Episode Transcript
[00:00:16] Speaker A: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the spice must flow, otherwise known as the Cosmic Circle. We're the companion podcast for the cosmic circus, and today we're talking all about Dune part two. I'm joined by some very special guests, Uday Kataria and John Dotson.
[00:00:33] Speaker B: Hey, what's going on?
[00:00:35] Speaker C: Hey, everyone. Super excited to be talking Dune today.
[00:00:39] Speaker A: As a fair warning, there will be spoilers in this podcast. Do not listen unless you're willing to accept our podcast descendency or something like that. And for the record, because I think I forgot to say it, I'm Isla Ruby, and I'm very excited to be talking with you guys, too.
Outside of that, let's get right into it. Did you like Dune part two? And what are your overall thoughts on the newest movie, worshipping the sandworm?
[00:01:08] Speaker C: I have a lot of thoughts on Dune part two. I want to preface them by saying I think it's a good movie. I think it may even be a great movie. But I do feel like it's overrated and really overhyped.
[00:01:22] Speaker A: Tell us what you really think.
[00:01:24] Speaker C: I liked it. I did. But just the way that everyone's talking about it, I don't think it's the second coming of God, and that's how people are treating it online.
[00:01:32] Speaker A: How about you, John? What do you think?
[00:01:36] Speaker B: So I enjoyed the first Dune film, but I didn't love it.
So my expectations going into my press screening were not through the roof.
So whenever I went into my press event, I was knocked out of my wheelchair.
I liked it a lot.
I think there are some valid criticisms for the movie, but I think it's tentacle brilliant film all the way around. And I think just on a visual effects level, I think it's brilliant.
The story can be debated, but on the technical side, I think it's incredible.
[00:02:46] Speaker A: See, I have a lot of issues with the story side and character side because that's what I tend to lean into. And Uday, you guys can't see this because we're not a video podcast, but Uday is like rubbing his hands together, silently going Moha, as we say that because he's got thoughts that I'm sure we're going to hear in a minute for doom part two. I thought this film was nice. It was good.
Like you guys, I don't think it's the second coming of anything.
And I didn't see Doom part one, so maybe I'm missing something.
I know. Again, Uda is making, like a look like I'm a crazy person. So I went into this film without any baggage except the 1983 film in the book.
Yeah, but, John, before we go on to our next question, I want to dig into what you said a little bit, because you said, from a technical standpoint, this was a really good film. And I remember we talked about on, I think it was a podcast last year, or maybe it was in discord dms about some of last year's films compared to, let's say, maybe Oppenheimer and the technical stuff of that. What do you think?
[00:04:00] Speaker B: I did not like Oppenheimer.
I was not a big fan of Oppenheimer. I didn't even say the name. But I think I thought Oppenheimer was a little overrated.
It's good. It's a good movie.
I wasn't, like I said, knocked out of my wheelchair over it. But as far as dune, I wrote a review about it, the way I feel about it when I was watching the film.
Okay. When you watch Avatar, like both films, it's incredible. It's incredible on a visual effects front, like the things that James Cameron can pull off, but I can still tell it's CGI.
You know what saying?
[00:05:11] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:05:11] Speaker B: Like, I could still see it on the screen.
I know it's going to age out the way I feel about it.
[00:05:19] Speaker A: Are you saying that this one has a more timeless quality?
[00:05:25] Speaker B: There are sequences in this movie, I just don't understand how they did it.
It looks like I'm staring at Arrakis in the way.
There's one part in this film where one of those mining machines gets blown up and it looks practical.
Yeah. When it's like trying to dig the spice, it looks real and I can't think of. Okay, I know what I'm trying to say. It makes Star wars look lazy. I'm just saying it really does.
[00:06:17] Speaker C: Well, I see that.
[00:06:19] Speaker A: Is it like the Star wars of. Is it 50 years? No, it's not 50 years ago at this point. Is it. Is it the Star wars of decades ago? Or is it like the recent Star.
[00:06:30] Speaker B: Wars that plays the recent ones? The recent ones.
The old ones got an excuse like they pour 300 million into a Star wars movie every time and it doesn't look near as good as what I watched two weeks ago.
[00:06:57] Speaker C: I completely agree with that. When you were saying that you can see that everything in Avatar is CGI, I was a little bit offended on James Cameron's behalf. But I get what you're saying because the first Avatar movie has not aged gracefully. To me, they look like video game.
[00:07:15] Speaker A: Characters now to invent technology so let's know, give them that the technology didn't exist.
[00:07:23] Speaker B: And keep in mind, I love the way of water. I'll throw it twice.
[00:07:28] Speaker C: Yeah. I actually really loved way of water as well, because I didn't remember. Well, I was nine when I saw the first movie in theaters, and so I basically didn't remember anything except the big flying thing because it reminded me of a pterodactyl. But I really liked way of water. And to me, way of water is far superior to Dune. But I think that I click with Avatar more. I like the alien stuff more, and I definitely like the water more. I feel like I hate sand. And so there's something where I'm not connecting with Dune the same way that everyone else is. So I'm really happy for everyone else, but I just don't get, like, I like the story, but then I feel like I just need to read the book to get the story because I haven't read the book yet. I want to, but to me, the movies are now consistently not doing enough for me in regards to that. So I think that the do movies are incredible from a filmmaking perspective. I think everything is off the charts.
