The Cosmic Circle Episode 4: Spider-Man! Spider-Man!! Spider-Man!!!

Speaker 0 00:00:00 <silence> Speaker 1 00:00:16 Hello everyone, and welcome back to the Cosmic Circle, the official podcast of the cosmic circus.com. Today we have a very spectacular, superior, amazing Spider-Man. No way, home pregame episode. My name is Vin, and joining me for today's round table discussion are Alex Isla Tucker. Howdy. Speaker 2 00:00:36 I am Alex. I am a writer for the site and I am being forced here against my will. Otherwise, the Multiverses will break. Speaker 3 00:00:43 <laugh>, Speaker 4 00:00:44 Hi, I am ala, I'm a writer for the site and they let me back here. So I'm here. Speaker 3 00:00:50 Uh, hi, I'm Tucker. Um, VIN dragged me here and, um, I will do my best not to waste your time. These Speaker 1 00:00:58 People are not being held in my basement against their will. There's no violence being threatened. We're all loving friends and family. Okay, before we get started, I want to thank all of our supporters on Patreon. If you're not a Patreon yet, please consider signing up today for access to our discord and a fantastic family of fellow fans. In fact, I recently just posted some very special artwork of the Spider-Man villains, so be sure to sign up on Paton if you want to check that out. That's a Cosmic Circus exclusive. Have you guys seen this? Speaker 3 00:01:29 Oh God, Speaker 4 00:01:30 Those are just special. Speaker 1 00:01:32 This is, this is High Art guys, this is a Cosmic Circle exclusive. You'll find This's nowhere else except for honor, Patreon <laugh>. Okay, now, before getting into the Spider-Man movies themselves, Tucker, can you start us off? What was your journey to Spider-Man? Speaker 3 00:01:46 Okay, when you brought this to me, I, uh, felt conflicted. I feel like my answer is a little cliche. I was born in 2002. I'm only 19 years old, so obviously my first introduction to Spider-Man was the Sam Raimi Spider-Man. Two, my, literally the earliest memory in my life is the day that my parents bought Spider-Man two on D V d. For me, those movies are really special. We'll talk about it, obviously, but I was never really the kid to, I wish I did. Now I do. Looking back, I wish I had watched some of those animated shows, but I never did. I was just always a pure hearted Sam Remy Spider-Man fan. When Speaker 1 00:02:23 You were a kid, how many times would you rewatch the D V D <laugh>? Speaker 3 00:02:28 Um, at least. At least. Okay. Being serious. I almost said a million as a joke, but being serious, I probably have watched these movies 30, 40 times each, even just over the last month. I got them on Blu-Ray recently to prepare for No Way Home. And just over the last month alone, every night before bed, I would turn on Spider-Man one and I would just watch it while I'm gonna bed or then it's fun of me two and like it got so bad where I wore myself out and I was gonna watch them in preparation for the podcast. And by the time I got here, I was tired of watching them, so I didn't really get to it <laugh>, so. Speaker 1 00:02:59 That's amazing. Yeah. Hila, what about you? Speaker 4 00:03:01 So I'm older than, than our, our friend here, uh, Tucker <laugh>. So <laugh>, um, I remember seeing the movie The Spider-Man one movie in theaters, and, you know, that was my first experience and I, I'll talk about that a little bit later, but it was an event back then. It was 2002, I was in high school again 'cause I'm older than, than Tucker <laugh>. And, you know, you had the sense of being that you were in this moment, that this was special. And, you know, from then on I was just, you know, obsessed and became a huge fan of the, the franchise. I Speaker 1 00:03:37 Love that. Alex. Speaker 2 00:03:38 I guess that makes me the middle child because I, I'm not as old as I love <laugh>, but I am a little bit older than Tucker. The first memory I think I had was watching Spider-Man one on v h s and, and the funny thing was, at the time, like my version had like Spanish subtitles in yellow, so that was also kind of like the, so we were like watching. I, I remember just watching that and then as a kid watching Spider-Man two in theaters and, and, and I grew up, unlike some people, Tucker, I grew up also with the animated show <laugh>. So it has essentially progressed to the point where I also cast Blaze Spider-Man. So it is pretty much, it would just be an oversimplification to say that Spider-Man is a very big part of my life since my childhood. Speaker 1 00:04:30 That's beautiful. I'll be honest, I, I grew up a DC kid, uh, Superman, the movie watched it all the time. The Batman movies watched them all the time. The animated series watched 'em all the time. For me, I think I, I think Spider-Man 2002 was my first like, Marvel thing ever really? And I was, I was six and that was the perfect age to just get obsessed with it. Oh yeah. Um, I remember, I remember I went to a zoo in DC at the time, and I remember at the zoo there was just this guy in a Spider-Man costume. And I, it, I just loved it. I was like, that is the, that is Spider-Man. He's at my zoo <laugh>. And I remember going to, we had a KB toys like from Hawkeye. I remember going to KB Toys and I got Spider-Man action figures. Speaker 1 00:05:13 I got the Green Goblin action figures. He had the little glider you could take off his helmet, <laugh>, you know, oh man, I, I loved that first Spider-Man movie. And for this podcast, you know, I rewatched all of them. It was my first time watching the rainy movies and the amazing movies pretty much since they, I mean, all the movies, I think it was my first time rewatching them since they came out. Spider-Man One, I think is still my favorite of all these movies. Just wow, everything about I, I just love it so, so, so much. One thing, um, we might talk about later, I also love that Ramey, it felt like he was trying to recreate the, like, good boy scout of Christopher Reed, but for a modern interpretation. Yeah. I don't know. I just, I don't know if it's true to Spider-Man comics, but it was true for me. I loved it. Yeah. Um, so before we, I get too much into it, Isla, I want you to tell me, what do you think about Spider-Man one? Tell me about it. Speaker 4 00:06:03 Well, before you mention that, I just wanna say I am so happy that you mentioned KB Toys because if you were a child of the nineties, you know, that was where you went. You would get wrestling figures, you would get other action figures. So that, you know, warms my heart and seeing that in Hawkeye was awesome. So I said earlier that going to see Spider-Man one in theaters in 2002 was an experience and it was, I think it was like a hundred million dollar box office. And even as you were there, like, it just felt really cool being a part of it. Like the theater was reactive. We were coming off, uh, a couple years of having seen X-Men and, you know, summer blockbusters were still just this cool thing. And it was just amazing seeing it in theaters and hearing the soundtrack, uh, Danny Elfman, it just, I can't even begin to like explain the moment of being there. It was just, it was phenomenal. I still have my ticket stub 20 years later. So Speaker 1 00:06:49 I remember even KB Toys, I got my Batmobile there 'cause I was a DC kid, <laugh>, I didn't even see X-Men. I, spider-Man was my first Marvel ever, ever. Uh, Alex what about you? Speaker 2 00:06:59 To me, spider-Man one out of all of them, like personally I can, and, and we're gonna get to this later on, and I can say objectively that like Spider-Man Two really is like the film that pretty much establishes comic book films as like superhero comic book films as a very big genre. But Spider-Man One for me, continues to be my favorite. Not only because of like Dan Elman and Toby McGuire's interpretation and like Sam Rainey's style and, and all of that. But to me there's also like the, I I don't know if anyone else sees this, but I know a lot of people are excited 'cause there's the chance of seeing Tobi Maguire. But for me, I'm more excited than anything just to see William Defoe return as Green Goblin because that was such an incredible interpretation of a villain to this day as a kid watching Green Goblin, I was so terrified and mortified of the character and just his iconic laugh and being able to see that nowadays. Like, like when I saw the trailer for the first time and I heard his laugh and the pumpkin bomb, I was just like, oh my God, I've been transported to 2003 watching the V H Ss and I have freaking chills up my spine. So I'm just, I I I love that film so much. Speaker 1 00:08:21 Tucker. Speaker 3 00:08:21 Well, I'm glad Ala and Alex brought this up because if I had two things to say about my love for Sam Remy Spider-Man movies and specifically Spider-Man one, it would be Willam Defoe and Danny Elfman because nothing makes me tear up or get goosebumps or just elevate, like listening to the score first, the Spider-Man films in the early two thousands and nothing makes me have nightmares. Like Willem Defoe's portrayal of Norman Osborne one time when I was, I don't even know, probably like four or five, I went to a friend's house and I had a nightmare that, uh, Willam Defoe's Green Goblin was outside the window. And I went home that night because I was so terrified I couldn't handle it. It's just, it's insane. Even though the first movie isn't my favorite. And the franchise, they definitely tapped into something that had not been, had not been tapped into probably ever. I mean, if I had to compare, I did write down in my notes. If I had to compare, I would say that these movies remind me a lot about Tim Burton Batman movies. Like they're kind of timeless and the villains are really iconic and there's just, I feel like there's a lot of similarities there, but the score is just, I, I, I can't, and I hate it because I kind of don't really like Danny Elsman. I think he's kind of got an attitude. I think he's got a chip on his shoulder <laugh>. But Speaker 1 00:09:38 Nowadays, nowadays maybe Speaker 3 00:09:40 Yes, but I I, that score is just insane. Like, I literally can't hear it without getting goosebumps or like, it's, it's incredible. Speaker 4 00:09:49 Two things I think, um, on that. So the music makes the movie, right, and it makes, makes the movie for any movie like Star Wars isn't Star Wars without the soundtracks Spider-Man. So much emotion is, is tied up with that, like you said and about, about the Green Goblin, you know, there's been a lot of criticism about his suit saying that it was kind of cheesy, whatever you think about the suit, he was still creepy as all Get Out. Oh yeah. He's like an amazing villain. He is. You know, I think the definitive goblin. Speaker 2 00:10:16 Yeah. And just one thing I wanna add, I can just imagine like adding to Tucker's Dream. I'm sure he was like dreaming the green goblin outside his window. 'cause he was thinking about that one scene where he Oh yeah. Popped like where he explodes on MA's window. Yeah. Like they're praying. So he was was just waiting for Tucker to start praying just so he could come in and go finish it. Speaker 3 00:10:39 <laugh>. It was awful. I'm being so serious. That's like a defining moment in my life was that night and that nightmare. It's hilarious Speaker 1 00:10:46 For me. There's so much I love about this movie. I'm gonna go actually in detail about the opening credits in just a second. Like just the opening credits I'm gonna gush about. Uh, before I do that, I have some screenshots here. Um, just because I think this movie does more with the visuals. I think all the Amy movies have great visuals, but this one in particular, I think just got really, really special and really inventive. So there's the sequence where like the goblin, it's I think like a surreal dream sequence or something. And there's this really trippy, it's like double goblin exposure where there's like a closeup of the goblin and the goblin standing on a rooftop. No, Speaker 3 00:11:19 It's worse than that. It's, it's worse than that. It's literally a transition. It has nothing to do with anything. If you watch the movie, it's so out of place. It's a jump scare in the middle of nothing. And that is what gave me the nightmare. I swear to God. Speaker 2 00:11:30 <laugh> just throw back to like the fight, throw back to when, when his Friday saving the Old Lady and when he just turns around and you hear the scream. Speaker 3 00:11:39 Yeah. Oh Speaker 1 00:11:40 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh man, I, I love this movie. Um, there's the one where when you see Spider-Man and he has his two eyes and they're reflecting the, the bus of the, the kids and MJ falling. Speaker 2 00:11:50 Can I add to that? Like, in that screenshot you're posting, there's this one thing I've noticed mainly with each Spider-Man and that's that each Spider-Man has like their own setting and color. Like, have you ever noticed that all of the rainy films like Spider-Man, most of the time Toby Maguire Spider-Man is always with like either the sunset or some sort of yellow and orange lighting. Yeah. While Taaz, while the amazing Spark mine's always like in blue. Yeah. And that's something I love about the imagery. 