. Um, and yeah, I think his journey is just as big as Cora's, actually.
Speaker 0 00:15:45 Is there anything kind of, um, that you want people to know about the show that we haven't covered or, you know, that we we haven't said today?
Speaker 1 00:15:53 Oh, that's such a big question. Um, I think it's just that the show is made up of, of many parts. It appears to be about a serpent, but it's actually about so many other things, one of which is very relevant today, which is just what do we do when we're scared? Who do we turn to and what does, what do we start to fear when we sort of fear itself? Um, because I think that's something that is very relevant at the moment. Do we start to fear outsiders? Do we start to fear the unknown? Um, and can we live with uncertainty? That's very deep. I'll leave you with those deep thoughts.
Speaker 0 00:16:34 That's, that's brilliant. I love it. Thank you so much. And thank you for your time. And thank you as well, Jordan.
Speaker 1 00:16:39 No problem. It was a pleasure. Yes.
Speaker 0 00:16:41 It's likewise
Speaker 1 00:16:43 <laugh>. Thank you.
Speaker 2 00:16:45 Next, I spoke with Jane Petri, the costume designer for the Essex
Speaker 0 00:16:49 Serpent. I'm excited you're here. I'm, I'm, I can't wait to chat. It's, I love the show and I loved your costume, so I'm Oh,
Speaker 3 00:16:55 Good. Thank you. I haven't seen it yet. I've only seen the first episode because I've been, um, working and I missed the cast and crew screening, so I haven't Oh,
Speaker 0 00:17:03 No.
Speaker 3 00:17:04 Seen it all yet, but I'm, I'm gonna catch up with it. Maybe next week I'll be able to catch up with it properly.
Speaker 0 00:17:09 Yeah, it's, it's really a treat. It's, it's, it's, it's a lot of fun. I like it so much. Oh, um, now I, so you said you've been bus, are you, are you working on foundation now or Yeah,
Speaker 3 00:17:21 Yeah, yeah. I'm on season two of Foundation. We're just coming towards the end of it, actually.
Speaker 0 00:17:26 Oh, wow. So
Speaker 3 00:17:26 That's why I feel like I might be able to kind of surface and, and, and catch up with the ess exert properly. <laugh>,
Speaker 0 00:17:33 There's, their shows are so different. It's, yeah. So I'm gonna start, and I'm, I'm sure you've been asked this before. I'm gonna start a little bit about, um, you know, what was your process for, you know, starting to create for the show? Did you draw inspiration from the book or, or the screenplay? You know, how do you get from the blank page to, to your design? Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:17:54 Well, when you've, I mean, I, I, I trust my instincts really. I think, um, when you read a a well-written script, it, it, it kind of tells you what to do. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:18:04 You
Speaker 3 00:18:05 Know, so you draw on your, um, past experience and, and, and your sort of own taste and your experience to, to, to help you. But your, um, my instincts, I, it wasn't difficult. I didn't find that as exert difficult to design because it is, 'cause it's really well written and the characters are good, fully rounded kind of humans that you want to kind of go on a journey with. So it wasn't too difficult. But I've done the period before, I think, um, a bit like, uh, like maybe your westerns or something, you know, the, the kind of 1890s is a Victorian England is something that, that we have a lot of our stories. It's either that or World War II that an awful lot of our stories are told during that time. It was a high point culturally. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:18:53 So,
Speaker 3 00:18:55 Um, it's a period that I was familiar with and that I'd worked on in the past. So I definitely didn't want to do, I mean, I, I would hope I would never want to, but I certainly didn't want it to be kind of standard, Victorian fair, you know. So I was leapt on the, the kind of aesthetics that Alice Normington was working with for the her set design. 'cause we've worked, we designed suffragette together, which isn't far off the period. And I've known Alice quite a long time. So I knew what she was doing with the sets, um, for Cora's world. Um, so I sort of hooked up with Alice and then I knew that for Essex we wanted this really other worldly kind of backwater, and I wanted to kind of push that as well. So I didn't want just another Victorian village. 'cause we've seen so many of them.