And again, like John, what you were saying about budgets.
How did killers of the Flower moon cost more, actually, than Dune part two?
[00:08:40] Speaker A: You would be authentic costumes and manpower.
[00:08:44] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:08:46] Speaker A: There's a lot of stuff there, and we could go into a whole side discussion. I just want to jump in there about paying VFX people fairly and paying the people who actually make this stuff look really freaking cool fairly and not need work. So when you're talking about budgets, that's how Dune stuff may be able to get away with a smaller budget.
[00:09:06] Speaker B: Actually, yeah.
[00:09:07] Speaker C: The cast salaries came out today, and no one's getting paid $20 million in Dune. So I'm sure that has something to do with it.
[00:09:15] Speaker B: I just want to say I fully support every visual effects artist out there.
You all work very hard, and you're probably being treated like slaves by Disney. And much love to y'all guys.
Much love to you guys.
But what I'm shook by is not that the visual effects artists are lazy.
They are not.
I think Disney is corporation. I think the corporation is, um.
And it's just there's things in this film that it blows my mind that it was achieved. It was achieved. And when I'm looking at this screen and I feel like it's in front of me in a way that I just can't fathom or just process, to me, that's just like an achievement on every level.
[00:10:27] Speaker A: Done.
[00:10:28] Speaker B: But I do understand your story problems, like, compared to avatar, because dune is more cold. I think it's a story like it leaves one going cold than the way of water, which has a little more of an upbeat tone towards the end.
But that's my thoughts. I could go on all day.
[00:10:58] Speaker A: John, real quick. I wanted to know if you saw it. And I'm wondering, too, if that I have not.
[00:11:05] Speaker B: I have not been able to.
So the screening that we were at, that took place like several weeks ago, the IMAX projector was broken, so they put us in a, what do you call it? XD. An XD theater.
It wasn't terrible, but it was an IMAX.
[00:11:34] Speaker A: That's not fair.
[00:11:36] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:11:39] Speaker C: Not to brag, but I saw it at one of the 75 millimeter imaxes.
This might make people hate me, but I did not see a difference between 75 millimeter Imax and regular Imax. Maybe I wasn't looking for it because I was engrossed in the movie, but, yeah, I couldn't tell the difference.
[00:12:02] Speaker A: Interesting.
[00:12:04] Speaker B: Well, it also might be the theater that you were at.
Sometimes they don't run it. Correct.
[00:12:13] Speaker A: I'm just curious if Ben Affleck and Jennifer Lopez were at your screening today, because I know you're in Hollywood and there's this popular clip of them going around on the Internet, taking their popcorn and stuff, cleaning up behind them, being good movie citizens.
[00:12:30] Speaker C: I wish, but no, because I'm not actually in Hollywood. I'm in Orange county. So I'm far enough away that the rich people probably don't come down here that much.
[00:12:41] Speaker A: All right, so, guys, we've talked a lot about our impressions of Dune two, and this podcast is all about Dune two. But I want to know what you thought about Dune one before we go any further. And if you had, based on that movie, if you saw it, unlike me, who was unburdened by it, if you had a lot of anticipation for Dune two or if you were just kind of meh.
[00:13:04] Speaker C: So I also thought Dune part one was a little bit overrated.
I also want to be clear that, I mean, I've already said that I don't really think that Dune connects with me the same way as other people.
But I also want to be clear that I do hate sand. I hate it so much. Like, every time I see a sand planet in Star Wars, I just die to.
[00:13:27] Speaker A: You're going to like Dune Messiah when it comes out. That's all I'll say.
[00:13:30] Speaker C: Good.
But yeah, with Dune part one, also, I saw it at a little french indie theater in Montreal. So all of the subtitles, whenever they spoke in the sardoacar language and everything, it was all in French and I could barely grasp what they were saying. So that might have affected my first viewing experience of Dune part one, but I really liked the vibes. To me, it was like, vibes the movie. But I was like, nothing happened, right? And if I come across as a dune hater, it's because I'm a hater on principle because, no, I was so pissed off when Dune part one started and it just came up as part one because two part movies were a great thing in 2012 to 2015. But for some reason, everyone now wants to make two part movies without making the part two first. Like, there's a difference between two part movies and regular sequels. And nowadays people love making part ones. And then they're like, they don't have a part two greenlit. They haven't started working on it, and they're like, it's going to come out in three years. That's just a sequel. Then don't make it a two part movie. So I'm thinking like, mission Impossible, spiderverse, Dune. I'm like, guys, no. So I hated Dune part one on principle for being called part one, but not having part two greenlit.
[00:15:00] Speaker A: See, I think that they had part two greenlit. If they did that. There was all this commentary that the director had at the end saying, well, I don't know if we're really going to get a part two. Come on. He got a part two. It was likely a negotiation tactic. They're not going to say part one without having part two locked, although it is Warner Brothers, so who knows?