'cause that's just been constant throughout all of those franchises. Speaker 1 00:12:21 Yeah. Would you say the, the home films have a color, Speaker 2 00:12:24 The, the home films don't seem to have a particular color scheme more, they're a combination of both. I've noticed that the Homecoming films are sometimes more saturated than the other two, two franchises. But I've been noticing from time to time there's like blend of both. Sometimes like in the Homecoming films you'll see some sort of yellow lighting, for example, when he is talking to Tony Stark after the, the, the boat incident and there's like that sunset and there's that yellow lighting, but then there's also like some sort of blue setting whenever he's in far from home. So there's a combination of two whenever there's Tom Spider-Man involved. Speaker 1 00:13:01 That's so great. You know, I, I think that's something I, it was always in my head, but I never really wrote that down. That's so, that's so great. Alex Ala do you wanna say something? Speaker 4 00:13:08 Yeah, I think the lighting in the, the Spider-Man, the Ramey films actually really, and particularly in, in like the fight and the action scenes really give it, um, give it a sense of camp. Like it's a throwback back to the old Batman films. It's, it's definitely different stylistically than most of the things you've seen as, as superhero films and, and this genre has evolved. Speaker 1 00:13:29 Yeah. Uh, Tucker mentioned this before. So like I, I mentioned, I felt it had the Christopher Reeb like a Good Boy Scout, good job, kids stay in school. But I, I think also it adds some of the, I don't know, larger than life realism or the, I don't even know how to describe it 'cause it's not gritty. Like, like the I bird films are gritty. Yeah. Speaker 3 00:13:47 I've, I what I told you, uh, in dms the other day was that I felt like, especially in comparison to the web movies, that this Ramy films have like a fairytale quality about them. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> in that ant may is almost like a mythological figure who comes in just in time to deliver a poem or whatever that will get Spider-Man back on his feet. And the villains are larger than life and do supernatural things that no one would expect. And I think that's very in line with the, uh, re films is that like, it's, it is larger than life. I mean, he, he's an icon like Spider-Man means more. And I think that's why those scenes where he goes to Aunt May's house in the second film and she's moving and she, he talks to the kid and the kid goes, do you think Spider-Man will ever come back? Those moments mean so much more than almost any other film. Like I, I think all films, like, you'd be hard pressed to find a moment that's more concentrated in emotional than just a simple line like that. And I think that heavy weight that the Ramey films bring is very unique to these movies. Speaker 1 00:14:49 Yes. You know, I think I I I told you I love the DC films, but I, I honestly think, especially after this last rewatch, I don't know if, if there's any, I don't know if there's any superhero movies that really have the powerful emotions that these Remy films is particularly, particularly Spider-Man one. And I think the last hour of Spider-Man two, I think those are so powerful. Even Spider-Man three had some really emotional moments for me. And, you know, I think the amazing films got a little bit of that. I, I don't know if the homecoming films have any of it, and I don't know where I could find that in other movies. Maybe a little bit in like, Superman, the movie, but I, I would be hard pressed, you know? Yeah. I think the, these Ramey films especially, especially this first one for me, oh God, it's so beautiful. Speaker 1 00:15:34 And the funeral scene at the end and just the music and the emotions. My God, I can't even use words. Um, yeah, I, I have one more image I'm showing you guys. We can, we can post these in the show notes, uh, for our listeners. Just like this super position of after, after Goblin Dies and Spider-Man's in the wreckage and his suit is all broken up, so you can see his face and you can see his emotions. And then it's the super position. It's, it's a transition. You see him just sitting there like mourning a bit, and then you see the, the, the ghost of the goblin. You know, just artistry like that I feel is just missing from anywhere you look. I, I don't even know. Forget superhero movies. Movies, yeah. Speaker 1 00:16:14 Shots. Like, oh my God. I just, this is a photograph. This is, see, I I love this movie, man. Yeah. I'm so sad. I've barely re-watched this in my life. I love this movie, <laugh>. Okay. Okay. I think that is more than good on that. Um, I, I have a so much I wanna say about just the opening credits, so I might just throw that in an article and just share it with the world <laugh>. Um, so let, let's move on. We got Spider-Man two in 2004. Tucker, were you even alive? What, where were you at this time? Speaker 3 00:16:42 <laugh>? Yes, I was alive. All right. <laugh>. Um, well, I, I would definitely go to say that Spider-Man Two is my favorite of the re movies. By, by far. I think that, and I'm sure there will, we will have plenty of time to talk about this later, but I think that three and one fight each other a little bit. As much as I love one, and as much as I love three for different reasons, I think two has always stood out. I think that Otto Octavius is probably the most interesting character in the Ramey films. I think the one scene alone where Peter and Otto are just sitting at a table and they're just kind of having a chat about poems and love and who who are you dating right now? Oh, it's complicated. And he says, oh, well when, isn't it like, who would know is what he says? Speaker 3 00:17:30 I think it's just scenes like that are so perfect to me because, and I, I hate to say this, but I'm gonna say it. I don't think that you would ever find a scene like that in an M C U film. Not one as perfectly written. Like it's so, it's like a, it's like a two minute scene. I feel like it's not long at all, but with perfect efficiency. And I think David Kepp wrote it and they just addressed so much. They add a ton of depth to auto and they establish his entire relationship with his wife in that short little scene, which adds impact to what happens to her later on. Like, just that, that scene alone is what encapsulates my love for this movie is, is just perfect. Speaker 1 00:18:06 Love it. Isla Speaker 4 00:18:08 The relationship with, you know, Otto and Peter in this movie is, is so much different than the relationship between Peter and, and the Green Goblin in the previous movie. Right? Otto is, is this heroic figure to him. He's this guy that Peter looks up to and he, you know, he, he creates this thing, he's trying to do this thing for the good of mankind, you know, which, there are some parallels there to Spider-Man. It ultimately, you know, causes him to go insane. So it's, it's a really interesting, you know, relationship to explore between the two of them. And Dach isn't a bad guy. He's just gone a little bit insane from the mechanical arms and ai. He, he's still redeemable and that makes him a very interesting villain. Yeah. Speaker 1 00:18:48 Ala did you see the recent like villains featurette from No Way Home? Speaker 4 00:18:51 I did not. I have to watch that still. Speaker 1 00:18:53 So in that it, it has Jamie Fox, Alfred Molina, and Willem Defoe, and they're talking about the characters. I, you guys can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Alfred was saying something like, the villains themselves are like characters and they're just, mistakes happen to them and they just, that is just the arc of their character. Just like an accident happens to Spider-Man's making them Spider-Man, an accident happens to Marvel villains to make them Marvel villains. Yeah. It's not, it's not like they're necessarily sinister people to begin with. Alex, would you say the same mm-hmm. Speaker 2 00:19:20 <affirmative>, I would, to me, like the, the one I'm gonna steal this from, like, from your point of view, but I don't recall a movie having opening credits far more interesting than Spiderman two. Oh yeah. That had the Alex Ross art. Oh yeah, that was, yeah. That, that was, that was just like an incredible point than that I recall from those films. And I agree with what Tucker and Isla are saying, like objectively, I can say Spider-Man Two is the best of the, of the three Ringy films for Spider-Man. Not only in the sense of the character development for the villain, but there's also like the character development for Toby. 'cause in that film, like Toby kind of struggles with being Spider-Man and he also like loses his powers for a bit. And he has like this, we see the whole split identity crisis that's usual in the comics. Speaker 2 00:20:13 And then the point of him giving up being Spider-Man before coming back. And it makes him more relatable to audiences, I think, in that second movie than in the first one. Because in the first one it's about this nerdy kid getting his powers In this second one, we kind of see him lower down for a more human version of it and re and we realize that Spiderman is in just this big iconic superhero. He's also a human underneath the suit and underneath the mask. And it's something that I really resonated with Spider-Man too, with more than any of the Spider-Man films in general. Really. So that's what I love about Spider-Man two, Speaker 4 00:20:51 You mentioned Spider-Man two and you know, his loss of powers as kind of being this defining thing. There's some parallels there too with far from home and losing the suit. You know, what is Spider-Man without his powers? What is, what is the M c o's Spider-Man without a suit and exploring that. And that's kind of interesting how they handle it differently. Speaker 1 00:21:10 For me, I don't know if Tucker put this idea in my head or if the idea came naturally, but when I was watching Spider-Man two, I was chatting with Tucker a bit. 'cause 'cause we're Bross <laugh> and I thought, I don't know, I, I think the first hour is really tough on Peter. It's like Harry hates him. MJ starts to hate him. Aunt may hates him when he tells her about how Uncle Ben died. And like nobody is in his corner and everything's turned against him. Even his mentor doc Ach has gone insane. And then you, you have this moment where he starts coming back and then everything comes back and then the last hour of the movie, it's a rock solid. I, I think that for me, I, I suppose is, is the best hour maybe of all Spider-Man though. I, I think I don't like the first hour as much just 'cause it's so tough on him. I just find it hard to be enjoyable. Maybe <laugh>. Yeah. Um, so that's why I still, maybe that's why I still hold Spider-Man one just from start to finish that movie just perfect to me. And I, I think Spider-Man two, it, it, it's a bit tougher in the first hour and then the second hour it, it's, it's like a big rock concert, but the, I don't know, the, the balance is a little off for me. Well, even as a kid, even as a kid, I preferred Spider-Man one Speaker 3 00:22:19 The, the way I see it, and I don't know how other people feel, but the way I see it is that Spider-Man, the original is a movie about Spider-Man. It starts with Peter Parker being a dork. He becomes Spider-Man. And I feel like this movie is the same way in that you're in the shoes of Peter Parker throughout almost the entire movie. Every decision he makes, like, like you said, you use the words, uh, Harry hates him, which is true, but he hates Spider-Man and for Peter, there's no difference in that. Even if Harry doesn't know it. Everything that he says about Spider-Man, Peter is feeling it. And I love that. I love the way they do that. Like, I don't know this movie, it's on another level. Speaker 1 00:22:55 Yeah. I don't know if I've ever seen this talked about anywhere. Alex, can you see my screen? Do you see, have you, have you noticed this before this shot? Speaker 2 00:23:03 Let me see. Uh, not really. I've actually never noticed the transition point 'cause it's such a, it's such one frame that's actually kind of interesting. Really. Speaker 1 00:23:14 Yeah. Yeah. So this is, I'll, I'll put this in the show notes for you guys. This is the scene at the very, very end of the movie. You know, it's like the, the almost the post credit scene. It's where Harry is screaming at Norman in the mirror. So he picks up the dagger, he's looking at Norman and it's one frame each. And these are 24 frames a second. So this is one 24th of a second each. There's six pictures. So the whole sequence is one fourth of a second. So first frame Harry throws the knife. Second frame it cuts to Norman third frame, it is a Norman Harry transition. 'cause it's, it's the mirror. So if you're looking at the mirror at Norman, it transitions to Harry and their faces are superimposed. So it's a weird blend of them. Fourth frame, it's Harry for one frame only, just Harry. Speaker 1 00:24:00 Then it goes back to Norman, uh, a repeat of the early one. And then the sixth frame is the glass shattering. The whole thing is one fourth of a second. 