Speaker 0 00:19:51 You mentioned, I think in an, in an interview earlier that you had, uh, specifically chosen like Dutch costumes for all winter. Do you wanna, in an Essex Do you wanna talk about that a little bit or? Yeah,
Speaker 3 00:20:02 I did. I didn't specifically, I was influenced by Dutch costume. Yeah. I hope that, that we were, that we were sort of away we'd, we'd moved somewhere else that, that became old winter by the, by the time it kind of, there were our costumes. But I, I, I know that in the past there was a lot of, um, there was trade between the Essex coast and the sort of Netherlands and the, that kind of, uh, coast of Europe as well. Um, and that the fishing communities had contact and there was trade. And then further just around the corner from where, where we were filming, when I looked at the map and where the story was set, there was, um, there's a little village called Little Holland. And, and I think there was clearly an authentic Dutch influence in the area at the time, which didn't really come up in visual research for me, but I reckoned, you know, it was somewhere really nice that we could explore to co sort of have a, a bit of a visual language of our own for all winter.
Speaker 0 00:21:01 Did you, did you, did you get to visit that area before, you know, before the show started filming and, you know, in the process of your research? Because Yeah,
Speaker 3 00:21:09 We, we, I went on some rec out to the, out to the coast. So we were, we knew, we knew the kind of the landscape and that, you know, it's, it is a, it is a, it is a bit of a cliche to say it, but you know, London's, London's a bit of a, you know, the London story and Michael's side is, is kind of one world. And then the Essex, the Essex landscape is, is is quite a character in that part of the story itself. So we were, both Alice and I were drawing off this sort of texture and the feel and the mood and the kind of zone that you go into in a moody kind of foggy day out there as well. We definitely drew on that, on the landscape itself for, you know, both of our starting points, I think. So I sort of put that together the, the mood, um, along with this kind of Dutch influence. And with everything that I knew about kind of fishing communities in England, well, in Britain really. 'cause the fishing communities have a very strong, um, historic look as well. You know, the old fishermen's jumpers, they used to have, um, different villages. We'd have different pat knits in their patterns. So if, um, you know, if a boat went down and somebody was washed assured, they could, the town they came from, the village they came from, could be identified by the knit of their jumpers.
Speaker 0 00:22:28 Oh wow.
Speaker 3 00:22:29 You know, there's, there's a really great, rich sort of fishing, community texture, you know, in, in Britain. So I was trying to draw on some of that and create kind of our language for our village, really. Um, and I wanted it to feel like something that was unfamiliar to the viewer as a remote part of England. So hopefully
Speaker 0 00:22:52 There you can definitely tell the, you know, the difference between, you know, the, the mood shift between that and London and that and um, that in Essex. So I think you, you definitely achieved that. And I, I am, you know, it's, it's such a, it's such a moody and kind of a misty like misty area. It's, it's just phenomenal. And I, I'm so curious about these fishing nets. Um, can you talk a little, and I, I'm gonna get into the weeds a little bit about that because I love, I love research, I love history. So I'd love to hear more about, you know, any kind of how you stumbled upon this, how you, you know, kind of fleshed out this world because it's, it's, it's fascinating.
Speaker 3 00:23:35 Yeah. I think, I mean, I, I knew, I, I, I knew quite a bit about, I, I, I'd read quite a bit about fishing communities and, and the, and the sort of clothing. And then we wanted to use all these sort of waxed cloth and it's so earthy and kind of like, almost like a mud cloth kind of color. 'cause it's a really muddy story. And there was an awful lot of mud in the landscape, you know, so we were sort of trying to, to sort of hone in on, on on the world and, and the people being of that place, you know, and that's, um, a very sort of closed community really. Um, and then the, the London, the language that we used in London was when, um, Alice Normington had been designing the house that is Michael's house where we first meet Cora.