[00:15:20] Speaker C: People have done it before. Let's remember the fallen Divergence series. We never got a part two for that. Not that we wanted one, but yeah, I also did not like the way that it shifted. It's like in a month up to the release of Dune part one, it was like, oh, part two. And I was like, what? I was like, I thought I was getting a complete movie. So Dune part one was very much like half a movie to me. And it just kept teasing a bunch of stuff that was going to happen. I want to be clear. I think it's fine that it was half a movie. The world of Dune is very heavy. I think it needed that much time and respect given to the world building.
But I do have to say I have the same feelings about Dune part two, where I feel like Dune part two is very middle chaptery and a month before Dune part two's release, Denise has started saying, are we going to make Messiah? Like, maybe I can't rush perfection.
So I'm kind of like, dude, I can't do this.
[00:16:21] Speaker A: So if you look at the 1984 Dune, that was one movie, right? And that covered the first Frank Herbert book that was rushed. The pacing felt really weird. And I think at least with this, having it set up as two movies and ending at a point where poor Oscar Isaac, if you haven't seen the first one, all I have to say about that, things have a little more to breathe and we can kind of see Paul's arc from part one through everything that happens in part two. Even in part two, he has an arc.
[00:17:01] Speaker C: I'm going to let John speak in just a second because I feel bad. But yeah, the last thing I want to say about on principle, on principle. It's also insane to me that you spend five and a half hours adapting one book and then it's like, the baby isn't even like, I don't care why he changed it. I haven't read the book, but I know that Aliyah plays a big role at the end of Dune part one and that she's the one that in the first Dune book, I mean, and she's the one that kills the baron and everything. And so the fact that the baby isn't even born after you spend five and a half hours adapting a single book. I haven't seen the 1984 dune, so maybe the pacing in that is too rushed, but to me, the pacing in the new ones is too slow.
[00:17:44] Speaker A: All I will say before I let John talk to. I'm sorry is Napoleon and Rebel Moon. That's all I'm going to say.
[00:17:52] Speaker C: I have not seen either.
[00:17:54] Speaker B: Hey, guys. Longtime no see.
I'm just kidding.
I was going to say I watched Doom bar one the way Christopher Nolan intended on HBO. Max.
That's the way I watched it.
[00:18:13] Speaker A: Max plus one or whatever it is.
[00:18:16] Speaker B: Whatever it's called these days.
So I read part of the book leading up to Dune, and it's a hard read, I'm not going to lie.
And when I was going through it, I kind of understood a little bit why they made that two parts, because there's so much detail in there that it almost makes you want to punch yourself in the face, fuck with how much they put inside there before they even get to the story.
Right.
The meditative aspects of Doom part one didn't really bother me because I'm kind of used to Denis Villeneuve's style.
[00:19:15] Speaker A: Were you an arrival fan?
[00:19:17] Speaker B: I love arrival so much. I love it so much.
I adore that movie.
And I also like Blade Runner 2049, which is extremely slow burn to a point that if you're not a Blade Runner fan, you're going to lose your mind. But I love it.
So I was prepared for that aspect. And I think Doom part two kind of like, suffers a little bit here and there for being a little bit slow burn and meditative at times.
And I get it. It's not for everybody. It's kind of an acquired taste.
And maybe you all like slow burns and I'm just being ridiculous.
[00:20:23] Speaker C: Sorry. I actually do love slow burns, but I think I'm discovering that I like a very specific type of slow burn because I love arrival. I think arrival is excellent. But to me, the dune movies, I don't think they're boring. But there's just something in there that makes me go like, oh, I like the world, but I just wish something was happening besides, like, staring at sand.
Sorry. Go ahead.
[00:20:56] Speaker A: No, you go ahead.
[00:20:58] Speaker C: Well, yeah, that's pretty much it. I do like slow burns. I think that, like I said, there's something about Dune that just doesn't connect with me.
[00:21:05] Speaker B: Well, I think Paul Atreides.
Atreides, you're doing a good job.
[00:21:12] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:21:14] Speaker B: I think he's a very difficult character to connect with. I don't know why.
[00:21:20] Speaker A: That was how Herbert wrote him. I think he was really shocked and dismayed that after reading the novel, people would think of him as like this grand hero because he's not supposed to be likable.
[00:21:32] Speaker B: Right. And you're making him the main character and it's like he's already cold on the surface to be accessible.
So it's hard to like. I think that's a little bit of a hard gateway for some.
And I'm not going to lie.
Sometimes doom could be a little boring.
It can be a little boring.
[00:22:07] Speaker A: I want to say, though, with the boringness of Dune, at least we've got these beautiful vistas. We've got, like the Lawrence of Arabia desert. We've got all this really pretty scenery to blow our mind. While maybe we are waiting for Austin Butler not to lick weird things anymore.
[00:22:31] Speaker C: We do have beautiful vistas, but they're all sand. Give me some water.
I'm kidding. But yeah, the best part of Dune was when he saw some water on Arrakis in that vision.
No, I'm kidding.
But actually, I think what John was saying about Paul being a cold character and hard to connect with. That's interesting because actually one of my biggest problems with the movie, I have some subjective issues with the movie, clearly. And again, I have the whole thing about the two part movie principle that again, it still deeply offends me.
