[00:00:24] Speaker A: I'm isla Ruby. I'm definitely not laughing. And we have a very special episode today. We're going to be chatting all things echo from Marvel. We have a very full house on the pod. I'm joined by Brian, John, and Alex. And originally, when we recorded this, I made fanfare music. It was requested that I not. So just imagine me doing amazing fanfare music for Alex.
[00:00:46] Speaker B: Take two is going well. Take two is going well. Hi, everybody. It's Brian. And I'm not going to say names this.
[00:00:57] Speaker C: Jaw, it's John. And I'm definitely laughing.
I'm definitely laughing.
[00:01:07] Speaker D: I can't do it under those conditions. I'm just laughing. Hi. My name is Alex Barris from the cosplay spirit, and I'm happy to be here.
[00:01:16] Speaker B: We are so excited to have you, Alex.
[00:01:18] Speaker A: We really are.
[00:01:21] Speaker B: So, Echo.
[00:01:23] Speaker A: Echo. Okay, let's get right into it. So Echo dropped all at once on Disney. Plus, it's the first show under Marvel's new spotlight banner, and we're just going to go and give our kind of top level general impressions. Brian, I'll start with you since you're first in the little Zoom circle.
[00:01:40] Speaker B: So, of course, I'm just going to give a spoiler alert because we are going to be talking about spoilers of Echo. So you haven't seen it turn back now because you don't want to be spoiled of all the excitement that this series has.
[00:01:53] Speaker A: Let's. Let's go even further. Let's give spoilers for Hawkeye and you. If you've never watched Marvel, don't listen to this show. Go subscribe to Disney plus. Spend a couple days.
[00:02:05] Speaker B: But if you watch the Defender series and you haven't watched anything else, this is an episode for you, so you don't need the spoiler warning.
Unless that was a spoiler, then. Spoiler warning anyways. So, echo, what can I say about this? I think that there's been quite the build up for the series, and that build up has been. We've been listening for a year and a half, all these people on the Internet saying how bad it was, how plagued it was with problems, how horrible it was. And while there was some issues, specifically pacing issues, and I feel like you could feel that there was definitely an episode that was cut out, I thought that this was actually one of the stronger shows, especially for more recent. I love a lot of Marvel. I'm a huge Marvel fail. I saw the Marvel six times in theaters, and I think I'm probably the only person in the world that did that. And carried that film on my back.
But I loved Echo and I thought that this was really strong and it was more exciting for me because it brought back this defenders verse, which is one of my favorites. And I had been rooting for some retcon MCU timeline access. I wrote an article when I went to New York the first time a year ago about was this going to bring them back? Were they coming back to Disney plus, where were they going to fall? Were they going to be on that timeline? So I was very excited about this. I love the culture that we got to play with. We didn't get to see a lot of this in a lot of other shows, and Echo does that well, and it also explores things like disabilities with her being deaf and being amputee. And there were so many great things that the series had going for it, and I loved every episode. I hope that we get more of Echo very soon. Echo season two, season three. I know it's not happening, but I'm going to get on that train really quick and I'm going to stop talking because I've just been monologuing for a while.
[00:03:51] Speaker A: John, how about you or Alex?
[00:03:54] Speaker D: John, if you'd like to start, please, by all means.
[00:03:58] Speaker C: Alex, are you first?
[00:04:01] Speaker D: All right, well, I'm going to continue off a line.
Brian was talking about how a lot of people were riffing off like, echo is going to be bad and whatnot. And we have to give credit to our editor in chief, Lizzie Hill, for probably being one of the few, if not the only person who was saying Echo was going to be amazing.
She called it.
I think part of that helped with how the show was well received because it had such low expectations going in that a lot of people were genuinely surprised by how good it was. And that's what I think made apart from the fact that the show, I knew from the beginning it was going to be great. And yes, there are pacing issues, and there's a lot of you could feel that there was probably an episode cut out.
Probably people's low expectations with this show helps Echo have a more positive review amongst fans, and that's my take on it. There's probably also a lot of different factors, like the releasing it all at once and the mature rating certainly didn't.
Certainly helped a bit. And also the fact that the Defenders universe is partially canonized. It's complicated, and I'll probably get into it during the podcast, but yeah, it's good. And personally, it's one of my favorite shows so far.
I would probably put it it's not in my top three, but probably like, in my top five Disney plus shows from the MCU so far. So, yeah, I would count it right.