'cause I was watching it and I said, something looks funny. So then I went frame by frame and it blew my mind. So I'll, I'll put the frame by frames in the show notes. I'll also put a little link of the, the actual video clip so you guys can try to watch it and see if you can notice it yourself. 'cause I think just the detail in that, these are one 24th of a second each. Speaker 3 00:24:27 I just watched it. Uh, you can't, you can't see it <laugh> like, unless you really break it down. It's so hard to see. It's perfectly done. I mean, that scene is really great. I love the emotion there. I love the relationship that, uh, Norman and Harry have had through the last two movies. You haven't really touched on it, but I love the way that Norman kind of despises Harry for who he is. And in turn, Harry kind of, I, I get the sense that Harry like just wants a dad <laugh> and Norman is like a businessman who doesn't have time for his private school dropout son who can't maintain grades or whatever. And like the jealousy that Harry feels with Norman and Peter, like the relationship that Norman and Peter have. Like, I feel like that kind of informs how Harry sees Peter throughout the next two movies. Like Yeah, it's a really great scene. I I was really blown away when you pointed that out. Mm-hmm. Speaker 4 00:25:14 <affirmative>, the thing that causes me a bump with, you know, the relationship between Norman and Harry is, you know, all of what you mentioned. Would Harry really, you know, jump into avenging him if this relationship with his father is so complicated because it seems like he would, he'd be more likely to avenge him and want to avenge him if he had a much closer father-son relationship and that's, or or is this, you know, just the, you know, his last attempt at trying to get his father's approval. So the, um, yeah, that's always kind of been a little off for me. Speaker 3 00:25:47 Yeah. The way that I kind of see it. And you, I think they touch on it a little bit in the third movie. I don't, I don't wanna speak confidently on that because I don't remember. But in the third movie, whenever Peter, uh, whenever he's like a douche and has the weird hair <laugh>, um, whenever he approaches Harry in the penthouse, all Harry talks about is how, actually I'm not even sure it's that scene at some point he talks about how Peter stole MJ and how uh, he killed his dad and all that stuff. And I feel like, and I wish they touched on this more 'cause I'll agree with you that I don't think it's very well done. I don't think the Harry Peter relationship is super well done. But I think that it was everything. I mean, Peter, Harry lost Harry Harry had a bad relationship with his dad, found, finds out, his dad is a maniac, finds out his dad was killed by Spider-Man, the person that everyone in the city icons. Speaker 3 00:26:35 And then he finds out that his best friend was actually the one who killed his, uh, dad and his best friend stole his girlfriend and his best friend did all this stuff. Like I wish they did a better job, job building that up and kind of establishing that it was a long road to get to where we are. But instead, every time they fight Harry's just like, you killed my dad. And he's like, no, I didn't. And then Bernard comes in at the end of the third one and is like, actually your dad killed himself. And then it's kind of tied up with a nice little bow. But I definitely agree that it's not as well done as it could have been. What's Speaker 1 00:27:00 Funny is, um, I I actually cheated. I didn't watch Spider-Man three 'cause I was scared. Oh no. <laugh>. So, so I watched the Spider-Man three editors cut, which is supposedly better. I don't know. But in that one, Bernard doesn't tell him. And that one, it it's, it's like implied that Harry figured it out himself. Really? Speaker 3 00:27:16 Um Speaker 1 00:27:17 Hmm. Yeah, I I think to give Harry agency or something, I don't dunno. I would have to watch the Two Cuts side by side maybe to, I'll like better. Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 3 00:27:25 I need to, I'll need to go watch that. But yeah, go ahead. Ala Speaker 4 00:27:27 In Spider-Man three. That definitely, you know, throws you after watching Harry basically destroy himself and suddenly, oh, but wait, you know, your dad died by his own hand. That's kind of, you know, that's one of many things in that movie that I'm sure we'll, we'll get to. Yeah. Another thing that kind of bugs me about Harry and Peter is that, so Peter Parker is essentially a Boy scout. You guys touched on it, you know, in the first movie. He doesn't, he, he's a good guy. But Harry, you know, seems a little bit slimy. He isn't redeeming just as a character. He's not likable. So, you know, it, it's always kind of struck me as odd that Harry and Peter would be best friends. And I don't think that friendship is handled very well and you know, the Ramey Spider-Man movies or the Amazing Spider-Man where he just kind of suddenly pops up, oh, we're old friends. Yeah. Yeah. It's a missed opportunity. Yeah. Speaker 2 00:28:14 Adding to the slimy thing, adding to the note of Sliminess that, uh, ala mentions we have to, it, it has to be determined whether or not that's just Harry as a character or if that's James Franco, but <laugh>, that will be determined. Speaker 1 00:28:29 Yeah, definitely. I, I think both versions of Harry from, from Ramey, from Webb, both are equally slimy to ALA's point, I think. And both of those versions, I can see how he started out as a kid and how he might've seemed like just a normal friendly kid who, who wanted to get away from his rich dad and maybe just be a normal kid. He becomes friends with Peter and then he grows up and he twists into like the slimy, uh, two face kind of. 'cause he has to be one face with Peter, one face with his dad. So with both of those Harry's I can see and the performances, 'cause I, I thought both did a very good job with their roles. I thought both Harry's. I can see how he used to be one way with Peter and now he's turned into this smarmy, slimy two-face hair. Yeah. Alex, what were you saying? Uh, Speaker 2 00:29:15 No, we were, I think we were about to talk about Spiderman three. Right? <laugh> Speaker 1 00:29:20 We're talking about Spiderman three. Oh boy. Alright. Yeah. Speaker 2 00:29:23 Alright. Um, Lizzie, if you're hearing this and you can edit it, do me a favor. Play Funky Soul. Right. <laugh> <laugh>. There. It's Speaker 1 00:29:39 Alright. SS Spiderman three. Speaker 2 00:29:40 Let's go. All right, let's talk about it. Write this on my tombstone Rainy fans. If you somehow ever get to listen to this, I'm sorry. Uh, spider-Man three is an example of what happens when studios get too much power over a filmmaker. Now that is the only way I can properly say this next line. Spider-Man three is the worst out of all of the Ramey films. Not saying it's bad just compared to the other two. It's questionable. <laugh>. There are things, there are things about Spider-Man three I enjoy, mainly somewhat a little bit of the Arc Peter goes through as a hero, but Beth Peter wasn't executed wrong. It was just, some of it was a little bit questionable in the way the Symia was handled for the film. 'cause I know every, like, Sony really wanted Jen to be like the villain of this movie. Speaker 2 00:30:35 And yeah. And it's just so much of the stuff that they tried to like jam in here pretty much messed up the way Sam Rainey wanted to tell the story, which was like focusing on Harry and, and his original vision. So it was, it was a little bit from what happened. Sam Rainey handled it well, I'll give it that. Something that I am impressed by, especially from films in 2007, is how advanced Sam Remy was in cinematography and visual effects. Yeah. The way that Sandman was executed in that film was absolutely phenomenal. And not only like in the sequence when he's like trying to grab like the, when he's in that giant puddle and he's experimented on and he becomes Sandman and he's trying to grab that pendant with his daughter and it just keeps slipping through his fingers like sand. That was just incredible cinematography. And not even to mention the visual effect of when Toby and Sandman are fighting in the train in like the subway station and he jams his face through the train and I, I still to this day have no idea how the hell they did it, but his face just half of it disappears. And I'm like, wow. Yeah. Wow. <laugh> Speaker 1 00:31:49 The effects are, I, I noticed this immediately there. There's a stark contrast. The first two movies are so practical, you know, maybe occasional c g I, you almost don't see it. This third one I felt there was so much c g i everywhere. I felt like nothing really looked real. Even even the the glider battle with, with Harry. I thought that didn't look that real. Yeah, I didn't. Yeah. Sandman, my God. And with, with the music, it's not even elfman. It, it's some, someone else, I think I don't Christopher Yost or something, but the music was so perfect and the effects are so good. Sandman was amazing. Um, ALA what were you saying? Speaker 4 00:32:22 No, I, so I I also have a lot of feelings about Spidey E three. Um, but it's, you know, not so much the, not so much the effects for me. I think that when you said, when Alex when you said that it was like Spidey by studio, you're a hundred percent on, on Target there. This is the, the Spider-Man three is Spidey by committee and it doesn't work. I think you lose what Peter Parker is because in this movie he's unlikable even before, before the Symia, you know, he doesn't, he's not the Boy Scout that he was Yeah. In the previous movies, his his goodness we're not rooting for him. We don't like him even before Venom. Yeah. There's a really, so there's one moment I'd love to talk about that I think kind of encapsulates this. And it's when he kisses Gwen, and that's like a hundred percent that, you know, that ruins that version of, of Peter Parker in the movie for me because, so in the other movies there's a whole lot of kissing and cheating going on. But Spider-Man, Peter Parker himself never like, never betrayed mj Yeah. And here he does. And it's just, you know, for a stunt and it's just so, it feels so careless and so it, it's so out of place. Yeah. Speaker 1 00:33:25 Why do you guys think he did that? He, that wasn't even black suit Spider-Man, that was just no Spider-Man spider. Right? Why do you think that he did it? I, Speaker 3 00:33:32 I will agree. There is a lot of characterization issues in this movie. I think that they start to lose a lot of the characters and I think it's pretty funny that they kind of mess up. I say Mess up. He's a bit of a, I mean, he's a bad boyfriend ultimately. That's the point of the movie, is that he's a bad boyfriend and they, like, there's one scene in specific what's after there's a bad review after there's a bad review in mjs play. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and MJ goes to Peter and Peter just immediately talks about Spider-Man. He's like, well, you can't let the critics get you down and you can't, whatever. And MJ is just like begging him, like, just listen to me. I don't need you to try to fix my problem, just like, let me vent to you. And it, there is a lot of that. Speaker 3 00:34:10 There is a lot of Peter just kind of messing up and not being a good guy. But ultimately I think I'm probably in the minority. I think that Spider-Man three has my favorite emotional moment in this series, right at the end of the third movie when Peter goes into that jazz bar that MJ is singing at and there's like one specific shot that literally just like makes my heart melt. And Peter just extends his hand up to her while she's on stage and she just reaches down and grabs it. And I almost wish that it cut to black as soon as they touch hands because I think that would've been perfect. But I think that that scene alone just gives me all the goosebumps and makes me feel real warm inside. Love the way that they, they come out the other side of this movie feeling stronger. I I think that a couple choices they make are bad. I don't like that Peter punches MJ <laugh> like Peter straight up assaults MJ at one point in this movie. And I think that's a really weird choice to make for your movie about a superhero for children. Um, yeah. Speaker 1 00:35:05 I mean I, I I feel like it, it does show how, how wrong he's become. Speaker 3 00:35:10 Yes. I, I agree. Speaker 1 00:35:12 Is it the best way to show that Speaker 3 00:35:13 It No, it feels like, it feels like a lazy What does bad? What do bad people do? Oh, they hit their girlfriends. Okay. Peter will hit his girlfriend and everyone will realize that he's a bad person. Like, I feel like it was a lazy way for them to get their point across instead of putting the work in. And I think ultimately that's because Sam Raimi very loudly did not want to put Venom in this movie <laugh>. And so he was forced to do a lot of stuff that he didn't want to do to do. And I mean, coming down to it, you guys are absolutely right. This is a studio movie first. And