Two part movies only work when you release them one year apart, or not only work because this movie is doing very well at the box office, but I think, hard to do.
No, it's not. If it's a two part movie, you film it like one movie. If you're going to release it as one movie split in half, then film it as one movie split in half. But anyway, I could have a whole.
[00:23:21] Speaker A: Podcast about this that's like an invincible style discussion or anything on Netflix now that we have to wait for four years between seasons and we don't remember anything that happened previous.
[00:23:32] Speaker C: Yeah, but with Paul, I guess that was one of my big problems with Dune Part two, is that he is like a likable character that genuinely feels good for so much of the movie.
And then I feel like him becoming the messiah and becoming and doing bad things. I feel like it came very quickly. I feel like both Paul and Jessica's character arcs took a very sudden, sharp turn and it felt way too rushed for me, considering how slow paced the movies are. And I guess that part of that is intentional. And I know that they both drink the water of life and everything, and that does open their minds or whatever, but it's just, to me, drinking the Kool Aid isn't an excuse to rush the development that, like, I know that Jessica believed in the prophecy and was trying to bring about the quasi Tetrak, but she drank the Kool Aid and then was immediately like, it's time to convert the non believers. Like, we're going to start with the weak and worm our way into their minds. And I was like, whoa, lady.
[00:24:41] Speaker A: It is kind of a cop out in some ways, because it's like, what? When you drink the water of life, you get millennia of pain and anguish and supposedly wisdom while doing that.
[00:24:53] Speaker C: And the thing is, honestly, I feel like that doesn't really come across on screen for me. I feel like I understand how the water of life impacts people because I read about it on Wikipedia after seeing the movie, not because it was really well explained in the movie. And I rewatched Dune part one while I built the Dune Lego set the night before. I saw part two, and I liked Dune part one a lot more, watching it at home where I could pause it and look up what was happening.
Because even though it's a two part movie, and even though it is so slow and so much is explained and the world is built up, I feel like there's so much that I just don't get from the movies. And that's going to happen with any book to movie adaptation. But for me, it's more egregious with Dune because I feel like these are really important things that I only understand if I go to an outside source.
[00:25:45] Speaker A: What do you think, John?
[00:25:47] Speaker B: I mean, that was well put. Here's what I really think. Okay, sorry. Here's what I really think. I understand the complaints. I understand the issues. I understand all that. But can we just acknowledge for 5 seconds that Warner Brothers paid, what, like 150,000,000 or so for a movie that involves draining and draining.
Draining and draining a worm of its juice, the water of life, and drink it like it's just like a Nickelodeon future.
That's why I call this movie a miracle, because studios don't pay for things like this anymore at all.
[00:26:41] Speaker A: I want to make a bucket joke so badly, but I'm not going to make a popcorn bucket joke.
[00:26:48] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. But, yeah, it never happens.
And Dune by itself is already kind of a risky expense for anyone because of all the weird details inside the book.
And I'm just in awe that this happened.
That's just what I think, regardless of the issues. But, yeah. Sorry, what?
[00:27:20] Speaker A: I'm curious because something you said kind of made me think about it. Do you think any other director could have pulled this mean, let's say, christopher Nolan could have, but any other modern director.
[00:27:36] Speaker B: Chris Nolan? Yes.
I don't think Chris Nolan is weird enough to do this.
I don't think he is too.
[00:27:44] Speaker A: Have you seen inception? No.
[00:27:47] Speaker B: Well, yeah, inception is, like, strange, but it's also formal in some ways because every known movie has got a presentation of being like, it's science fiction with the tuxedo.
[00:28:09] Speaker A: That's a nice way of putting it.
[00:28:12] Speaker B: And Dune is like science fiction with acid at times.
[00:28:19] Speaker A: So you're saying it's the boy and.
[00:28:21] Speaker B: The heron a little bit, only I kind of understand this more than the boy and the heron, but that's just kind of how.
It's just so weird and crazy and bizarre and they spent money on it. And here you go. I'm excited about it.
[00:28:48] Speaker A: If you like films and filmmaking, I agree with that.
This is a weird movie about worms that surf in the sand, Uday's favorite place. So we should clap and say it's good that it got made that's another thing.
[00:29:04] Speaker B: That's something. There's one sequence in.
I gotta talk about it. I gotta talk about it.
[00:29:12] Speaker A: Let's do it.
[00:29:13] Speaker B: There's one sequence in this movie where there's ship explodes in the background and then three worms pop up and there's people running.
What, in the words of Russell Crow, are you not entertained?
It's crazy.
[00:29:40] Speaker A: Yes, that's totally fair.
[00:29:44] Speaker B: Yeah, all right.
[00:29:50] Speaker C: I was entertained, but I don't know, I thought I was going to be more entertained. I don't know.
[00:30:00] Speaker A: Do we need to bring up WandaVision or Doctor Strange? Is this a bad moment and being entertained or are those not good memories?
[00:30:12] Speaker C: Those are not. Well, WandaVision was a good memory. The other one, not so much, but I don't know. Again, I feel like it's just something wrong with me in that I don't get why it's not hitting the same as everything else.
People are describing Dune part two as the most epic war movie of all time. I don't feel like it's a war movie. I don't feel like there was a war.