[00:06:00] Speaker B: Up there real quick. Lizzie has been a pillar of just like, I think this is going to be good. Let's wait and see. And I am so glad that we have someone out there that's just guys like, sure, we've all heard the rumors, but let's just kind of wait and see how it plays out. And also, this is the first time in a while that I think that I've saw back to back shows with what if and then with Echo, where people did not jump back between the MCU is over and the MCU is back. I feel like it was two the MCU's are back. So I was like, I'm going to take this as a win.
[00:06:34] Speaker D: Yes, agreed.
[00:06:36] Speaker C: I liked it better than a lot of the reason output. There's been a lot of mixed bags coming out of Disney. Plus, the one thing I really want to highlight is that we got a tv show that's 85% like ASL, and his long, extended conversations with people just talking in sign language, I think that's remarkable. I think it's a much better show than they've delivered in a while. I do think I got a few issues with kingpin. I think he's a little softer than he's been portrayed in the past. And I think every time they had a.
Every time they had the ability to do something like, something with big stakes, they kind of pull back. And that's kind of my only nitpick with the show.
Other than that, I think it's got great characters. I love the daredevil cameo. It made me feel like I was watching the Netflix series. It's a major improvement. I don't get complaints.
I liked it.
[00:08:08] Speaker B: I just want to say something that you brought up, which is very interesting, is you mentioned that a majority of the show was told in ASL. And I have to say I think that overall, that made it even more engaging because I don't know about other people's families, but in my family, like my nephew, even I, my mom, we tend to have our phones in our hands and we're watching maybe very passively, but when you have to engage with a show that is relying on subtitles or on ASL or something like that, you have to be engaged with it a little bit different. And I noticed that our phones were down a lot more and we were watching it and we were taking it in a lot more so I feel like that was also a really cool thing, too, because it brought us together a little bit more while having to engage with it in a different way.
[00:08:52] Speaker A: It forced you to kind of abandon the second screen, which has been, like you just said, so common with things.
I think I agree with you guys in that it was a kind of delightful show and the Internet lied. No surprise there had been so much chatter about echo. I feel like, excuse me, whenever the show was mentioned, there was all like, but it's going to be terrible. And I think just from a production perspective, you could definitely see where footage was used, where shortcuts were done, where things were kind of made so that they were trying to fix whatever issues they had. But overall, I was just really impressed.
[00:09:35] Speaker B: With the show going off of that you said about how they use different things. It was interesting that episode one used a lot of footage from Hawkeye, but it felt very original, and I didn't feel like I was just rewatching something that I'd already seen.
So I did think that it was done pretty well. That's just my one little take on. You know, it sounds like we're all very impressed with the series for many different reasons, but did you feel like it met your expectations, or was there anything that maybe was kind of left that you wanted more of? John, let's start with you.
[00:10:09] Speaker C: I'm a little bit of a mixed bag.
It exceeded my expectations in some ways.
I don't think it was as high octane like in the action that the trailer a. I thought I was about to go into a marvel version of John Wick based on the previews that came out. And while I got a little bit of that, I also got more character development I did not expect. You dealt with the family, family dynamics. You dealt with the tribal dynamics. So it was a good replacement for the high hawks ain't action, but it was a little bit of a mixed bag, my expectations, but it's not a bad thing at all.
[00:11:08] Speaker B: Sure. Alex, what about you? What did you feel about your expectations going into the show, and how did you feel like they were met and.
[00:11:15] Speaker D: Was there something that wasn't met for you expectation wise?
I kind of knew what I was going into from the get go. What I was surprised about was the decision to make it mature rating, because I don't know if I was desensitized or I really don't understand what the point of the mature rating was because I didn't really see aside from the first episode and maybe a little bit of the fourth one where you had, like, oh, you're showing blood. There wasn't really much that warranted a TVMA rating, in my opinion.
To me, it felt like Moon Knight. It felt like Moon Knight if it had taken that extra step of like, okay, we're going to show and not hide it, and if I could jump.
[00:12:16] Speaker A: In there, I thought there was a lot more guns in this one than in Moon Knight, and I think that was why it probably received the mature rating.
[00:12:24] Speaker D: Probably that too. Yeah. Like, the explosion in the second episode. I think it was, yeah.
[00:12:30] Speaker A: And a lot of very explicit gun violence. And I think that probably had a lot to do with it.
[00:12:35] Speaker D: Yeah. There was also, like, the. I don't remember if it was the third or the fourth episode, the fight.
I don't know what you call, like.