Speaker 3 00:24:21 Right. Um, because that, that, that relationship was abusive. Um, I designed all of her costumes through Michael's eyes. So I, I wanted it to feel that he'd chosen all of her clothes and he'd had a very sort of a, a strong input, if not a complete control over all of her clothing in London. So that as she starts to kind of recover and come into her own place in Essex, all of her clothes and things could sort of start to open up. And we, you know, she goes into recovery and everything sort of gets a bit lighter and a bit easier after the really sort of the, all the tension of London.
Speaker 0 00:25:01 It really comes across in the close. 'cause she's very, you know, buttoned up and stiff in London. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And was the intention, was the intention kind of, can you talk about that transformation and how you, you know, how that came up, uh, how you kind of decided to reflect her jour Cora's journey in her clothes, because that's such a, that's such a neat, neat bit of it.
Speaker 3 00:25:26 Well, because I come, my, my kind of background is, um, is really, I've done a lot of realism and I did a lot of really kind of gritty urban realism when I, when I first started to, to design. But I'd come through, um, period in my training, um, and kind of putting those two things together. I wasn't going to go and design core a whole new wardrobe for when she was in Essex, because it didn't make any sense to me. All that made sense to me in, in terms of the logic of the story, was that she was taking her London wardrobe, 'cause that's what she owned. She was taking that, she had some traveling clothes, which was the gray coat, which, which had a sort of detachable hood, which would allow it to serve more than one purpose. And then I, I sort of built her a, a sort of a traveling wardrobe.
Speaker 3 00:26:17 And she had her London evening dresses, which meant that she was brilliantly, um, inappropriately dressed for some sequences in Essex <laugh>, which kind got a little bit of kind of comedy as well. And then I also, um, wanted to be able to get her into her kind of fossil hunting gear. Uh, so we, we had some stuff left over in the, that was set, dressed actually into the cottage. Uh, some leftover kind of trousers in the brown hat. They were, they were set dressing in the cottage as though they'd been left by the previous owner, so that I could justify all of the Lukes and, and get her into that kind of relaxed Essex look by, um, styling the existing wardrobe rather than kind of just conveniently having loads of new clothes when she got there. 'cause there wasn't time in the, in the story, there was no place that she could have bought them in that village. You know, it just had to all come out of something logical for me.
Speaker 0 00:27:14 Now, can you talk a little bit about working with Claire Deans? Did she, you know, was the process collaborative with coming up with your costume? Can you like, describe how that all worked?
Speaker 3 00:27:25 Yeah, I think, um, it may have been, I absolutely loved working with Claire Danes actually just first of all, because I think as a, I think women really like Claire, right? <laugh>. Yeah. So you, you know, and she's cool and she's, she and I'd hoped, and, and I, and I, and I was, you know, it, it was true that she was gonna be a woman's woman. And she is, she's really cool and smart and funny and generous and brilliant to work with. I really, really like Claire. And I think if we'd been, if it had, we, this was all during the second lockdown here, second covid lockdown, right? So some of the collaborative angles, uh, were, were slightly thwarted by that. So Claire, Claire was in New York for nearly all of the prep and didn't come over. Um, and the dates of the shoot pushed. So we would have Zoom meetings and I had to get her first set of measurements and her first corset fitting done by posting the corset and getting somebody to go and work with her in New York. And none of us could travel.
Speaker 0 00:28:28 Oh my goodness. So we
Speaker 3 00:28:29 Were doing it in a, in a, in a new way, probably for both of us where, you know, typically you have your first session and you just try on loads of shapes, loads of really great kind of period clothing, and you figure out what's starting to work, this is how I would do it. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and just look at some shapes on, on her or, you know, on the, on the actor, whoever it is, and figure out the direction. And then I would take all of those answers with me into the workroom and start designing specifically for the character on that body with the input from that actor. But we couldn't really do that. And Claire then, because of the restrictions, was going to arrive quite late into the prep. So we had a few zooms and I sat, I started sending her, um, we did some fitting photos on, we did some mannequins.