[00:30:39] Speaker A: There's a battle with Johnny, but was.
[00:30:42] Speaker C: There even a battle? I'm like, she stabbed two people and it was over.
That's one of my other problems with the movies. The end to me, was very unsatisfying. Like I said, it feels very middle chaptery to me. And I feel like the thing with Chanty was awesome. And the way it paralleled Paul's vision from the first movie, that was really cool. The sandworm riding was amazing, where they come in waving the Atreides banner. And that I will say, I think I went in with two high expectations. I think that came from multiple different places. One, all of the reviews and everything. Because, I'm sorry, but whoever thinks that Austin Butler deserves an Oscar nomination doesn't understand why people get oscars. Because that man licked a knife and stabbed some people. And he was excellent. But he is not the best on screen villain since Heath Ledger's Joker. He barely registers. He's in the movie for like ten minutes.
[00:31:40] Speaker A: This is like a whole nother discussion about Stan. And that's people who are obsessed with actors. I think that's where that Austin Butler.
[00:31:49] Speaker C: But I also feel like it's people from book fans, because someone was like, oh, look at the erotic tension in their fight. Because the way that they're looking at each other and how intimately they're stabbing each other and how cool that is, given that Paul was supposed to be a girl and he was supposed to marry Faid Rauta to create the quasi Tatarak. And I'm like, you don't know that watching the movie.
You do know that Paul was supposed to be a girl because they mention it in one offhand sentence in the first movie. But you don't know that the breeding plan was that Harkonnen and Atreides would have a political marriage and then their child was supposed to be the messiah. You only know that if you read the Wikipedia page like I did, or read the book, I guess.
But anyway, that's besides the point. It's just that I do think that part of my expectations being high came from all the reviews and all of that stuff. But then also part of it came from the first movie because the first movie, because these movies spend so long teasing you with the visions of the future. And someone said, you can't spoil dune because you know what's going to happen. It's like seeing the journey that's most exciting. But for me, it's like the journey isn't satisfying because this whole time I'm like, oh, my God, how's Paul going to become the messiah? He's so resistant to it.
How are these things going to happen? And then they just happen so quickly and it's like I feel like they go without any impact. He sees these visions of the future that are super dramatic and I'm like, oh, my God, that looks so emotional. And then the things happen and I feel like they don't have any emotional weight to them.
[00:33:34] Speaker A: I want to jump in on the idea that you mentioned and kind of grab onto that. You can't spoil dune because there are books, because of whatever. And I totally disagree with that idea because I think a movie, a book adaptation should be able to stand alone. Any story should be able to stand alone. And that's one of the fundamental things of being just like an entertaining story. If, like you said, you need Wikipedia or whatever to understand the third dimension twice removed times five, then something is missing. But is that really necessary too? At the same time, I think that for me, Dune part two, some of the stuff that. I agree. I loved all the technical stuff. I was awed by this film in so many ways, but just some of the character stuff didn't quite feel earned. And that's what I'm big on. I think you have to earn the ending instead of just magically waving a wand and getting what your characters want.
[00:34:35] Speaker C: That's how I feel. I thought the characters were more complex in Dune part one than in Dune part two. I feel like Paul and his mother both became like cardboard cutouts by the end, especially his mom. I did not like, I figured where her character was going to go from what I knew of the Dune franchise and her involvement with the prophecy. But again, it's like the journey was not satisfying to me.
But the thing. Sorry, I wanted to circle back. People weren't saying that you can't spoil Dune because there's a book. They were saying you can't spoil Dune because they tell you from the beginning what's going to happen to Paul. So they were like, because, you know, he's going to become the messiah because of these visions he's having. But again, it's just like we're two movies into this Dune trilogy, I guess, now. And it's like I'm still waiting to see anything as impressive in the present day as the visions that we see of the future now that dune part two has come and gone. Some of those visions have come true, but it's like, yeah, the way they're executed in the present day is not as impactful as the visions are.
[00:35:38] Speaker A: Well, they've come true and they've changed a little bit. Right. I'm thinking of, again, that battle or war, whatever we call it, with know, being there instead of Paul.
But John, I wanted know, find out what your take on any of this was.
[00:35:58] Speaker B: Which part we covered a lot. Right.
I mean, as far as Austin Butler, I think he looks phenomenal without eyebrows.
That's how I feel about it. He's a good villain and that's about all guys.
It's not. He flipped ledger at all, but it's good.
But we're going to give a complaint about it. And I kind of talked about it in the review.
Is that the part that I didn't buy throughout the movie? And I'm not sure what.
There's two factions of this, Freeman. Right? There's like the north and South. And they talk about how the north believes one thing and the south believes another.
[00:37:03] Speaker A: Like the fighting and religious. Right. That's basically the difference.
[00:37:06] Speaker B: Yeah.
And several times in the movie they tell me, well, they told the viewer that the people that believe in the messiah fear Paul.
And I never, ever got there with Timothy Chalamet.
He does a good performance when he has a commanded army. Holy hell. I was like, okay, good job. Well done. But at no point in the entire film did I think anybody was afraid of him. He's a little guy. Stogard is this huge guy. And I never was like, yeah, stogard's afraid of Timothy Chahome.