[00:12:45] Speaker A: The roller derby, the skating rink. I was going to say bowling alley, because the bowling alley. Not the bowling alley, but the skating rink.
[00:12:51] Speaker B: The roller derby.
[00:12:52] Speaker D: Yeah, the roller derby. I could feel the TVMA part there. I could also feel, like in the daredevil fighting sequence, but it was very much along the lines of Marvel type fighting and choreography, and there were intense moments, 100%. But it wasn't like what many people would feel accustomed to, what would be a TVMA rating. So it's like Marvel put its toe into the water, and that's pretty much what it did. But I'm sure that as we go on, it's going to develop more TVMA projects in the future, because that is what I've been hearing. That sort of echo was kind of like the pilot project to get it into the TVMA rating, and they didn't want to push it too far, but it got the reaction it wanted. It got really positive results. It's number one on Hulu and Disney plus, and we can definitely 100% expect to see more TVMA projects in the future. Daredevil born again, 100% is going to be one of them, and others down the road, which we can't mention yet and mostly have nothing to do with Echo. But, yeah, it's thanks to echo that we're going to get a lot of more Marvel mature projects.
[00:14:22] Speaker B: Was wondering, I was watching it as well, and definitely, I thought, with the guns, and there was the one scene where Maya takes the needle and has the soap rune. And I was like, okay, so there was a few things, but I also agreed that it was kind of light compared to some of the other things. But part of me was wondering, was it maybe a ploy from Marvel, like a push to get the ma because they thought it was going to bring back people of the defenders verse who they wanted that population very quickly. And so I think that push for all the commercials that had know mature audience, I think that it felt like it was very intentional. Like, we want people to know, this is what we're doing and this is how we're going to do it.
[00:15:04] Speaker A: It was their entire marketing plan. It was like, viewer discretion advised. You had voiceover, every advertisement was, this is going to be brutal. This is going to be intense. Come if you like that stuff.
[00:15:19] Speaker D: And it was going to be like, I obviously can't disclose much information about that sort of project, but the approach before, it was going to be like, oh, we're going to do a TVMA. The approach was always pg 13 or the tv equivalent of the pg 13 rating on tv. So it was going to always be that route. It was just going to be following that same route that Marvel projects usually do. But then they decided, all right, now we're going to switch it up, because what else do they have to lose? Right? And that part helped in a way, because look at the extremely positive results that they're getting.
Yeah, I would say that it was a marketing ploy, but at the same time, it helped them, and it helped.
[00:16:11] Speaker B: Really well for my expectations of the show.
I guess I didn't really have expectations going this one. I think that's a weird thing to say, because with a lot of Marvel things, I expect high quality. But I think I was going into it just thinking like, okay, let's just prepare ourselves in case this is as bad as people are saying. I hope it's not, but let's prepare. And I think in that respect, I was actually kind of blown away because I liked that this story was more intimate, that it explored deeper. One character, which I think is what was really interesting about the Marvel Netflix shows is that it was like, deep dives into each one of these characters and their psyches and their families and their lives and their fighting styles and all these different things that make up this one character, instead of trying to do something that, like secret invasions, which, while I liked that, a lot of people didn't, because it was such a big story and it should have been something that was on the screen and not necessarily on a television show, I think you can get away with something more intimate like this, too, because you don't need as much VFX with intimate stories like this. It was more person driven and family driven. And the way that echo also did it, too, is that all of the family was really engaging, and I think that was a plus. I I can't think of the cousin's, um, not bonnie, but the guy.
[00:17:30] Speaker A: Not Billy Jack, because he was the puppy.
[00:17:34] Speaker B: Billy Jack's owner.
[00:17:36] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:17:37] Speaker B: He was awesome. He was hilarious. And every one of the family was very engaging. And my sister was texting me and being like, I love grandpa. He's the greatest character in the show. And there was just all of this very. I have not seen this much excitement from so many people in my life about it.
It blew me away.
[00:17:54] Speaker A: What I was really excited about and what I was really nervous about actually going into it is whether or not this would actually be Maya's story or whether or not it would be Fisk's story and Daredevil's story, and she would just kind of be crammed in there. And I was very pleased know Daredevil was only in there for, what, a couple minutes, and Fisk was in there within the context of his relationship to, you know, through all of echo. This was very much her story, her journey, her finding herself and her finding and kind of accepting who she was and her power. So I was just really pleased with that, and that totally kind of blew me away with expectations. Did you guys, overall, going down to a little bit more specifics, were there any top moments for you, let's say, top two or three moments for you in the series that you want to talk about?