Speaker 3 00:29:18 I think I got a body Dublin at one point to try a load of clothes on somebody who was, who measured up to the same as Claire, so that I could kind of take a look at everything moving and mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I ended up, um, sort of doing show and tells with her, but with photographs and, and, and a little bit of video long distance. And she, she was really great and it was really collaborative, but it was really a new way of doing it. 'cause I had to go further than I've ever gone before with a lead actor before I met them physically for the first time.
Speaker 0 00:29:51 And that it's really, it seems very challenging, you know, especially in covid times and kind of, um, you know, kind of jumping into that almost. Can you, can you talk a little bit about, um, the process of working with Tom Hiddleston? Was it similar? Was it, you know, was he in, in the uk? How did that Yeah,
Speaker 3 00:30:09 Tom, yeah, Tom was here. So, um, but <inaudible> for a little bit because he had something, he had, he, he was in London. And again, it wasn't, I don't even think it was work. I can't even remember why. But I saw Tom briefly once at the very, very, very sort of early stage of prep. And then I didn't see him again in a very similar way until much, much later. Um, and I can't remember why. And it was, it would be to do with lockdown. I, I think, I can't remember, but we were able, because we were in this bubble, um, I can't remember why. But again, with Tom, I mean, his wardrobe's quite straightforward. Yeah. It was just, um, having the conversations with him about what the village was and who, the people that inhabited the village where, and that we had this kind of, he's got that kind of palor suit that he wears, which is more like a corded sort of cotton. Um, and he really liked that. We'd, we'd made a TWA actually in that, uh, a suit for him to try on in that cotton. And that was what we called our village cloth. And all of the, um, the clothes that we made for the villagers, for the men who had to get muddy and needed repeats, we'd use that cloth. And we, we called it the village cloth.
Speaker 0 00:31:18 Oh, okay.
Speaker 3 00:31:19 And, and then Tom really liked it and he really liked the idea of, um, you know, his character being kind of really, really part of the village and part of the people of sort of more of a man of the people. So we ended up sticking with it and, and we didn't move on to another rule. We were gonna make it, make it in rural, and then we stuck with the village cotton in the end.
Speaker 0 00:31:39 Okay. And I know
Speaker 3 00:31:40 That was collaborative. Yeah, very much so. Because even though there was very little, he was really involved in it and, um, and enthusiastic. It was great.
Speaker 0 00:31:48 Now, you, you've mentioned a few times about kind of the, the mud and the bog. And I'm, I'm gonna ask kind of, um, I guess not so much a costume question, but a practical question. What, like, were there challenges in keeping this all clean? And, you know, I, I wonder about that personally. How, how do you kind of manage that when you're working in the mud and the wetness and all of that?
Speaker 3 00:32:09 Yeah, it's, it's just re really great standbys. The people who stand by on set looking after the cast and sort of looking after the continuity of the costumes. Um, it's down to their experience and, and kind of enthusiasm and, uh, keeping their spirits up. 'cause it's, it's just, it's a graft. The thing is, it's just a graft. And, um, yeah, it, they, you know, there's all the practical things that you can do and, and, you know, they have to do changes. And we get, we get looked after so that we've got a warm tent to go into if everybody gets cold and wet and muddy that we can keep people up and get them changed. But it's, it's really down to it's leg work. It's just, it's just hard, a hard graft. And having a good team of people at both set, both at both ends, you know, it's practical. You've got somebody running back and forward with kettles of water if you need hot water bottles, you know? Yeah. Yeah. It's, I mean, the mud's real, so you've just got to kind of, we are all, every, all ideas in the, on the table if, if anyone can make anyone's life kind of more comfortable in <laugh>.
Speaker 0 00:33:17 That's fair. <laugh>. Um, so you mentioned the village cloth that you, you know, that you kind of came up with. Can you talk about some of the other pieces and how you, you know, how you came upon them, how you, how you got them, you know, because you, you don't exactly walk into like a department store and, and pick up something from 1893, so I imagine it was, it was a little bit, uh, different.