Sam Raey was kind of bummed out. Not only Speaker 2 00:35:43 I'm gonna add to this, I wanna add to this really, really quick mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm <affirmative> Toby was a bad boyfriend. Yep. But Kirsten was a worst MJ and you cannot deny that to me. <laugh>, geez. That woman was just, oh my God. Listen, MJ Kirsten dumps MJ throughout the entirety of the films. The way she toys with Peter though, <laugh> like a lot, let's be honest, she loves Spider-Man. She didn't love Peter. Speaker 3 00:36:13 I think, Speaker 3 00:36:15 I think the one scene that, the one scene that makes me agree with you and I disagree mostly, I think MJ is a pretty strong character even if I don't love some of the choices they make. But I think the one scene that I'll agree with you that's like really messed up and always makes me cringe is at the beginning of Spider-Man two, after everyone disperses from Peter's birthday party, he meets MJ in the backyard of his house and she's talking to him and she's almost kind of like trying to get him to like, hit on her or like trying to get him to like rekindle what they had at the end of the first one. And as soon as he denies it, she just goes, well I'm with someone right now. And it, that is the one moment where I was like, okay, so she's kind of manipulative and not really a good person. Like, I don't want them to be together anymore. <laugh>. Like they do, they, that is the one scene I'll agree with you where it's kind of uncomfortable and weird. Speaker 1 00:37:02 I have a couple quick thoughts then we gotta move to, uh, the amazing series. Uh, first thought I agree with you guys about mj. I don't know if this from her performance or from the writing, but for me, the music continually sold it. So even if I don't like what's actually happening, the music always pulled my heart. So I even in Spider-Man three, I think the romance, it, it still moves me in a way. Um, also Spider-Man three Hot Take, maybe it's from the editor's cut. I don't know. I thought the first hour was okay. I thought they set up the villains pretty well. I thought the second hour they didn't know how to finish it. So for me it, it feels like they set up a much bigger movie and then they didn't know how to contain it. So it just implodes on itself at the end. Speaker 4 00:37:41 One thing that they did do really well that, you know, we kind of alluded to was the Sandman and you know, you can say whatever you wanna say about his effects, but he was a very emotionally compelling, uh, villain. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, he, he was robbing banks and you know, stealing to help his sick kid. You don't get much more grounded and you know, you you, you kind of are rooting for the Sandman 'cause he is doing it for his family. Yeah. Speaker 3 00:38:04 Yeah. Speaker 1 00:38:05 Alright, so after, you know, some more studio battles stuff hit the fan. Uh, everyone left from Spider-Man four, eventually Sony rebooted 10 years after Spider-Man won Eyelet. What are your thoughts on the amazing Spider-Man one with Mark Webb and Andrew Garfield? Well, Speaker 4 00:38:20 To start off, I don't think we necessarily needed another origin story and we got more of the origin story here. Oh yeah. So that was kind of not, not as interesting to me as a viewer. One thing that I thought they did really well was the relationship between Peter and Gwen. I think that, you know, the actors had great chemistry. It was really well developed. The, the relationship with Peter and Gwen's dad was just superb. And I, that was something I thought that the amazing Spider-Man movies just got was top notch with. Speaker 3 00:38:48 Yeah, I completely agree on all fronts. Um, I think that they kind of went, they, they kind of did a weird thing. Everyone was kind of tired of the origin story. So instead of getting rid of the origin story, they made the origin story the entire first hour of the movie. And it's really exhausting. By the time you get to the end of it, you're just like, oh, he has the spider suit now. Can we get to the end of the movie like <laugh>? It's super tiring. And I, I I agree. I think their chemistry is really great. I think that, um, yeah, what's his name? Dennis Leary. I think Dennis Leary turns in a really great performance. I love, I, there was one specific shot, um, I had it on in the background the other night and there was one specific shot where it's at the end of the movie when they catch him and he's sitting down on the ground and he's about to dem mask Peter because he finally caught him and you could, they kind of do like a sweeping shot behind Captain Stacey as he goes and rips off the mask. Speaker 3 00:39:38 And it was like, it kind of caught my, it kind of caught my attention for a second. It kind of took my breath away. I was really impressed. They do a lot of interesting stuff with both of these movies and I think this movie is a good start. But yeah, they definitely wasted far too much time on the origin story Speaker 2 00:39:54 To me. I'm gonna have to play Devil's advocate again. I see <laugh>, uh, to Speaker 3 00:39:58 Me, Speaker 2 00:39:59 To me like the, the reasoning why they probably did the origin story as much as they did to me. Look, I, I think the amazing Spiderman wine was done so drastically different because everyone wanted films and everyone had gone accustomed to you. You just had three films of Sam Rainey, there was gonna be a fourth one, that one got canceled. So they had to make a new one. And I think they did that origin story in the sense to try to sell to the audience someone else can be Peter Parker and, and, and just go in a direction that was different from what the Rainey films have done before. In the sense that Andrew Garfield's Spider-Man was more like, yeah, he was, he was not necessarily the same type of Boy Scout that Toby was. He was more of a little bit more relatable to the modern teenager, I suppose, was the skateboarding and the outfit, which I know is like a point that everyone likes to usually comment. Speaker 2 00:40:58 Oh, Andrew's the cool Spider-Man because he skateboards. But I really like the way that in it showed Andrew and you, you see this often more in like the second one as well. It showed Spider-Man being more quippy in the sense of like the comics. 'cause like Rainey was a little bit more serious often at times while fighting. You could often have like Andrew Spiderman just be very quippy and make pun while fighting. And that was like really, that was really taking material not only from the comics but also like the animated series at times when they would like make whips, for example, Andrew's first interaction with like the, the robber. And he, and like the robber asked him, are you a cop? And he goes, really? You think I'm a cop in a red and blue suit? So like it's those small moments like that that really define not only Andrew Garfield's Spider-Man as a completely different character from Toby's, but also is recognizable as Spider-Man in his own way. And that's something that I think the amazing Spider-Man films excelled at with Andrew Garfield's portrayal. Speaker 1 00:42:05 Yeah. I really, really love the chemistry between Andrew and Emma. I think it, it might be my, my favorite couple from all the movies. Speaker 2 00:42:12 Don't we all <laugh>? Yeah. Speaker 1 00:42:14 Yeah. I, I think The Amazing Spider-Man, it one, it, it suffers when it's trying to retell the Ramey movies. Like the whole thing with getting Uncle Ben's killer again. Like come on man, we the, you can't top what, what Spider-Man One did, but they still try to do this weird, I felt a lot, they, they tried to redo parts of that movie and I'm not a fan, I'm also not a fan of some new things like the secret agent Richard Parker <laugh>. But when, but when it's, it's trying to just be a Spider-Man movie. I think it, I think it, it's pretty cool. Um, there's one, there's one moment I'm, I'm showing I'll add this in the show notes. One moment when he's on the train right after he gets bitten and he starts getting these flashes and basically it's the train, again, this is frame by frame that they did the same weird thing. Speaker 1 00:42:58 It was one frame each, it's the train going through the train tracks and it's, it, it flashes of red and blue intercut with the spiders from OSS Corp. And, and then it, and then it cuts to his d n a. So for me it's like the, the train is the, the spider powers going through the train tracks, going through his veins and it, it's these shots. So it's like blue train, blue spider, red train, d n a. It's just like subliminal messaging to say this train is the spider powers going through his blood system. And like, that is cool. That is wicked cool. And I, I just wish the movie really thrived with that inventiveness more, uh, instead of trying to retell the same story we already knew, but in a lot of elements I do like how it's still the classic Peter Parker. Everything slightly changed, but like in the context of the multiverse, you can see how this is another version of that same Toby McGuire and of the later Tom Holland. You can see how these three guys are three versions of the same boy just in different worlds. And I think, I think that'll be so cool if No Way Home really gives us all three Spider-Man, it'll be so cool to see these three mirrors of kind of the same guy with kind of the same life, but from three different worlds. Speaker 4 00:44:06 So I'm curious to see how, um, no way Home handles the lizard because in the, in the Amazing Spider-Man movie, the lizard I think is, you know, Curtis Connors is a little bit of a miss with his motivations after he becomes, you know, full, full on Lizard man, you know, he, he's lost his arm. He's kind of being driven by this, this desire and need to get his limb back. He's also kind of motivated a little bit because he's kind of been an outcast at Osco. He's under a lot of pressure from, um, Norman Osborne, who I think we see in the first movie. But I know we definitely see as he, you know, dies in the second movie, he has a lot of professional ground to make up. So he injects himself with this, this thing that makes him, you know, grow his limb. And all of a sudden, like his mo the thing he wants most in life is to make a race of lizard people instead of <laugh>. And I, I just, that that, that's jarring to me. I like it. It doesn't seem to quite fit Speaker 1 00:45:09 <laugh>. I do love how just wacky sci-fi that is and I wish, I wish we saw a shot of New York, like half infested with lizard people. I really wish they went like full just wacky sci-fi with that. Um, but we gotta move on. Oh, one last thing before we move on. Chasm One, why does he walk around? Why, why does Connors walk around with a stump? Man doesn't even get himself a prosthetic. He works at a science company. They have all kinds of bionic stuff. They, they have an exo suit for Goblin later on. Why doesn't he not have any kind of prosthetic or anything? I'm just, I'm just asking. Alright. Chasm two tucker, tell me about it. Speaker 3 00:45:49 Um, oh boy. Okay. I have a lot of feelings about this movie. I think that, I think it's kind of underrated. I like the, I like a lot of what they do. I think, like you said, I think that the special agent Richard Parker bull crap is like way overblown. And every time, I mean, I hate that they open the movie with it because like, it makes it feel like they're trying to imbue this feeling of importance on us, even though we all know that it doesn't mean jack crap. And instead we just sit there and waste our time watching something that really doesn't matter to the rest of the movie. I'm of the opinion that if you cut the Richard Parker stuff out entirely, like cut out the opening scene, cut out the scene later on where he finds the coins in his calculator or whatever mm-hmm. Speaker 3 00:46:40 And then cut out the scene where he goes inside the train, like cut out all that stuff. It's probably like 20, 30 minutes. This movie is excellent. I really do think that, I think that there is a lot of weird stuff that they do. Sure. I, I agree that Harry's relationship with Peter is a little off. I don't think they do a good job establishing that. I think that Electro is kind of dorky, but in the same way that I love Batman forever, I stand by this in the same way that I love Batman forever. I think this movie is exactly the same. I think I love the exaggerated skyline of New York City. I love the way Peter swings around it. I love the colors in this movie. Like after the first movie being so kind of dark and drab, this movie is really bright and beautiful and I think the scene, I think Speaker 1 00:47:20 Do you get whiplash from that? From, from the difference between the two movies? Speaker 3 00:47:23 I do. I do a little bit and I, it only makes me watching, uh, spider-Man two, I think it amazing Spider-Man two, I think it only makes me wish that amazing Spider-Man one was more like that. And I think that they were so focused on the, on the kind of, I don't even know how to describe it, like the down on his luck life of the outcast Peter Parker, that the whole movie's style