[00:18:48] Speaker B: Well, I think I have to start off by saying the daredevil scene was a top because it was really cool, again to see her in another corner of this universe with these characters.
Everybody loves daredevil, but specifically this.
Charlie Cox is one of the best castings, at least in my opinion, of the Marvel projects.
So I really liked that scene. The fighting was really well, but I think more so than that one is, I loved when, in the final battle, when she kind of assumes Echo and you get to see all of her ancestors stand behind her, and then you kind of see them through her. They're fighting. And I thought that was just, like, a really cool callback to her name and her powers, and I thought that that was an excellent bit. And the roller, drippy fight, I mean, that was just top notch. I guess it was all action based. The action was just really good in the series.
[00:19:49] Speaker C: Can we take a moment to talk about the sound design? Because I think the sound design in this show is incredible how, like, it'll take a moment to weave in and out of her perspective. The audio will cut off. They're fighting and going.
I was so amazed with that. That just cut in, cut out and just. Yeah, I love the sound design in the show. I think that's my favorite part of Becko, is that they did that.
[00:20:29] Speaker B: There's a part of the.
I think it was the final fight where it's like the camera spinning behind her in a circle and there's sound, and then it hits her and there's not. And then it goes back to having sound, and it was so seamless.
[00:20:41] Speaker A: It's very striking.
[00:20:43] Speaker C: Yeah, it does that in the first fight. It does. Then the roller skate ring.
It's so cool.
That was my favorite part.
[00:20:54] Speaker A: It's quite a different perspective for her action and her fighting than we saw in Hawkeye.
We didn't really get to see it from her view and understandable because it wasn't her story, but this really made full use of that.
[00:21:09] Speaker D: I think my favorite part for me probably was what makes echo, I think, unique, apart from her fighting ability and what she does and her grittiness, because she's definitely within that moral gray area of the marvel, as Marvel heroes go. She's kind of, like, in that morally gray area. So she's, like, slightly antiheroish. But there's also the uniqueness that comes with her being deaf and her using ASL to communicate, as well as her native american history and background, which was thoroughly displaced. I can only imagine what that feels like for that community because I also kind of experienced that, for example, in my case, when we saw blue Beetle and there's that sort of representation.
Usually when you go to cinemas or you see this sort of entertainment, you usually go and there's, like, white actors and you see all of these stories, and it seems almost fantastical in a way. And then when you see yourself represented with people of your own skin, same heritage and all that stuff, and you see places that you recognize, like Wakanda Forever was also another one where I know that my aunt, it was weird because in parts of it, it takes you out of it sometimes because you're like, oh, I've been here. And it doesn't feel that much of a fantasy. It feels like it could be real. And it's a possibility for people of any sort of race and background to be the best that they can be and also be heroes and be shown in stories like this. So I think that was probably what most impressed me about echo is that just basically the representation overall probably is what impressed me the most about this.
[00:23:17] Speaker B: Know, I think that going back to what John said, and what you're kind of saying, too, is with this representation and their ability to show kind of how she's not hearing what everybody else is hearing, and so it's more representative of her. It does kind of make me excited for daredevil for the fact that I hope that we get to see more of like, kind of like, you know, how in the original daredevil you kind of got to see his world through his eyes when it's raining? I think it'd be cool for them to explore a little bit more of that because you can do it and it could be cool. And it's going to give people who are of these communities, it's exciting for them to see more representation of themselves on the screen.
[00:23:59] Speaker A: And that's really been a strength of marvelous in these know, as of late. And Alex, you mentioned that they've really kind of widened everything that they have to offer, and I think that's such a wonderful thing.
And again, it must be so meaningful for folks in those communities.
I know Echo in particular, I think it had its initial premiere at a Choctaw event in Oklahoma, and that was like the first display to the entire world, and I thought that was just really also respectful.
We've talked a little bit about our favorite moments. Was there anything that didn't work in the show? I know a couple of us have hit on pacing, maybe as something that wasn't quite great.
[00:24:46] Speaker B: Yeah, there was definitely some pacing issues, and there's definitely some editing issues. I don't want to say issues with editing, but I think it was just cut together rather differently because it feels like there was a little bit of, like a piecemeal to get this together, which I know that is, some of the comments that people were making about it is that Marvel was kind of trying to frankenstein something together. And while for most of the parts, it worked rather well, it did feel like there was a little bit of some shots that were just cut together or like transitions or storylines that were cut just for time or for whatever reason they no longer fit.