Speaker 3 00:33:42 Yeah, so, um, there are, I mean, you can rent some clothes from that period. You can still get some things in the, in the costume rental houses that are really useful. And it's always good to go and look at all those original garments as well. We used, we used a lot, but I, um, I have a lot, I've collected quite a lot over the years as well, and I've always got things that I've picked up here and there that with an intention to, you know, come the right project that'll be useful. So there was quite a lot of the, the knitwear and some of the things that we developed for the village came out of things that I've picked up over the years that were kind of little bits of eccentric kind of pieces of knit or, um, kind of shirts and skirts or some nice fabrics and bits, just bits and pieces that I've, I've collected.
Speaker 3 00:34:34 I, I just thought, well, what am I saving all this for? We might as well use it because the shops were shot. It was really hard to, to kind of make anything in, in the way that you might normally what, um, what was hard was, um, picking up anything in quantity. So we, we, we, we had quite a lot of my collection and, and, and my sort of pieces that we wanted to work from. Then we went and looked at, um, original garments in the costume houses was where you could kind of get in on an appointment basis where, you know, they would just sort of let us in one at a time, <laugh>, and we'd have this big space all to yourself. So we did a, a lot of research in that way. And then, um, yeah, the, the original garments that we used are largely mine.
Speaker 3 00:35:23 We bought some from dealers and we bought some, um, you know, in, in, I, I think, I think there was, um, some, some little caps and bonnets that we got shapes from that we, we borrowed from a collector and I, yeah, yeah, we did. I'd forgotten about that. We went to visit a collector who, who had some really good children's wear. So we, we, we sort of borrowed some and took some patterns from some of those old original pieces. But, um, I think really because I had so much stuff that I'd collected and because the, this is for the Village more than London, London was a lot more rental because it's a bit more straightforward. But for the village, because I had so much fabric that I'd collected, I mean, I've been kind of picking up stuff. I had a a, a vintage clothes stall in the early nineties and I've had stuff forever that it was just the right time to kind of raid my own boxes and use it all.
Speaker 3 00:36:18 So we just, we just started using it and, and, and it gave everything a bit of an eclectic feel in terms of the pieces that were put together in the village. You know, there was repairs, there were, things were slightly patched together. And the fact that we, we were restricted by the amount of fabric helped, I think, and the, the restrictions meant we were creative with our repair work. And we, we had quite a lot of knitting done by my supervisor's mother-in-law, <laugh>, you know, Uhhuh. It was, it just wasn't a normal setup. It was, and it was strangely helpful.
Speaker 0 00:36:52 No. So you, you mentioned that you used to have a vintage clothing store,
Speaker 3 00:36:57 Uh, stall
Speaker 0 00:36:58 Stall stall,
Speaker 3 00:36:59 Yeah. Yeah. Portobello market. Yeah. In the, in the nineties in London. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:37:04 Can you talk about, you know, the jump from that to this? Because that sounds like a, like a really interesting, an interesting story.
Speaker 3 00:37:11 Yeah. And it wasn't a jump. I've, I'd already been and studied costume, um, and done my degree and I was working in costume when I had that stall. I just, I've just always done the secondhand markets and the jumble sales and yard sales or, you know, anything like that. And I just, uh, there's always <laugh>. So I, I started to do it to get rid of stuff, and then I did it for a couple of years just as a kind of, uh, you know, a bit of extra cash. When you're starting out and you're a trainee and you don't earn much money, <laugh>, do
Speaker 0 00:37:43 You, do you have any advice for people that are, that are trainees now or that are just starting out and kind of wanna jump into the field and are, are at the beginning of their careers?
Speaker 3 00:37:52 Yeah, I think, um, I don't, I, I think that don't undervalue any work experience. I often get asked this, and, and I think if you, if you come to me as a, a sort of a, a recent graduate who's really passionate about costume and you've never had a job and you don't know how to work, um, I don't want to have to teach you how to work. I can help you be, um, a really good assistant. I can help you. I can teach you how to work set. I can, you know, we can teach you lots and lots of things, but I'm not going to teach you how to work. So I think it's, I think often people think, oh, I better not put my waitressing job down on my CV when I'm, you know, writing in. And I think if you can actually work and know how to behave in the workplace when you turn up, that's helpful. And, you know, my, my Saturday job when I was at college was in a flower shop, and I still use those skills in costume now. You know, it's helpful if you're doing <inaudible> or headdresses that you can, you know, sort of do some floristry. So it's not so much, um, it's, it's sort of about valuing the experience that you maybe already have.