just kind of followed along with it. And the movie was kind of darker and his suit was kind of whatever. But it, I don't, I, the point is I really love how colorful this movie is. I love how Comic Booky it feels, I, I don't know how I feel about, uh, Peter and Gwen's relationship. I think that they kind of tried to sidestep a decision that they made in the last movie and it kind of drags on. Speaker 3 00:48:09 'cause at the end of the movie he's like, oh, I won't date her anymore because I don't want to bring danger. But then the, like a lot of this movie is dedicated to him kind of just stalking Gwen <laugh>. Like, so I don't know. I don't know how I feel. I really love this movie a lot and I think that it gets a lot of crap. But I think rightful crap. I mean, there's a lot of junk in this movie that could be shaved off. I just, I like it so much that I'm willing to put in the effort to look past it. One Speaker 1 00:48:33 Quick point, uh, remember also SMM one was 2012, right? So that's in the wake of the Nolan Films, and that's like right before we got the 2015 Fan four Stick. So it, I think I really appreciate how even in they tried to make it dark in this night aesthetic and whatever, but I like that the heart of Peter is still good. He, he's in a more modern world. It's a little more broken, but his heart, he's still good kid. Peter Parker, and I'm, I'm AO okay with that. Alex, what are you think, Speaker 2 00:49:02 To me, ties two, is it, it, I feel the same way Tucker does in a way, in the sense that it is a jumble and there are certain things that I would take out of it, like the whole Richard Parker secret agent thing, because I know they were just going off that what if comic of what if Richard Parker was the secret agent? But, uh, to me there was this, there's a lot of things about this film that I really enjoyed. First off, it, it gives us the best Spiderman suit, in my opinion, period. Because it's the most comic actor, the colors, the facial lenses. It's perfect. Speaker 3 00:49:39 Yep, I Speaker 2 00:49:40 Agree. And the, the visuals, the cinematography, the effects. And, and, and there was also this one comment about there are two different things in Townsend. We talked about this earlier, about how the music makes the character. And there are times when, like, for example, I, I listened to James Horner's theme, and it's, and it really is to me the more prevalent theme for the Amazing Spider-Man, but the Amazing Spider-Man two theme from how Zimmer is just incredible as well. And not only that, but it's probably the first time that a villain's theme is more impactful in the sense that I think it was, I, I know a lot, I think I'm in the minority with this, but I really loved the, the, the Doug Steppy thing. <laugh> for Electro. Yeah. And it, like the combination of strings and electronic music was just something that I absolutely loved. Speaker 2 00:50:37 And And the voices. The voices in his head. Yes. Yeah, the voices in his head as well. And there was one particular adding one more thing. Everyone knew the moment, screenshots of this film were gonna come out, Gwen was gonna die because of the damn code. Everyone knew this was gonna be like, oh, they're gonna kill Gwen Stacey in this movie. But talking about Gwen in this part, in, at least in the sense of this film, there was I adding to going to contrast with Tucker here on what he mentioned with Gwen, and like Andrew stalking with her, which, which is true, she, he does stalk her, but he's conflicted between his feelings of he wants to be with her, but he keeps having these flashback with his, with with the father, which to me was shocking. Like, I remember seeing the movie in theaters and like the first time he has like this vision of Gwen's dad in the police car. Speaker 2 00:51:32 And I was like, wait a minute, aren't you dead <laugh>? And I was like, panicked. I'm like, whoa, what happened here? And it, and it really like cements this idea of, he wants like the contrast again, the contrast of Peter Parker and Spiderman and trying to balance these lives. And at the end he goes, I'm not gonna let someone dominate my love life or dominate how I feel. I love when Stacey and I will do my best to protect her. And what those choices eventually lead to. And then there's this, there's also this, we never mentioned this, but there's this one line that's always been throughout the, the amazing Spider-Man films, which is promises being made and promises being broken. And there's this line from TA one, which is like, Mr. Parker, you can't, uh, you can't make promises you can't keep Yeah. And he responds. Those are the best kind. Yeah. And then it continues on with like Taan one, he promises like Gwen's dad that he was gonna stay away from her and keep her safe. And we really go into the sense of what happens when you break that promise and it ends with Gwen's death. And to me that was just fantastic storytelling and foretelling from Mark Webb and the screenwriters. Yeah. And I just, I just love that Speaker 4 00:52:48 There are consequences to the promise being broken and the film really, you know, explores that. Well, you, you don't just get off without there, you know, being, being any resulting pain. Back to talk a little bit about Electro, I think again, he's a villain that we kind of almost root for too. You know, he's a guy that's really been overlooked and this kind of downtrodden, you know, his boss and he's played by the same guy who plays Ryan from the office. I always forget his real name. Yeah. But you know, I think those interactions just, we can empathize so much with that. Like, everyone's had a crappy boss and this boss is just particularly cruel. So I think, you know, electro is really, really fun. Speaker 1 00:53:26 One criticism, I I have, it's a little bit strange. Um, when, when May is telling Peter the, like, the truth about his dad and how his dad left, Peter immediately believes the lie that like Richard Parker lied and blah, blah, blah. But he, I think in the first movie, or earlier in, in Chasm too, he's already cynical of Scorp. He has a line, I, I don't know, some line in like the elevators or the closet or something like about how OSS Corp is covering things up. And so I don't understand why he's so upset when May tells him Richard Parker did all these terrible things when he already knows Scorp is a shady company that does shady things. Why wouldn't he immediately suspect that maybe this was the lie? I don't know. It's one wrinkle, Speaker 3 00:54:04 I'll say this because I do hate the Richard Parker stuff. I've made that very clear. I will go to my grave and like you, like you said, I will have go away Richard Parker engraved on it. But I think there's a big payoff to that storyline. And I think that the scene where May approaches Peter about his, or maybe he, maybe he approaches her about the obsession that he has. And he's like, why don't you tell me the truth? And then Mai just breaks down and she pleads with him, you're my boy, you're my boy. It literally makes me cry every single time. I can't handle it. Like, I don't, it's not the story. It's not, I, I mean maybe it's the writing maybe that maybe that just got me real good acting. Maybe it's the Speaker 1 00:54:44 Acting acting Speaker 3 00:54:44 Too Yeah. About say, yeah, the acting is really great that I hate the whole storyline, but if that is what we get because of it, then maybe I'm okay with it because it's really well done. And I just, it makes me appreciate the movie a little bit more when it can do things like that. Speaker 1 00:54:59 I feel like in general, the, the Rainy trilogy is so rich with emotions and I feel the web movies, they still give you, I don't know if it has the same highs or the same lows, but I still felt a lot of powerful heart and emotion and romance, or I felt things in those, in the home movies. I, I don't feel it as much as they're fun and entertaining, but I don't, I feel like each franchise, it loses some of the, the heart of, of Spider-Man, but Webb I think is is is in some kind of middle ground, I think Isla. Speaker 4 00:55:26 Yeah, I think, um, going back to that scene with May where she says that he's, he's her boy, you know, Richard Parker wasn't a good dad. He left his son, you know, may and, and Uncle Ben just really stepped up in a big way. And that's so powerful. Speaker 1 00:55:40 Yeah. Alright, so that was Tasso two, 2014 <laugh>. Just the next year it was announced that Spider-Man would be joining the M C U and he would be reboot Andrew Garfield out. So we got Spider-Man joining Captain America's civil War, the first time Spider-Man was ever in an ensemble onscreen. Alex, what do you think about the Rousso Spider-Man? So Civil War, Avengers three, Avengers four. Speaker 2 00:56:04 So there's always like this one major difference between the way the Roussos and interpreted Spider-Man, while at the same time John Watts interpreted Spider-Man. So the way Watts interpreted Spider-Man was Spider-Man centered into his own world. Like he's Spider-Man is in the M C U, but it's a more story focused on him. Now the Russo is on the other hand, what they did was they took Spider-Man from his world and didn't make him the complete focus. The focus of like, for example, captain America, civil War of Avengers, infinity War of Avengers <inaudible>. He was a character amongst a much larger story. And in a universe where we've literally seen characters that are, we've had Gods and, and monsters and super soldiers and whatever, it was nice to see a character that was more relatable to this story and make it a little bit more realistic, I think in the sense that's what I think the Russos tried to achieve, trying to make Spider-Man like the more grounded aspect. Speaker 2 00:57:14 There's a line in Infinity World where he goes, you can't be your friendly neighborhood Spider-Man if there's no neighborhood. Like Tom's version, at least with the Russos is that one character that's like really grounded. And he, he's just fantastic when he's with the Russos. Notice how I didn't mention what I have an issue really quick. I have to go, I'm just gonna go over those films really quick because I I have to go. So Spider-Man Homecoming was, it was a very, very incredible reboot in trying to tell a Spider-Man story without delving too much into his origin. We talked about this earlier, I think it's the first Spider-Man story where we don't really delve that much into his origin, but we we're already just in the middle of it. And I really love how that's kind of like the starting point for this Spiderman. He's Spiderman, he's struggling with his reality and who he is and all of the things that he has to do and like trying to balance his love life with being a hero. And then just to me, I think the Michael Keaton as Vulture was just incredible casting. And to me, I rarely get surprised at these movies because I often like theorize and often I'm write, but the whole vulture is when Vulture is Liz's dad. That was like the most shocking moment for me and I just absolutely loved that. It's a great moment. Speaker 1 00:58:36 Yeah. What, what's your fa is that your favorite moment in the movie? Speaker 2 00:58:39 Yes. Just the, the Twist. I was like, oh shit, I literally screamed at in a giant as theater <laugh>. Speaker 1 00:58:46 Yeah. Oh, what, what's so cool about? It's not really something that boiled, but it's not something that any comic fan knew. It's, nobody knew that without saying the movie. 'cause it's just such an original idea. It's fantastic. Yeah. What do you think about far from home? Speaker 2 00:58:59 Far from home really is a departure. First off, I'm just, I love the fact that we finally got to see my favorite comic book Bill made to life The Fishbowl. That's like the number one thing. I was most looking forward to this when I saw far from Home and that Jake Jim Hall was cast as Mysterio. I was like, I really need the fishbowl in this movie <laugh>. And I'm just glad that we got the, the opportunity to see Mysterio, uh, in this film. And not only that, but the visuals with Mysterio Effects and illusions was just absolutely incredible and phenomenal. And to me, I think the biggest surprise of it all was the post credited scene when Spider-Man's identity is revealed at the end of the film, because that's something that's never been done before in Spider-Man films. So it was, it's nice to see that Marvel took risks with the character and, and they're about to pay off with Spider-Man. No way. Home Speaker 1 00:59:58 In general. Did you like far from home or homecoming better? Speaker 2 01:00:03 You can't ask me that question. <laugh> Speaker 1 01:00:05 As in, as in they're both good. Speaker 2 01:00:07 Oh God. Uh, objectively Homecoming is better, but personally I love Far from Home more. Speaker 1 01:00:14 Great answer. Great answer. All right. No way. Home and the future of Spidey in the M C U, what do you, what do you think is coming next for Spider-Man after this movie comes out? Speaker 2 01:00:26 I can't answer that question without delving into sports. I'm kidding. <laugh>. Um, no, but we have right now the tease with Benon. So there is definitely going to be, we're definitely gonna get a syn storyline starting after no home. Like maybe Spiderman four or maybe one of the Spiderman series is gonna delve into that. We're definitely gonna get a college trilogy at this point 'cause he's about to go to college. And I think that we're definitely gonna see a new set of characters delved into this world with him and make it more centralized. 