And so that was a little bit disappointing for me.
I would have liked to see a little bit better pacing a little. I would like to see that 6th episode. I want to know what's in that 6th episode and why they felt they had to cut an entire episode out. It seems incredible. That seems like so much to cut out.
[00:25:46] Speaker D: Basically summarized spoilers, summarized version of it.
There's a lot of things that were cut, from my understanding, in terms of other possible antagonists that were going to show up in the show and all that. But the main gist of it would have been like a Bonnie focused episode, which, in my opinion, I feel should have been necessary because Deborah Jacobs has just been winning these past few weeks. That's like she's been winning as Kahori in what if, and she's been winning as Bonnie here in Echo, too, and I just need more debris. Jacobs, I believe, is her name in my life, and she's been amazing. And I feel like the episode focused more on Bonnie, and it was going to be a tone shift from what it was going to be. It would have shifted the story away from what was going on, which was echo, and focusing on that, it would have damaged the whole point of the show is just to present Echo. And I feel like the Bonnie episode would have just been a filler. It would have probably been a little bit more for people. It would have been an episode that would have felt like a filler episode and wouldn't have really added anything, and people would have classified it as weak. My personal opinion, I would have loved to have seen it because I need more debris Jacobs. And I would have loved to know Bonnie side of the story and everything.
But, yeah, that's sort of like the gist of.
[00:27:34] Speaker A: That for me. Bonie's relationship with Echo was what was missing from this. You know, it was kind of alluded to at the, you know, their. Their relationship as kids. And then we would see these moments where she's at the fire station and kind of being watched, and there are these tiny breadcrumbs. And I felt like that whole thing was promised to us as an audience and it wasn't paid off.
Now, I don't think that it was necessary that maybe we get a whole episode about it, although I, again, personally would have loved to see it, too. But I think you could feel that it was missing, feel that something between these two women just wasn't there. And I think especially towards the end, especially as Echo is kind of coming into her powers and understanding what they meant, it's kind of like a missed opportunity there, especially because of the familial relationship.
So I was a little bit sad about that, and that was kind of the miss for me.
[00:28:34] Speaker D: Yeah, I felt similarly to you. I feel like that would have been probably the weakest part for me. Just like I would have wanted to see more of Bonnie's relationship explored with.
[00:28:48] Speaker B: This is where it gets hard. So there's also, from what I understand, too, there was some daredevil stuff that was cut as well, because there was supposed to be scenes with him searching for someone. Correct?
No.
[00:29:07] Speaker D: Am I allowed or. I feel like this is a trick question for me to.
[00:29:14] Speaker B: This has been on the Internet. I think, actually, one of the people that it got really popular from was Dan. And so it was that he was searching for a hero in the end, and that was what was going to tie together. But that was cut ultimately, or at least it never showed up in the show.
[00:29:37] Speaker D: Basically, the main gist of it would have been, there was a little bit more.
It was supposed to tie in a little bit better to born again.
[00:29:48] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:29:48] Speaker D: Because it was supposed to connect, from my understanding, connect a little bit more echo story to what's happening in born again. But I think that with what they were going to do, that was. What was.
How do I say this without spoiling born again?
[00:30:13] Speaker B: You don't have to say anything if you don't want to.
[00:30:15] Speaker D: No, I'm trying to figure the way to put it, because you kind of put me on the spot. Essentially, what they were trying to do would have played directly into Bornagain, into what Daredevil born again was going to be originally, but not what it is now. Because if they did it as they would have done it before, then, a lot of what happened with Daredevil born again would have felt like a prequel.
There are some episodes would have felt like prequels, and then it would have just been a game of catch up, which would have led to somewhere between the midseason, I think they removed that part to kind of streamline the process and be like, to kind of make the story flow more like the ending of Echo. With the post credit scene of Fisk now being interested in the mayor's race in New York City.
That's the tease, and that's it. Right? But it would have been like, oh, if the original plan would have played out as it did in Echo, and we were in an alternate timeline where Daredevil born again was still rolling as it was. Fisk would have already been mayor by the time we started Daredevil born again. And that's kind of like, not what's not, at least to my understanding, that's not what's in play.
So they're trying to build it up slowly because they want to bring the audience for the.
[00:31:55] Speaker B: Gotcha. Okay, so, John, what didn't work for you in this show?
[00:31:59] Speaker C: Fisk. I like the actor. I don't like how they're doing him right now.
The best way I could describe it.