[00:37:53] Speaker A: Come on.
[00:37:53] Speaker B: Come on, now. So I never got that with the story.
Well, just with the performances.
And that part of it did not translate well to me. I don't know what.
[00:38:16] Speaker A: I don't. And I will. Sorry. I don't find Timothy Chalamet as a particularly strong leading man, and that's probably controversial.
I think that he's not well matched to Javier Bardem in this movie. Or still got rather.
[00:38:40] Speaker B: No, it's Javier Bardiem, that guy.
I didn't buy it.
[00:38:53] Speaker C: I think that he did get scary at the end for, like, when he has this whole speech and he's rising up to become the.
Yeah. But again, it felt very unearned to me because I'm like, you didn't want to do this. Then you drink the worm juice. You see Anya, Taylor, joy, and then you're like, hey, guys, let's have white supremacy.
Also, that was a joke, but we got it. Yeah. I just want to be clear for everyone listening, there is an element of that, but it's just like, that's the thing to me. It's like, I understand the point of these things. I understand that it's about how an outsider comes in and colonizes them and takes control of the universe. And I understand that it's like the power of religion and everything, but it's literally a cult. They literally drink the Kool Aid, and then they start a cult. And I know that that's the point, but I'm just like, again, there's a disconnect there. So that's why I want to read the book. I want to see if the book is giving me the layers that I'm missing from the movie, because I think there's three characters in this movie that lose all their nuance. And for me, that's Jessica, Paul, and Stilgar. And I know that Stilgar wasn't in the first movie much, but he went into this really weird place in the second movie where he was so comedic and so fanatical, and you don't get any sense of that. In the first movie, even Paul arrives on Arrakis, and people are, like, chanting Lisa and Al Gaib. And you can see that people care about this prophecy. And Stilgar is in multiple scenes in the movie, and I don't even know if he mentions the Lisa and Al Gaib. I think he does at the end, but there's no hint in part one of that kind of religious fanaticism. And then in the second movie, he's just like, this comedic comic relief hype man, for Paul. And so it really wasn't what I was expecting. And to me, it's very jarring.
[00:41:02] Speaker B: And tell me, when you look at Paul in the movie, do you think, oh, man, that's.
[00:41:11] Speaker A: Wonka. Sorry.
[00:41:13] Speaker C: I actually haven't seen Wonka, but I buy Timothy chalamet in this do, especially in part two. I do buy him because that's the point, right? Paul is not physically imposing. Paul is just smart and trained in the ways of the Bene Gesseret. And he's like, yeah, and he's the outsider that's worshipped.
[00:41:44] Speaker B: What I'm saying is, I understand Charlemagne is a great actor. He's a great performer. He could make a lot of things, like, believable.
I just didn't believe all these other people were. I just didn't buy it.
Like you said, that indian speech is awesome. It's great.
There is no critiques on how he did that speech. I still don't believe that man.
If he were a real person right now, like, in real life, I don't believe anybody would follow that guy.
[00:42:30] Speaker A: I wonder, too, if part of his. Maybe we all just don't see his appeal. Or maybe you do. I don't know. Because it's an age thing almost. He skews much younger.
I don't know.
He just seems like a kid to me.
[00:42:50] Speaker C: But I have to be honest. If there was a figure like that, like, in modern day America, I can totally see people following him. And for different reasons, maybe, but it's like there is something right about that outsider coming in. And so it doesn't matter that he's a kid. It matters that, well, like, one. He showed up with his mom, right? And so it's like, that's like the coming of the Lisa and Al Gaib is like the mother and the son, but it's also just like that power of idealizing an outsider where it's like, that's the outsider. And so it doesn't matter how he looks. It's like he looks different from you.
And you've been hearing prophecies for thousands of years about how this outsider is going to come and lead you to paradise. And so it works for me. I have to be honest.
[00:43:44] Speaker A: Well, that's what we're here to talk about. We're here to talk about what works and what doesn't work.
[00:43:50] Speaker B: I'm glad I worked for you. Definitely. I'm glad I worked for.
[00:43:54] Speaker A: So, okay, so we've talked about him. We've talked. Well, have we really? Talked about Rebecca Ferguson at all. Do we want to talk about Jessica and say, do we buy her in this part of the movie? Do we think that we're satisfied with her character arc? Do we think we're satisfied with what's going on with her and her magical, weird little baby?
[00:44:22] Speaker B: I didn't understand anything that was going on with that, so I don't have any comment.
Kind of like today, I would probably need clip notes to understand what was happening. I was just, like, marbling how weird it was in a blockbuster. That was the only thing that I took away.
[00:44:49] Speaker C: Yeah, all the fetus shots.
I have to say that again. I haven't seen Dune part two more than once, so maybe I need to see it again. I'm shocked, but I feel like they listen. I'll watch some movies so many times in theaters, but like Dune part two, I think I'd only go again because my coworkers want to see it again, but maybe not. I kind of am interested in seeing it again because I want to see if some of these things really weren't put in the movie well enough for me, because it's like, also for me, I feel like I only understand the baby thing because, again, I read stuff on Wikipedia after the movie ended. So it's like the water of life awakened Aliyah's consciousness before her.