'cause now that the multiverse is opened, pretty much anything can be possible. We could see more obvious, we could see other characters return at some point, not only in the M C U but also in other Sony franchises. You have Miles Morales and across the Spider verse you have the potential to have an old man styled reboot of Toby McGuire's Spider-Man. At least one more spinoff. There's the possibility of the amazing Spider-Man also continuing later on at some point. But that all depends on how no home progresses. And honestly, I think we're in, we're in to have Spider-Man for a really long time. Speaker 1 01:01:38 <laugh>. Hmm. I I have this crack bot theory that Venom Three will be a Spider-Man Venom crossover. Do you have any thoughts on that, that you can share? Speaker 2 01:01:48 I originally was gonna write an article about that that was called Spider-Man Maximum Carnage. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But that theory clearly went out the window for some reasons that I can't explain. But I will say, I don't necessarily agree in the sense that Venom Three is going to be a Spider-Man crossover film, mainly because I think they're gonna try to set up Venom as the lethal protector and try to do more with the character and explore more of his background before including Spider-Man. So there's a chance that we could get a Venom three and interact with Spider-Man. But I feel like a Venom Spider-Man crossover is, is a film in itself. So I think it's gonna be another film entirely. Speaker 1 01:02:33 All right. That's great man. Uh, do, do you have some more time or do you need to go now? Speaker 2 01:02:38 I have to kind of go really quick love, but, uh, thank you guys so much for having me. I appreciate, y'all are awesome and I hope you guys have a wonderful day and thank you for listening to the podcast. Speaker 3 01:02:49 Yeah, you too. Speaker 2 01:02:50 Thank you. Alright, Speaker 1 01:02:51 See you Alex. Thanks. All right. Ala what did you think about Homecoming? Speaker 4 01:02:55 All right, so I'm gonna talk about, you know, our villain again. 'cause apparently I like, I I just think of the bad guys and that's, that's my thing, <laugh>. Um, so I think I, I really enjoyed Homecoming, like it was mentioned. I think that it is again, um, more friendly neighborhood Spider-Man. He is, he's in his element in New York, whereas in Civil War he was, um, a small fish in a big pond surrounded by, you know, all these major Avengers. Um, I think that, you know, the Holland portrayal of Spider-Man is just super charming and super endearing. Um, I think he comes off much younger than the other Spider-Man. Spider-Man <laugh>. And, you know, considering that so much of this is in high school, that's, that's a good thing. Um, you know, to talk about the Vulture, I think that he's a compelling villain because again, he's motivated by his family just like Sandman was. And it's hard to, hard to hate someone when they're doing something just to take care of their family. There's this scene where, you know, Michael Keaton playing The Vulture kind of turns around in the car when Liz and Peter are on the date. And that's so creepy and well done. And I just, I think that's my favorite scene in the whole movie. Speaker 1 01:04:03 Such a great scene. And the, the lights of the stoplights are changing on his face, like it's red and then turns green and then you see his eyes in the mirror and it's like a horror movie for just Oh, a great Speaker 4 01:04:14 Thing. So tense. Speaker 1 01:04:15 Yeah. Uh, Tucker, what do you think? Speaker 3 01:04:18 Um, I don't know if you would call me the minority because I feel like these, I feel like the public opinion on these movies is kind of, I mean, I don't know. They made a billion dollars. I wouldn't call that split. It's pretty straightforward. People like these movies. I don't love these movies. I don't really hate 'em either. I'm kind of indifferent. I agree. I really love that Peter feels really young. He feels kind of inexperienced and immature and I feel like they've done a pretty good job keeping focus on the idea of him kind of slowly. I maturing the first movie. He takes it upon himself to stop a big, I don't know, what would you call it? A crime ring, I mean a flying bird from, uh, robbing Tony Stark's plane. I mean, that's a really big step. And I think that they do a really good job at portraying that. I, I think they're, I don't know. I really, I can't, I am indifferent. It's hard to come up with something to complain about or compliment about when I feel indifferent that these movies are weird. Speaker 1 01:05:11 Do or do you feel that you're leaning more positive or or negative? Or are you just they're movies. They exist Speaker 3 01:05:18 <laugh> I mean, kind of that I I am am positive. I'll, I'll say that. I'll agree. I it is positive. I, I like, especially this movie, I think Michael Keaton for sure carries this movie. I love the idea that he's kind of just like a blue collar guy who mm-hmm. <affirmative> got screwed by Tony Stark and now he has to like, he literally has to fight for his family's wellbeing. And I kind of like the idea that he's gotten carried away with it and now his family lives in a rich colonial house in the suburbs of New York and he's no longer doing this for the wellbeing of his family, but he is kind of just doing it 'cause he likes to do it. And, Speaker 1 01:05:54 You know, you know, just real quick, I I just, I just thought of, uh, Walter White from Breaking Bad. Yeah, yeah. And his arc. And it's, I mean, it's not the crazy that, crazy that, but why not? You know, it's similar. Speaker 3 01:06:05 I would say that it's probably more crazy because I've never seen Walter White vaporize a guy because he said that he was gonna tell his wife what he does. Like, Speaker 1 01:06:13 Oh, oh, well, you know, there's that scene with the acid in the bathtub. Speaker 3 01:06:17 Yep. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fair enough. <laugh>. Fair enough. But like, I do, I I do agree though. I mean, Michael Keaton I think kind of gets, not thrown outta the bus, but a little overshadowed. The MCUs is a really big place. There's a lot of people who act in it. So I think when looking at the grand scheme, it's hard to go, this guy does a really great job, but I, I think he does. I think Michael Keaton kind of owns this movie. Speaker 1 01:06:39 Dangerous Question for you two. You, you've both seen Chung Chi, right? Speaker 3 01:06:42 Uh, yes. Speaker 1 01:06:43 Yes. Tony Leon's Mandarin, uh, Michael Keaton's Vulture. Which villain did you like better? Do you, do you think they're both just fantastic or do you think one <crosstalk> Speaker 3 01:06:52 Together? Um, I, I'll say, uh, Tony Leon, definitely. I think that the Mandarin, I don't know, I don't wanna get too much into it 'cause we're obviously we're having a different discussion, but I will definitely say Tony Leon, but I don't think that's a knock on Michael Keaton. I think my, I think Michael Keaton did a great job. I think they're just two fantastic all-time actors who did their work on a Marvel Studios movie. Speaker 4 01:07:12 Yeah. I think they both did a phenomenal job. Um, if, you know, looking at the story, I find, you know, the Vulture much more redeeming than, than the Mandarin just because, you know, the Mandarin killed millions of people or thousands of people over, like all of these these years. Yeah, yeah. And you know, the Vulture at the end ultimately like, doesn't do a heel turn, but like he, he protects Spider-Man while he is in jail. He's still redeemed. And I don't think that the Mandarin has been redeemed at all. Speaker 1 01:07:40 Yeah. I don't know if I could, I I feel like they're, they're kind of comparable and like this, their strength. I don't know if I could, I I know it's cheating. I asked you guys the question, but I can't answer it. But I, I love them both. Well, I'll, I think Tony Leon, I don't even know if he's human, the, the way he performs with his eyes. No one can touch that. Speaker 3 01:08:00 Yeah. I mean, thematically they're a little different though. Tony Leon, his, his Mandarin is very romance focused. He's kind of blinded by the love that he had for his wife, and it kind of draws him into something more terrible. And I think that the difference is that, uh, Andrea and Tombs is very of his own mind, and he's very confident in what he does. And I love the conversations that him and Tom Holland have in the movie. 'cause I think that their interactions and the way they kind of talk to each other, like the fact that this whole movie's about him growing up, it's very fitting that Adrian Tombs kind of treats him as a son and as a kid, he's basically just like, I'm gonna do this and you can't stop me <laugh>. Like, he's very confident and I really like that. Speaker 4 01:08:39 It's more of that pers personal relationship with the villain again. Yeah. He's, you know, kind of like a, a quasi father figure, even though they, they didn't have that, that mentor relationship. It's interesting to me how much of the Homecoming movie, you know, stands on the shoulders and rests on the storytelling of the rest of the M C U. And that's very different than obviously, you know, the Ramey Spidermans and the Amazing Spidermans. Like this movie is nothing without, without Tony Stark, you know, from Yeah. From the Vultures Motivations, which was mentioned to Yeah. Speaker 1 01:09:10 <laugh>. I, I, I don't, maybe I'm in a nutcase. I really think you could do some version or edit of this movie where the, that mentor figure isn't Tony Stark Iron Man, who you've seen in like 11 movies. But I think you could just change him into just a Doc Brown figure or, or some kind of just general mentor figure. And I think the movie might, might kind of work, um, without, without the the backlog of Ironman stuff. I think far from home, my lord, I don't even know far from Home's, a Spider-Man movie <laugh> like homecoming compared to the other Spider-Man's, I feel it has a lot less heart, a lot less emotion, but more, um, more action, more entertainment maybe for, for me, I think Homecoming's comedy is, is funnier. It's closer to what I like. Yeah. And it's not just Peter being funny. Speaker 1 01:09:58 It's, the movie itself is really funny. The side characters are funny far from home. I do not think it has the same funniness. I don't think it has the same heart. And I don't even think it's even about Peter. I think far from Home is all about the ghost of Tony Stark. And when Twitter tells you Iron Boy Junior, I feel far from home, is the only reason why this Peter Parker's associated so closely that Iron Man like Homecoming Ironman's in it. But I feel like far from home kind of is like, they should just, I don't know. I feel like it's the Ghost of Ironman movie and I, I really felt it was unfair to the people who wanted just a Spider-Man movie. Well, what do you guys think? Speaker 3 01:10:32 Um, I'll, I'll elaborate a little bit and I have two, kind of two points. I agree. Like, I, I think it kind of sucks because I think Homecoming is about the exact opposite of that. I think Homecoming is a lot about Peter becoming what is not Ironman. And it's about him kind of growing out from under that shadow. And I think that far from home, like you said, it's a little unfair in the way that it kind of drags him by his ankles back into the shadow of Ironman. And I really, I'll agree that I kind of feel that movie bursting at the seams, that it's like kind of dying to escape from the life of Tony Stark. And I don't know, I think that maybe, I don't know what it is about it, maybe they leaned on the familiarity or whatever, but I think far from Home definitely gets carried away in the way, way that it portrays Peter because I mean, the whole movie is about, I mean, you're right mm-hmm. Speaker 3 01:11:17 The whole movie's about Tony Stark, the whole movie's about the Edith Glasses and about who's gonna be the next, who Peter thinks could be the next Tony Stark. And I, I definitely think that they did this movie a disservice. 