Think about the Joker from the Dark knight. At every point in the Dark Knight, he feels dangerous. He feels unpredictable. He feels scary. This in the Netflix show was kind of like that. And, yes, it was violent. You don't need violence for him to feel mean. I'll think about Spider man into the spider verse, for example, king kingpin straight up murders one of the Spider Men pretty brutally. And there's no blood. There's no, like, any of it. And it feels dangerous the way they did them in Echo, it kind of, like, feels like a soap opera version, like a soap opera version of the character instead of a godfather esque version of the character.
[00:33:11] Speaker B: I think that's a fair assessment. They did water him down quite a bit.
[00:33:15] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:33:16] Speaker B: He's not as more. He's definitely playing more into that father figure role that they were trying to make him have for Maya.
[00:33:25] Speaker D: All right.
[00:33:26] Speaker C: I just want to feel intimidated by the character again.
I want him to be like a PG 13 version of a Homelander.
[00:33:37] Speaker B: Sure. That makes sense.
The actor can do it. Who was terrifying in the first three seasons of Daredevil. So he could do it again.
[00:33:49] Speaker C: Yeah, he can. He's incredible actor. One of the best. But that's my biggest complaint. I'm not sure what Alex thinks, but that's kind of where I'm at.
[00:34:03] Speaker B: Okay, well, let's talk about the elephant in the room, then. So we got daredevil. He showed back up, this time in a different suit than the one that we saw in she Hulk.
This is his now third appearance in the MCU, if we're not counting the original Marvel series. So what do we think about it? Was it overhyped? Did it take away from Echo? When do we think the fight? Like, what are our thoughts on this?
[00:34:30] Speaker D: I know a lot of people really wanted to see Charlie Cox more, and people were hyping up echo mainly because, oh, Charlie Cox is going to be in it, and we're going to see Daredevil and whatnot. I think that his cameo in the first episode was just right.
I didn't need to see any more daredevil after the first episode. I think it was like a show. Just show him there once and be like, he's in this universe. He exists. These are like, the type of sometimes in comics, it would be similar to this. Like, a character pops up in a certain storyline for maybe a few pages, and then we'd never see him again in the story. And this is that kind of moment that I really liked. And personally, for me, I can't really say as to when the show, like, when this scene in particular took place. It's set in a way before, way before Hawkeye. That much we know, because she hasn't become the hardened criminal that she is. Just, um.
[00:35:47] Speaker B: And he's also wearing his Netflix suit as.
[00:35:51] Speaker D: Yeah, he looks skinnier in that. Why? I don't know why. I was looking at the suit, and I was like, this suit seems skinnier on him than the one. Like, it seems more adjusted, less buff than it was in the Netflix series. And I really don't know exactly when.
I feel like there was.
If we can pinpoint exactly when and where it.
Like, I don't know if you guys can remind me, did the daredevil scene happen before or after Maya's dad died?
[00:36:28] Speaker B: Before.
[00:36:29] Speaker D: All right, so it happened before his dad. It's possible that the book.
I know a lot of people on Twitter are giving me crap because, like, oh, you consult the timeline book. How dare you? Screw it. It's a book written by Kevin Feige, and I'll use it whenever I want, but I think the book could give us an explanation about that. So let me look that up, and you guys can keep talking about.
[00:36:57] Speaker B: You know, I do think that it was really cool to get that little cameo by him, and I agree that I liked that. It felt like a comic book. One of my favorite comic arcs ever is Secret wars, and one of my favorite comic series is actually the ones the end of days leading up to secret wars. And I loved when you're reading through that whole collection, there's, like, miss Marvel shows up in a punisher comic, and punisher shows up in a ghost rider comic, and they were all trying to do their own thing. They're all trying to just make it and survive. But you had this blip, he shows up. Blip, he's gone. And that's what that felt like to me. It's like, to remind you, like, hey, we're in the same world. But this, again, is a story, especially because it's under the new Marvel spotlight banner, that this is a story. You don't have to know anything else if you don't want to, but you could still feel a little bit connected to that bigger world, and you definitely got that with Daredevil's appearance.
And correct me if I'm wrong, this is also one of the first times we saw him really get to use the Billy club because he didn't use that. It feels like in the Netflix shows, especially, like, the way he would throw it out, and then it would come back, and he would whip it around, and I was like, oh, man, this feels like it's from the comics.