[00:45:36] Speaker A: But she's a good grown person.
[00:45:39] Speaker C: Yeah, but that doesn't make sense. There's a difference between awakening a baby's consciousness and giving her the mind of a full grown woman just because you drink some worm juice.
And again, that's something we can get past. It's Sci-Fi it's weird. It's fine. But I don't know, to me, also, not to get political, but I was thinking about this during the movie. It did have a very strange kind of vibe, especially showing the fetus shots where it felt like a weird little pro life stance at points where it's like fetuses are fully conscious human beings. And I don't think that that is what was intended in the 80s. But it's like, that's how it came across to me in today's political climate. And also considering the Marilyn Monroe thing with her talking to her fetus in blonde.
[00:46:35] Speaker A: Now, I haven't seen.
Can't.
[00:46:38] Speaker C: Neither did I, but I saw the scenes of her talking to her fetus, and it had eyes and stuff and was like, there's a lot of in utero shots. So I find that interesting.
[00:46:53] Speaker A: Well, what about. Well, moving on a little bit from unless John, do you have anything you want to add on to.
[00:47:04] Speaker B: If you get a pro life takeaway from it?
That's an honest take.
I don't know. Denny Villeneu's politics.
He's canadian, so I'm not sure how he feels up there.
I have a weird total recall vibe from it. Kind of like, did you all see the recall about chance? Do you know what I'm talking about?
[00:47:42] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:47:45] Speaker B: Okay, so in total recall, uday, there's a part where this guy takes off his vest and there's, like, this weird baby tumor attached to him. That's like talking.
You know what I'm talking about?
[00:48:07] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm trying to bring up a picture of it.
[00:48:13] Speaker B: Quatto. I can't remember his name, but I have weird little recall vibes.
Yeah. That's what it kind of reminded me of, even though I did not understand the thing, what was going on and still don't. But that was my takeaway. I was like, man, this is weird. I love weird. Give me all the weird in the world.
[00:48:41] Speaker A: You are a true Sci-Fi person.
[00:48:45] Speaker B: I do. It's the same thing with, like, not trying to go on a marvel kick.
[00:48:51] Speaker A: But we are a comic book loving website, so I think it's fair to talk about marvel for.
[00:48:58] Speaker B: It's kind of like Loki. I love how weird Loki is all the time.
Just make all cinema weird, please. I want it to be weird all the time.
[00:49:12] Speaker A: I love that. I think that's a wonderful sentiment.
And I know we have about ten minutes left because this podcast has just kind of flown by. And I want to talk about some of the positive, too. We spent a lot of time talking about things maybe that didn't quite work for us or things that were weird in a not great way. I would love to talk about things that you think were just really mind blowingly good. If you have any top specific moments besides Austin Butler's lack of eyebrows, I want to hear they.
[00:49:53] Speaker B: I want to hear all your top five moments of.
Well, go ahead, though, man. Go ahead.
[00:50:03] Speaker C: Well, I'm thinking we haven't talked about Florence Pugh.
She was good.
I really liked her outfits. I thought that they were really cool.
I thought it was interesting to learn a little bit more about the emperor.
But again, her character just feels a little bit like she doesn't matter yet. It's like she's being set up for something, and that's what both she and Denise have said.
But, yeah. So I feel like it's kind of hard to read her. I guess I'm like, oh, it's Florence Pugh. I'm always happy to see her.
And I'm still interested in the Bene Gesserette. So I know that there's a Dune prequel series coming out in late 2024 on Max, supposedly.
[00:50:49] Speaker A: I know the last update was 2019, and then life happens in between all of that.
[00:50:55] Speaker C: So I was looking it up. They filmed it and everything very quietly, but they also retitled. It's not called Dune the sisterhood anymore. It's called dune prophecy, which sounds super generic.
And I don't really know how to feel about it because it sounds like it's had some production. But, like, on paper, I'm very interested in digging more into the gesserette because I love that moment at the end when Rebecca Ferguson and Charlote rampling, I think her name is, that plays the lead, like Benny Jesret. I loved when they were in the same room and were having, like, a reverend mother off.
So I don't, like, I want to know more about that side of the world, but, yeah, I don't just. I want to know more about the world of Dune, but I feel like I'm just not being satisfied by the story that's being told.
[00:51:54] Speaker A: We were supposed to be.
[00:51:57] Speaker C: It's just. It's all mixed up together for me. It's like there's stuff that's so good, but then it's just like, it's not. That stuff is bad. It's just like, I think I just need to read the books, to be perfectly honest, I can't think of any really other standout moments. I mean, I really liked all the visions, like Rebecca Ferguson leading Paul into the religious south. That was a great vision. Kind of disappointed that. Well, no, we're being positive, but I was going to say kind of disappointed that we didn't get that in real life.
[00:52:31] Speaker A: I will add, know you mentioned Florence Pugh. I think that compared to the books and today's International Women's Day, so it's totally appropriate. I think that the women in Dune, for all the problems that we've talked about already, I think they were more balanced in the story, more of, I think that there was an attempt to counterbalance the white savior narrative. And I think that's what we got a little bit with Rebecca Ferguson's Jessica and with Princess Iriland and Leia Sadhu's character, who, I'm completely forgetting the name of it, even though she's only on screen for a tiny bit and did that one interesting thing I'm avoiding think. I think there was an effort made to make it less Messiah, even though it is a story about a Messiah character.