'cause I think this movie definitely could have been more interesting had they leaned more on Tom and leaned more on Peter. There's, there's a definitely some good scenes. I love the scene where Happy and Peter are talking and Peter just kind of breaks down and he's crying and he doesn't, he feels like he's lost himself, but then they kind of just go right back into the normalcy of Peter Parker as Spider-Man. Like there's no, I don't, I don't feel like this movie takes its time. I feel like it's in a hurry. I, I don't know. I, I think this movie is definitely the worst of the two. I'll agree with that. Speaker 4 01:11:55 There's that scene with Aunt May, um, where he is in the Iron spider suit and, you know, the paparazzi are basically, you know, snapping photographs and, and questioning him. You know, are you the next Iron Man? Are you gonna replace him? And that, you know, basically explains the entire movie. You know, he's trying to get out of that shadow. But I think endgame, endgame kind of was the, almost the inverse of that because, so Tony Stark was haunted by Spider-Man two and Spider-Man's death, but it wasn't, you know, it didn't overshadow everything he's had. Speaker 3 01:12:28 Yeah, definitely. Speaker 1 01:12:29 I have a crazy crackpot theory when I was watching far from home, like when I'm watching movies, you know, I'm always theorizing in my head, what's gonna happen? What do I think when I was watching far from home? And like, you get scenes, like, um, they're, they're all asking him, are you gonna be the next Ironman? Who is gonna ask Spiderman if he's gonna be the next Ironman? Like, why wouldn't you ask? I don't know, literally any of the other Avengers who are still alive. Why would you ask little guy Spider-Man? So when, when this whole movie started so Ironman focused and about the pressure of Peter to be the next Ironman, and that scene from the reporters, it cuts to like Peter's just chilling on a rooftop. He looks, and there's a giant Ironman mural just looking at him. Then every country they go to, there's Ironman murals looking at him. Speaker 1 01:13:11 So I thought the whole movie, as I was watching, I thought the whole movie was, uh, a, a dream and it was a fantasy induced by Mysterio. Like, Mysterio was like probing Peter's psychology. And so I thought everything was like reflecting Peter, this pressure he put on himself to be the next Iron Man. And so I thought that's why it's not realistic. That's why it's a little bit ridiculous. That's why Ned and Betty are suddenly dating, because that's a dream. That weird shit happens in dreams. That's why, that's why May and happy they're dating too, because it's a dream weird stuff happens. So for me, that's what I thought. Oh man, I love this. This is crazy. You know, like I'm a DC fan, so I thought it was like Hugo Strange when he's messing with Batman's mind. And I thought that was that. And then Jake Gien Hall, there's some shots where, to me he looked like an older Tom Holland, just like with a beard. Speaker 1 01:14:01 And there's some shots, especially when he puts on the Edith Glasses, where he looked to me like a bit like Robert Downey Jr. So I thought, okay, Jake, Jill Hall, perfect casting, he is this avatar that Peter created. Mysterio is the perfect hero that Peter wants to be. Mysterio is this new figure who was created by Peter's mind to replace Ironman. So Peter doesn't have to replace Ironman. This new figment of his imagination will. So, so Mysterio is this perfect. He's Peter Parker plus Iron Man, and that is Jake Gien hall's casting. And that is, that explains his super, his his bulky suit with the LEDs. And I was like, okay, man, I'm down for this weird crazy twist. And then the movie does give you that twist and, and the bar, and it's a different twist. And it's, it's cool. But I, I honestly think the direction they went in where, no, this is reality and reality, just this funny stuff happens. I don't like that as much as my crazy fan fiction that I wrote in my head while watching the movie. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, Speaker 4 01:15:01 That sounds like that needs to be an article, you know, what should have happened fixing far from home? Yeah. Speaker 1 01:15:06 I don't even know if it, if it's fixing it because it, what I'm proposing is like so different. I mean, it might just be my vin's crazy far from home redo. I don't Speaker 3 01:15:16 Know. And I think that, I think that your idea is kind of the solution to the biggest problem that I have with this movie. I think that the biggest issue is that it kind of gets ahead of itself. I mean, by the time when you come into this movie, let's pretend that you're a person who's never heard of Mysterio, because every Spiderman fan knew Mysterio was gonna be a villain. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So let's pretend you go into this movie. No. Not knowing who Mysterio is. And they presented this huge conflict about, oh, you've had to take down these elementals and this is the movie. Like basically the movie's, like this is the movie. And by the time you get to the end where he's defeated the elementals, you're only like, you check your watch and you're only an hour into the movie and you go, oh crap, there's still more to this movie. And you kind of roll your eyes and you're exhausted already. And I think that's the biggest issue is that it's not, it's not structured. Right. And I think they did that because they wanted to do the Twist. They kind of worked backwards and they were like, oh, let's introduce Mysterio as a villain. And that'll be interesting. And maybe some people will get caught off guard by that and then the rest of the movie and Speaker 1 01:16:13 Introduced them as a hero, Speaker 3 01:16:14 Or Yeah, introduce as a hero. And then I think the rest of the movie kind of pays the price for that decision because then you have to rush the story forward from the beginning and you have to, oh, here's Nick Fury and now he has a new suit and now they're gonna do this plan. And then the back half of the movie is like, it feels super slow in comparison. And you're just kind of like, okay, when are we getting to the big part where he finds out who he is and then he finds out who he is. And then he has to go from all the way from where is he like the Netherlands or somewhere he has to go all the way back to England. Like, it gets kind of exhausting and it's kind of tiring and it feels really long-winded, even though this movie's not all that long. Like Yeah, it gets tired. Yeah. And the stereo Speaker 1 01:16:53 Happens, the twist happens right at the middle point. It's like, I think the movie's like exactly two hours. And I think that happens right at the hour point. Speaker 4 01:16:59 Oh wow. Yeah. One thing we didn't talk about though, in far from home is, um, some of the things that it got really right with like, the humor. 'cause there are so many funny mo moments in far from home. Um, night Monkey is like amazing and really funny. Yeah, yeah. Um, you know, I I, I laughed out loud a lot at that. So that was, that was super entertaining. Um, I, Speaker 3 01:17:19 Yeah, Speaker 4 01:17:20 Yeah. <laugh>, Speaker 3 01:17:21 I definitely agree this movie because a lot of people when, uh, homecoming came out, a lot of people compared that to a John Hughes 80 high school movies, 16 candles, breakfast Club, whatever. And I definitely think that's true. I think Watts kind of puts that identity into both of these movies. But I think specifically far from home feels a lot more like that. It's, I feel like even, even if the humor doesn't work for me, I definitely feel like it's more humor based. The stuff with the kid who they say he was just a little boy whenever we snapped and now we come back and he's our age and now <laugh> he, he jumps into the room when Peter has his pants down, he thinks he's hooking up with some exotic European woman. Like there is a lot of, I feel like this movie is a lot more humor oriented and I kind of appreciate that. 'cause it makes it feel more lighthearted and fun. But ultimately I think the structure is so hard to kind of, it's a, it's a hard to swallow pill and it gets tired. Speaker 4 01:18:11 It's a, it's a mash of a road trip movie and an M C U movie. Yeah. And it definitely, you know, it struggles. Yeah. Speaker 1 01:18:18 Speaking of Brad, that guy <laugh>, um, I, I, I thought that the Edith scene on the bus, I thought that was so like big and so wild where like Peter sends drones to destroy the whole bus. So that's part of the reason why I thought it was just a wild dream nightmare. Like, I, I, yeah. I still can't believe some of these scenes in this movie are like, no, that this is canid, this is real, this happened. I don't know. It doesn't work for me. Um, but the end of far from Home, big Reveal. J j J is back and also everyone knows Peter Spider-Man. Tucker, what are your thoughts and theories for No Way Home and what it means for the rest of Spidey in the M C U? Speaker 3 01:18:52 Oh boy. Okay. Um, let me just say this. The Night <laugh>, the night that tickets went on sale, I sat up in my room for a very long time. I was not quite as dedicated as Alex, Alex said he stayed up until like 5:30 AM to get tickets. I kind of checked out at two o'clock. But let me just say I was very excited. And as soon as I secured them, finally I was just kind of, I mean, I just kind of sat back in my bed and I was kind of freaking out because this is the movie that kind of feels like my whole life is led up to, I told you guys the earliest memory in my whole life is receiving the D v D of Spider-Man two. And these movies have been so impactful for me and very important for me that it's kind of weird to, uh, it's kind of weird to think I never got the chance to see any of these guys in theaters. Speaker 3 01:19:40 So it's kinda weird to think that I'm gonna get to go see Toby. And what's funny is like, none of this is confirmed, but everyone on the internet knows the truth. <laugh> like, uh, Sony can try as hard as I want to stop it. But like, I mean, it's just, it's surreal and it really is surreal. I was sitting on my couch the other night watching, uh, maybe football or something with my stepdad and my mom and a trailer for it came on. And I just kind of looked at them. I was like, I feel like I'm gonna cry. Like, for real. I'm seriously getting sentimental about this movie. Like, it's weird. And I even different than Endgame. 'cause endgame I feel is comparable to this. Like, it feels like the buildup of a lot of stuff. And this, it's gonna be weird. And I'm, I'm nervous genuinely because like I said, I didn't love, I didn't love far from Home and I didn't love Homecoming. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I don't want this to be a movie. I come up the other side of indifferent too. I want to be really excited for Spider-Man. And I wanna be excited that I see a lot of cool stuff happen. You Speaker 4 01:20:34 Know, it feels like another moment, you know, like the first Spider-Man, spider-Man movie. There's, the whole world is watching and kind of waiting for this to come out. You've seen the ticket sales, you've seen how many people watch the trailer. You know, we've all experienced everything on Twitter and, and with, with the Cosmic Circus about, you know, people looking for information about the movie. Yeah. And it's just, there's so much hype and so much anticipation for it. And it, you know, it leads me to wonder, well, what next? And I hope that after the movie is out, I hope we get some news about what's, you know, what's coming next in the, the world of Spider-Man pretty quickly. Yeah. Um, just to, you know, not to be disappointed not to feel like it's, it's over for a while. 'cause I think, you know, I think back to far from home and I think back to when there were the contract negotiations between Sony and Marvel, and just how disappointing and sad that was to think of that. That could have been the end of Yeah. Spider-Man and the M C U. That was just, I hope we don't have another situation like that. <laugh>. Speaker 3 01:21:31 Yeah. I, I too, Speaker 1 01:21:32 What's crazy is that probably at the same time, because all that contract stuff happened, actually right before far from home came out, and then during its whole release, that must've been the same time that they were planning the whole multiverse thing. I mean, I think I complete crazy theories. So I, I wonder maybe Sony would've tried to make Spider-Man three, they would've tried to do the whole multiverse thing themselves just without Dr. Strange. 