[00:38:17] Speaker C: Yeah. I don't really have a lot to add to this, but I think it was a good appetizer for what we might get in the future. And I think it's a much better appearance than the she Hulk. Which part of that appearance I liked, but the other cg esque fight I was not a big fan of, so it was great to see it go back to being a grounded bruiser, one on one fight. Like, all practical. I loved all that. I don't really have too much to add.
[00:38:55] Speaker B: It was, know, the thing I like about him in she Hulk was that it showed that there is a lighter side to Matt Murdoch. But I think that the thing that people fell in love with, especially with Charlie Cox's characterization of Matt Murdoch, is that he is very dark. So the fact that he can jump back and forth, I think is pretty brilliant.
[00:39:15] Speaker C: Oh, no, don't get me wrong. I loved all that, especially the walk of shame at the end of it.
I loved all. Just. I want to see, like, a real fight.
[00:39:30] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:39:31] Speaker C: Everything else, no, I agree with you.
[00:39:35] Speaker D: Okay.
[00:39:38] Speaker B: I agree, though. This was, like, a real fight, and it was really cool to see that. Now we're going to talk about Fisk a little bit. Did we like Fisk in this show? John, we know you did not.
[00:39:49] Speaker C: Spoiler alert.
[00:39:51] Speaker B: But did he make sense? Was he, like, a good villain per se? There was also hints of the black knife cartel, which was perhaps maybe an even better villain. But you only got to see a few tattoos. They didn't really utilize them quite. So how do we think that maybe Fisk could have be utilized a little bit better? Or what would you have liked to see more from him in this series? John, I'm going to start with you because I know that you did not like his characterization in here. What would you have rather seen with him?
[00:40:23] Speaker C: Again, I don't really know if I got too much more to add.
[00:40:26] Speaker D: Okay.
[00:40:27] Speaker C: But I will say that he's underserved in this show. I feel like there's so much more you could do with him to make him feel like a threat. As I've said before, when kingpin walks in a room, you should be scared at all times.
Even if he's being nice, you need to question why he's being nice.
[00:40:55] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:40:57] Speaker C: Everything needs to feel. Gary.
All I could really say is I do hope that the teaser at the end delivers, because I think that's a great promise of him becoming. Are we allowed to talk about that for sure. Yeah. I don't know if that's for Spiderman or if that's for the daredevil show, but, yeah, maybe both. But I am very intrigued, and I hope no more hawaiian shirts.
[00:41:38] Speaker B: We're done with them.
[00:41:40] Speaker C: Yeah, and make them scary. Come on. You do it, Marvel. Make them a threat.
[00:41:45] Speaker D: I was able to find out a little bit. I was. Sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm interrupting. I was, like, literally all over Alex in this entire span of you guys talking, I read the book. I saw the episode of Echo where the daredevil fight took place, and I also saw Hawkeye again. So at the same time, and from what I'm able to deduce, so it happened to correct you a little bit, Brian, the fight with Daredevil and Echo happened after Maya's dad died, when he's killed by Barton. Spoiler alert.
So it happened immediately after that that we know that because Spartan killed William. William Lopez, Maya's dad, when he killed, it was between spring of 2018 and the summer of 2025, when Endgame took place.
No. 2023. Jesus. 2025. God, no. So it happened between that span of five years during the blip. So the fight happened at some point during the blip, most likely before Endgame. Most likely.
And, yeah, that's pretty much my analysis on it. And it does make sense, story wise, for something I cannot explain, that happens in born again. But also adding to the points that John was talking about, like the post credit scene with Kingpin and the whole mayor run thing, this is something that we've been talking about on the cosmic surface for a while, specifically in my articles and tweets, if you guys have been reading since March of last year, I've been talking about how devil's reign is going to be the story that's going to pretty much influence this part of the MCU for now, which is just going to be like Hawkeye, Echo, Daredevil, Spider man. We're gonna see a lot of the MCU criminal underground kind of appear moving forward, and it's going to come up in Daredevil. It's going to come up in Spiderman four. From what I'm understanding, it's not going to be another multiverse story, so people can relax.
But, yeah, it's going to be interesting, I think, for a lot of reasons, because we're going to finally see the many different criminal, which is also something that happened in that post credit scene that a lot of people are really focused on kingpin becoming mayor of New York City. But there's also, when he says, contact the other heads, because now as Fisk becomes mayor, there is going to be a massive power vacuum.
There's going to be a massive space that's going to be left by Fisk because he's going to move up into the mayoral position.