Speaker 0 00:39:00 Um, can you, you know, we've talked a lot about the different characters and we've talked about, um, you know, how their costumes kind of have reflected the feeling and, and things you were going for. Are there any particular costumes, um, from the show that you're very proud of that you wanna, you know, talk a little bit more about? Um, is there anything that was, you know, kind of, um, challenging to pull off and that you're happy that you did?
Speaker 3 00:39:25 I think that we are all happy that we pulled off in, in the peculiar circumstances of lockdown. 'cause it was, um, you know, it was quite, some of it was quite emotional for a lot of people. Um, so the, the kind of team was, the teamwork was great, and the, and the, um, the, this bonding that happened during it was, was really, really good for all of us. And then creatively, um, I had a bit of a break on the Essex serpent because there was, I think, I don't know if somebody got covid or, uh, something happened, I can't remember. Maybe somebody had Covid who was in the cast or something, I can't remember. But we, the shoot dates pushed and we all went part-time onto a three day week for something like five weeks in the middle of prep.
Speaker 0 00:40:13 Oh wow. And that's,
Speaker 3 00:40:14 That's one of the best things that's ever happened to me. It was absolutely fantastic just to be sort of really in it and then just have a, just a chunk of extra time for, which was just really a lot of thinking. And it allowed us to do a lot of hand work and do some of the hand sewing, just that extra bit of time where we, we, we could do some of the, the slow work that, that you normally just, you know, things that are quite a lot of costume. I mean, it's, there's no shortcuts. It's, you can't, there's nothing. There's definitely analog, you know, you, you, there are no shortcuts. So if you get extra time, then it's extra hand sewing, it's extra slow making that, that's just incredibly helpful on screen. You know, just to get time is the most valuable thing. So that, that was great. I didn't mind that it was part-time in the slightest. Just the extra head space was brilliant.
Speaker 0 00:41:03 So you, you're just finishing, well, you, you've already finished the Essex Serpent and then you've made the shift to Foundation. How was, you know, how was the kind of getting in the different, um, head space for that? Because it is a shift, you know, they're very different, different shows.
Speaker 3 00:41:18 Uh, yeah. Yeah, they're very different. I had a a, a holiday <laugh> <laugh>. That was the best shift. Um, I had a break and then, um, yeah, I dunno, I, I, I think, I think by the end of the Essex serpent, um, you know, it wasn't as intense. It, we, it had settled down. We, we were all, we, we, we, it wasn't some sort of wasn't the same as foundation where we're going, you know, you, you'll go from planet to planet or, you know, you change worlds. The Essex serpent was kind of quite calm by the end, and there was nothing new going on. So I, I was probably finished when we finished. You know, there wasn't a, a kind of a, a hangover of, of me being all adrenaline fueled and still busy with it, you know? So, um, yeah, we just, I went on holiday and then came back with a clear head. So that was, yeah, it was okay.
Speaker 0 00:42:10 Oh, that's perfect.
Speaker 3 00:42:11 It was exciting. You know, foundation's exciting. It was a, it was like, oh wow. You know, and that, and that's what gets you, gets you up in the morning and kind of makes you wanna do it, is, you know, you read a script and it, it just, you can't stop your, your juices. So you're in again, <laugh>.
Speaker 0 00:42:28 So when you, to go back to the script a little bit, and to go back to the script for the, the Es ex serpent, did you kind of, can you talk about working with the director and how, you know, how everything came together to come up with a mood for the show? Because the, you know, the, the costumes are so, like, they're so reflective of that they're, so they really elevate all of the storytelling.