'cause they, they own, they own the characters, they own the movies. Why not? Yeah. I dunno. Speaker 3 01:21:59 Well, I have this, I have this theory. I'm gonna put this out there. I'm sure that this, I'm sure this is grounded in nothing <laugh>, but I'm gonna say it anyways. And I'll be embarrassed later. Back in 2019, whenever all of that was going on, I was, I was kind of sitting back and watching, I'm sure I tweeted a couple times or whatever talking about it, but I was just kind of sitting back and watching. Because what was happening essentially is two studios were fighting over this superhero that's very important to the rest of us. And we were all just kind of wait. It was like he was on trial and we're all waiting to see what's happening. Is he gonna go here? Is he gonna go there? And I think that at that time, and I think just, what was it like yesterday or the day before, they, somebody, Tom Holland said that before it was gonna be multiverse, they were thinking about doing a Craven movie. Speaker 3 01:22:43 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Which isn't all that surprising, but I think that while before any of the contract negotiations happened, I think that Marvel Studios and Kevin Feige were planning on a Craven movie. And then I think that what happened was that whenever Sony and Marvel got to the negotiations, I think that Sony probably had the upper hand and that they had some leverage. And they were like, actually I think we want to make the biggest, biggest movie of all time. And I think we want to bring back two of the most iconic actors to portray their roles again. And I think that that's kind of how it unfolded. Because I mean, even back then in 2019 before everything coming out of far from home, I still remember people talking about, oh, maybe we'll see, uh, daredevils show up. Like he needs a lawyer. Or Oh, maybe we'll see Craven show up. Like these were ideas that people were having back then. And so it doesn't surprise me at all to hear that that's where they were going. And so while this multiverse stuff kind of feels like it came outta left field, like it's still exciting and I don't really care how we got here, but I do think that it's fun to speculate on what might have happened. Speaker 1 01:23:40 You know, I, I think it is a bit thin. You're just looking at this as just try trying to be objective as just an audience goer. I think it's a bit thin that they go, okay, everyone knows his, his identity is Spider-Man. Therefore Doctor Strange tries to undo that. Therefore the multiverse opens and all your favorite villains come back. Yeah. Like it, you know, all the cynics can look at that and it, it doesn't take a lot to say, oh, money I see <laugh>. Speaker 3 01:24:05 Yeah, exactly. Speaker 1 01:24:06 But it, well, it's very, very exciting. I'm really excited to see Goblin really excited for that. Yeah. I'm nervous about Doc Onk and his C g I tentacles 'cause the puppets were so good. Yeah. Electro I think it'll be cool. I kind of hope that he's just another electro uh, maybe loosely related to Chasm two, but mostly just another universe. A lizard is a C g I lizard. Is it even the same actor who knows Sandman is a, a sandstorm with a face. I think those two guys have been a bit, it's, it's strange. Like why not? I don't know why they're not getting the same love that the other three are getting. I was, I hope, I love the movie. Speaker 3 01:24:43 I was gonna say this earlier when we were talking about amazing Spider-Man One I would really love if While No Way Home was happening, they just cut away and Lizard was still trying to make everyone in New York a lizard person for no reason. Speaker 3 01:24:55 Um, but I agree. I'm really excited for this movie. I'm excited to see Electro 'cause I wanna see how they handle his characteristics. That movie was so poorly received. I remember when they announced him coming back, everyone was kind of like, really? Of all the people you could bring back, you pick the one that no one likes <laugh>. Like, so it'll be interesting to see how they kind of reinvent him. And he's been at the forefront with Alfred Molina and Wilm Defoe promoting this movie. So I am, I'm curious to see how they handle his character. Speaker 1 01:25:19 Something really interesting about Elektra, when I was watching far from Home, I felt I had the, the smallest idea when he, he goes into OSS Corp with Harry and he's like zapping the executive guys. I got a small bit of like Doc Manhattan vibes and, and that moment I could see the kernel of their idea for electrode. Like, oh, we'll make 'em blue and we'll get from like these awesome, like, floating zappy powers and it'll be like Dr. Manhattan versus Spider-Man. Okay. If you're reinventing, why not? That's kind of cool. But it was so mangled and sad and I'm a little disappointed. No way. Home is like going in this radically different direction. But I I, I'm, I trust them. I'm, I'm excited to see whatever they do. Ila. Speaker 4 01:25:54 Yeah. So I have a crazy thing that I've been wondering about with the new Spider-Man movie. So there are, there are identical, well not identical, but there are versions of Peter Parker in each universe we have, we have Jay Jonah Jameson in this universe. So he, he's a character that exists here. He exists in the Toby world. What, like, what's going on with the doc a the electro like tho those characters that presumably have co counterparts that are out there in the world not being villains, you know, in the Holland M c u non multiverse version. What, what have they been up to? Um, Speaker 1 01:26:25 My theory is that they're just normal guys and they're, their crazy experiments never happened to them. Hmm. Speaker 3 01:26:29 They Well, if you're Sorry, go ahead. No, Speaker 4 01:26:31 No, no, go Speaker 3 01:26:32 Ahead. Um, my thought, and this is completely based on nothing, like I said, like all my theories are just kind of outta nowhere <laugh>. Um, it kind of looks like Doc Hawk is kind of gonna have a come to Jesus moment, if you want to call it that, where he kind of realizes where he is. He kind of realizes what's going on. You see the scene where he's like, well, you're not Peter Parker. And they kind of mm-hmm. <affirmative> do that. And then they show him kind of locked up and just talking to the kids. Like it looks like he's kind of gonna become a mentor. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And which I think is good because I mean, he was, he was done justice, he was saved at the end of Spider-Man two. I think it would be kind of weird to backtrack on that. So what I hope is gonna happen is that in the fallout of this movie, Peter maybe goes and tries to find the Auto Octavius of his own world and maybe becomes a Speaker 1 01:27:15 Student of his Speaker 3 01:27:16 Or stuff like that. Like I would love to see them incorporate this idea of multiverse into like the future. Like it doesn't just have to be one movie. You can feel the impact of that later on. I would really love to see, especially 'cause it was done so well in a, uh, spider-Man PS four, their relationship that Peter as a student or like a mentee of Otto. It would be interesting to see them take that on in a more permanent aspect instead of just the small conversation that they had in Spider-Man two. That's Speaker 1 01:27:40 Awesome. That's really, really awesome. Alright guys, do you guys have any more thoughts about No Way Home or the Seven Spider-Man movies, <laugh> that come before it? <laugh>? I do. Any, any lingering thoughts? So Speaker 4 01:27:50 I have a lingering thought about the amazing Spider-Man to an electro. So I don't know if either of you guys saw Dark Wing Duck as a kid, or maybe it was before your Times. Yes, yes. But there's a villain in there, mega Volts that I can't, you know, he, he's an electric villain and I can't quite separate Electro from Mega Volt and Dark Wing Duck <laugh>. Speaker 1 01:28:11 What the hell is this Speaker 4 01:28:13 <laugh>? Yeah. I mean, you gotta watch the cartoon 'cause it's really, it's fun. It'll stick in your head for, for years and years as evidenced by me. Yeah. But he, he's like an electrified villain that's very similar to Electro. Yeah. And I, I just wanted to mention that. 'cause that's funny. Speaker 1 01:28:26 I I can't stop laughing. Speaker 3 01:28:29 <laugh>. Well, let me just say this. Anyone listening to this, if you have any information on, uh, freshman year, the Disney Plus Show, please text me. Um, this show is so confusing. I have no idea where they're going with this and I really just wanna know what they're doing. That show is so interesting, like, the moment they announced it, I was really confused. The vibe that I got from his Civil War appearance and further on was that he was always kind of in the beginning of his career. So the idea that they can do an entire show about his career before his career. Speaker 1 01:28:55 Yeah. You know, in Civil War they say, uh, it had been six months. So freshman year would be the six months before Civil, civil War. Six months in between. And I suppose the six months after Civil War leading into homecoming. It's Speaker 3 01:29:06 Interesting. I'm, yeah. Speaker 1 01:29:07 No, no, no. 'cause there's only two months. There's two months between Civil War and Homecoming. So that, so that's eight months from when he Spider-Man to Homecoming Wacky. Speaker 3 01:29:15 Interesting. He Speaker 4 01:29:15 Kind of, you know, just briefly mentions too that he was bitten by the spider in Civil War. It's like, it's kind of brushed off, right. Bitten by the spider or whatever. And then six months ago. So that, I wonder if it'll explore again the origin a little bit more in an episode. Speaker 3 01:29:29 Well, yeah. And the biggest question that I always think of whenever I try to dec decide, decipher what this show will be, is who the villain's gonna be. Because by all means, we've kind of seen everyone that he's faced at one Point Ear earlier, even before we started this podcast, I thought maybe they would try to tie in Matt Gargan from Homecoming. 'cause I was like, oh, maybe they had met before, but nope. Sure enough, he had no idea who Matt Gargan was before Homecoming. So maybe they'll do jackal. I think Jackal would be a fun Speaker 1 01:29:55 Idea. Who is Matt Gargan? What is this, Speaker 3 01:29:56 Um, the Scorpion from? Um, maybe Speaker 1 01:29:58 Do you guys think Scorpion's coming back for No Way Home? Will they ever follow up with that? Speaker 3 01:30:02 I hope so. Speaker 4 01:30:02 It's a lot of villains. Speaker 3 01:30:04 Not in home, not in No Way Home. But I hope that in, in his, uh, college trilogy, I hope they bring him back. 'cause I think that he's a, I mean, I don't remember his name off the top of my head, but he's a really underrated actor. He's done a lot of good stuff. So I would love to see them bring him back in a bigger role. Michael Speaker 1 01:30:18 Mando, is that Speaker 3 01:30:18 It? Yes. Michael Mando. Yes. Speaker 1 01:30:20 Okay. Okay. Alright. Are we done with the Spider Boys? I think so. Speaker 4 01:30:23 I think so. Speaker 1 01:30:24 Alright. Fantastic guys. Thank you all for coming. Thank you everyone for listening. I think this was, I had a lot of fun with this. Um, let's go one more time around our Cosmic Circle round table. Please just let the listeners know your name, anything you've been working on lately, and where people can find you on social media. Speaker 4 01:30:40 Hi, I am, I'm Aila. So happy to be here and talk to you guys. I, I'm on Twitter at Tulin Wrights and my next article is gonna be about Shadow and Bones. Season two. Subscribe to the Patreon for the Cosmic Circus, if you can. It helps keep the sit running. Speaker 3 01:30:54 Uh, hi Tucker, you've been listening to me for the last two hours. Um, just pay attention to the website. I don't really have a social media presence. Definitely subscribe to the Patreon, support the website. We have a lot of fun over on Discord. Um, I love chatting with the guys over there. Yeah, this was a lot of fun. Speaker 1 01:31:07 I'm vin you can find me on Twitter at vin writes words. Recently, I haven't been working on any articles, but I, I think I've, I I I I owe everyone a couple Spider-Man articles after this. Oh yeah, definitely. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I always like wasting time with really crazy Photoshops. It's what I like to do <laugh>, uh, when I, when I don't want to study. Yeah. Um, so, so that's me. Alex was here. He had to leave earlier. But we really, really love Alex. Alex is one of the best guys on our site, and hope you guys appreciated them too. So thanks again for everyone tuning in. Please don't forget to find us on Patreon. You can find all of our work and the work of our friends on the cosmic circus.com, as well as on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram at my cosmic circus. Please remember to rate and review the podcast, like and subscribe. We'll see you after Christmas for our Hawkeye wrap up with Uday. Love you guys. Thank you so much. See you next time. Speaker 2 01:32:16 Uh, what we can do is like, I can just give you my thoughts on it really quick. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and like we can, Lizzie, if you're listening to this, add it in as if I'm in the conversation. <laugh>, hold on. I'm gonna start this really quick. So it's make so, it makes it sound like I I'm in the actual conversation. So I agree with Alo <laugh>, I'm sorry. Oh my God. I'm gonna, okay, I'm gonna say this and this is going, I want this to be quoted. Hold on, on my team. Alex, Alex, Speaker 1 01:32:47 Hold on. Hold on, hold on. I can play it now. Do you want me to play it? Speaker 2 01:32:50 Yes. Play it, please. Oh my gosh. Speaker 1 01:32:52 Oh boy. Hold one second. Just Speaker 2 01:32:56 Do me a favor and play it right about now. Speaker 1 01:33:01 Oh, no, no, not that, not that. What is it? This one? I think it's, Speaker 2 01:33:06 Yeah, it's that one. Speaker 1 01:33:07 This one. Okay. All right. Lizzie, please clean this up. Sorry. Love you <laugh>. How was this? No, it's not this either. What is it? Speaker 2 01:33:17 Just, just put, just put Spider-Man three that Peter walk down the road. <laugh>. We know what it is. No, but Liz's Speaker 1 01:33:25 Gonna kill us. Speaker 4 01:33:27 Yay. Yay. Good job guys. Speaker 1 01:33:30 It's a lot of fun.