[00:53:34] Speaker C: And I was going to say, I don't know how we've gotten in here so deep into here without talking about crap.
[00:53:41] Speaker A: Yes, Tawny and Zendaya, that is a huge.
[00:53:45] Speaker C: Yeah, she did a great job. But yeah, just again, from what I know of the Dune book, it seems like she's been given much more agency as a character, which I find very interesting and I'm very appreciative of because I know what happens in Dune Messiah and what a waste of Zendaya that would be. So I really hope there are some people saying that we're really set up to go in an interesting direction with Messiah that can be different from what the book did because they can't see a way that the Messiah storyline plays out, given how Dune part two ended with Chani. And so I'm personally very excited about that.
[00:54:26] Speaker A: And how it ended with her is she went off, she had that blue ribbon, which apparently means she's pregnant. I had to look this up and find out afterwards, which is kind of similar to the books, right, to Dune Messiah. So I totally agree. And it's such an oversight not to have mentioned her again. She's a counterbalance to him. She's the fighter, she's the skeptic.
There's that giant speech where he's, well, arguably growing into his character and this figure after he's been in his coma. And she starts off as a non believer, and then he convinces her as a believer. But then at the end, again, she's a skeptic.
It's going to be interesting to see what they do with her.
[00:55:15] Speaker B: Yeah, I would say that the parts that I liked were, there's a sequence where Zendaya and Timothy Chalamet are like hiding behind the legs of a machine as this flying thing, like flying vehicle is like shooting at them. And at one point, the cinematography switches to the pov of the gunner, and you're just looking down over this planet with all the vehicles on the ground.
I could have lived in that moment. I just thought it was gorgeous the way it looked.
That's one part that I deeply walken.
I mean, he didn't really do very much. I don't think he's great in it, but I like Christopher Walken in anything anyway.
And, yeah, just the special effects guys.
I think I'm one of those movie watchers that really loves being immersed in an environment. And I just love the immersive fill of the film, even if the vibes were not totally there throughout. But the immersive nature of the way the art, design, the special effects.
Just cinematography, guys. The cinematography in this thing, it's insane.
[00:57:15] Speaker A: And the cinematographer was Greg something or other, right? Is it Fraser?
[00:57:19] Speaker B: Fraser, I think Fraser.
[00:57:22] Speaker A: And he plays with lights in such an interesting way, like he did the.
[00:57:26] Speaker B: Batman and he did another.
Like, he is, like, on par to possibly be the next Roger Deacons.
[00:57:40] Speaker A: He's won an Oscar, right? Or just nominated? I don't remember.
[00:57:44] Speaker B: He has. I cannot remember, to be honest. I cannot remember. But he's really good. But that was the stuff that I liked.
[00:57:55] Speaker A: Well, I think that brings us to the end. Unless there are any final thoughts that you want everyone out there listening to know about Dune part two, there's silence.
[00:58:09] Speaker B: I feel like it was Ude's favorite movie of all time, right?
[00:58:14] Speaker C: By default, it was the best movie of the year so far.
[00:58:17] Speaker A: Is it the only one you've seen?
[00:58:20] Speaker C: No, but, I mean, its competition is mean girls and Madame Webb. So, like, come on. Dune is. Dune is the top movie of 2024, but I think Dune will remain the top movie of 2024 for a while. I don't know what's going to.
[00:58:39] Speaker A: You should go see Dee Dee, but that's a different category of movie.
[00:58:43] Speaker B: Maybe Deadpool three is the only thing that I could think of that might compete with it this year. As far as making a lot of money, it's going to be a very slow year.
[00:58:57] Speaker C: It is. I have doubts about Deadpool three, though, or another podcast.
[00:59:04] Speaker B: You're not alone.
[00:59:05] Speaker C: I was more hyped for Dune part two than I've been hyped for anything marvel related in over a year.
[00:59:12] Speaker A: I believe that.
[00:59:14] Speaker C: And you guys know how I feel.
[00:59:15] Speaker A: About Dune and the sand.
All right, so thank you all for being here and listening to us as we talked about Dune and how much we really love sand and only sand and nothing else but that. We could talk for many, many more hours, but we have to wrap it up. So who are you people? Why are you here and where can we find you?
[00:59:40] Speaker C: I'm uday. You can find me on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, YouTube, at Golden Ninja 3000.
As for why I'm here, it's because I wanted to talk Dune with you lovely folk.
[00:59:54] Speaker B: It was a really fun conversation, you guys. I had a lot of fun.
I am John Dodson, and you can find my work at the cosmic circus, and you can find me on Twitter at John moviewatch.
[01:00:12] Speaker A: And I'm isla Ruby. You can find me on Twitter at P-U-L-I-N. Rights. And again, this has been the cosmic circle, the official companion podcast to thecosmiccircus.com. Have a wonderful night, everyone. Or day, I don't know. It's all mixed up. Bye.