Speaker 3 00:42:50 Oh, thank you. Um, well, I don't know. I don't, I don't wanna put this in a, uh, in, I, I don't want this to be kind of taken the wrong way, but I think it really helped that there were loads of women involved in the, um, you know, producing and directing and production design and me and, you know, the, um, 'cause it was really kind of Cora's story. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, we just talked a lot. We talked an awful lot. And Plyo Hass got a fine art background, so she's got a really great visual eye. Um, and we talked a a lot about the feelings and the emotions and what would be reflected in each part of the journey. Um, and where Cora was at emotionally, we, I think that we, we, we did an awful lot of talking that wasn't necessarily looking at, um, mood boards.
Speaker 3 00:43:46 And I mean, we did an awful lot of that, but we, we also just chatted a lot about, about what, what the story was, what the journey was, what it was really about, where she was at, coming at, you know, recovery from abuse, all of the different themes and then the impact that the landscape and, you know, the coast would have when you were in recovery. So I think that we, we, we spent a lot of time getting into the same zone that, um, by the time everything started to get quite busy, we all really knew the tone and we, we really knew the mood and the feeling that we wanted to get into each of our own departments. So I think we, we all sort of supported each other with that in a way. It, it was because CL was really, she's really collaborative, she's really sensitive, she's smart, but, um, she's really open to, you know, I could talk to her about something. I could, we could, we could talk about a piece of music that would've figured for both of us that would've given, given us the feeling of a scene as easily as I could have shown her a piece of historical research showing a, you know, a, you know, a corset. It was much, it was a, a very, it was almost like when you work with theater directors, you have these kind of conversations. And I think our fine art background, um, really meant that we were, we were really digging deep, um, creatively. It was brilliant.
Speaker 0 00:45:09 This has been, this has been amazing and I wanna make sure that I'm respectful of your time too, because I think we've gone, um, we've gone over and I'm, I'm very much appreciative of that. But is there anything last that you want that you kind of want people to know about the show and the costumes and,
Speaker 3 00:45:25 Um, I think that, uh, I, I didn't do it all on my own. You know, I can have whatever's in my head and whatever quality of idea I have, um, can only get onto the screen with the, you know, with the right team of people around me making all of their, you know, putting all their, their skills and their effort and their care and attention to detail and love of the job in, into it. It doesn't really matter how, how well I can imagine something if I haven't got the right people around me to kind of make it real. And I have a really fantastic team of people who have worked with, uh, quite a few of them. We've worked together for years, so we know each other really well and it's the, it is the team that really kind of can get it onto the screen as well. 'cause I, you know, yeah, if I, you know, I can take credit for, for some of it, but it, it, you know, if I, I can have the, the, the, the best ideas going and if I haven't got the right team of people around me, it's not gonna get to the screen <laugh>.
Speaker 0 00:46:25 Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:46:26 You know, you know, it's, it, the team are fantastic. My, they're really great and they worked so hard and, and it wasn't easy. And, you know, people are juggling a difficult home life during lockdown and, and, you know, it's, it's really credit's an awful lot of people that it, that it looks good.
Speaker 0 00:46:40 Well, thank you very much. And you know, I'm so happy that you, you took the time to, to talk with me and Oh,
Speaker 3 00:46:47 My pleasure. Thank you.
Speaker 0 00:46:48 No problem. And I can't wait till you watch it because the show is amazing and <laugh>
Speaker 3 00:46:52 Me too. Yeah. I'll catch it. We'll, we'll I think next week's the week, I think I've got enough time next week to sit down and do it properly. Oh, that's
Speaker 0 00:46:58 Great,
Speaker 3 00:46:59 <laugh>. Okay. Thanks very much.
Speaker 0 00:47:02 Thank you very much. Bye
Speaker 3 00:47:04 Bye.
Speaker 2 00:47:05 Thanks for listening. Make sure you check out the Essex Serpent on Apple tv plus I'm Isla Ruby, and you can find more interviews and news and reviews about the show and so much
[email protected]. Bye-bye.