He's not really going to lose his control over the criminal underground, but he has to kind of let go of those assets to kind of be good in the eyes of the public and the federal agencies that kind of oversee him. So a lot of his control is going to be taken over by most of the MCU criminal underground that a lot of people don't really know about because we haven't really been introduced to them until now, which is going to be like an echo where we had, like, the black knives cartel, and then in Daredevil born again, we're going to have a couple of more gangs introduced. And I'm hearing one that's going to be super exciting for Spiderman Four, which is going to be a couple. But there's one that I'm really excited about because it's going to be the first time we see this villain adapted in film format, and it's like a hammer to know it's going to be very exciting.
Yeah, I'm excited for that.
[00:46:04] Speaker B: So that does make me wonder, though, with what you said there, Alex, about the heads.
Now that the Netflix shows are canon, we actually have quite a few underground people from there, like the hand and Madame Gao and the Defenders dealt with a lot of these ones. Could these possibly be ones that we see come back?
[00:46:31] Speaker D: I am glad you brought up that question, because we need to talk about the Netflix canonicity of it all and how it's going to work. And it's complicated for me to explain because it is canon.
From what I understand, the shows are canon, but it's not canon in the way that most people would expect, because the shows happened within the continuity of 6116, and they're going to try their best to adapt those stories as best they can into the MCU. But that doesn't mean that Marvel Studios is going to recognize what happened in most of those stories moving forward like it happened. Sure, but they're not going to recognize a lot of that stuff because there are going to be certain recasts. There's going to be things that they're not really going to address because there's going to be certain storylines that they want to adapt.
It's a bit of a work in progress as not only they develop born again, but they also try to figure out how do they adapt what's happened in the Defenders universe to adapt it into 6116. So it seems streamlined, right? Because there are things that are going to require a lot of explanation.
For example, the last Defenders project that we all had, Jessica Jones season three, there's a lot of things that need to be explained following the season finale. There's also iron fist season know, we've got Danny Rand with the Golden Finger guns and Colleen. So that's also another thing that they need to address. There's also Luke Cage. A lot of the stuff that happened in the Defenders universe is going to be going to be canon, but isolated. I feel like it's the best way that I can put it, like it happened, but they're not going to address it the same way that in a technicality.
No, I can't use that explanation because technically Tasm and the Raimi films happened in another universe, but they then converged into 6116. The Defenders storyline is technically a part of the NCU 616-1999 whatever earth people want to call it, and it's sort of streamlined. But again, as you see, as I'm trying to explain it, it's a bit of a mess because they still haven't decided exactly what parts they're going to make canon and what parts they're going to address in born again and what parts are just going to completely ignore and be like, yeah, this never happened.
[00:49:34] Speaker B: So you're saying we're not getting Finn Jones back. This is the worst day of my life.
[00:49:38] Speaker D: Oh, my God. I didn't say that. Look, I'm the one.
I am Danny Rand and I am the iron fist of that line exists, burned into my head, and it's a crisis for me.
[00:49:56] Speaker B: I love iron fist, though. I'm just throwing that out there. I do love that show. So I'm not going to argue too much. If he does come back, I have.
[00:50:03] Speaker A: A lot of questions about that. But that's for another be.
[00:50:08] Speaker D: Yeah, that's going to be for another show. But kind of like to summarize everything and to kind of put things into perspective because I do think I love Vincent Dinofrio, and if Lizzie wants to cut this part out because it's a probable high chance if he listens to this, he might kill me. And I am afraid of Vincent as much as I am afraid of kingpin. But Vincent needs to cool it with his comments because he is making it very difficult for Marvel to kind of adapt things because she's shooting out the water. Like defenders is canon, 100%. Disney plus has that.
It's complicated because he's an actor, and yes, he has access to certain things in the room, but at the end of the day, the person that makes the final decision is Kevin. So yes, he's right in the sense that defenders is canon, but not to the degree that people are expecting. And it's a complicated situation.
[00:51:08] Speaker A: The thing about that, though, and the thing about Vincent DiNafrio's recent comments is, so this is all like, know the actors are actors, and you can pretend to be a leaker like Tom Holland when you're, know, studio talking points and helping yourself become more charming and get more public appeal. But what Dinafrio said about the defenders was 100% okayed by Marvel. He wouldn't have said that if he didn't have approval or even encouragement as part of their greater strategy. And I think this defender thing, I think it's a similar push, like the echo mature audience is saying it. I think it's a way that they're trying to hook audiences again and kind of bring people back that may have disengaged with all of the new content, with all of the new things. I think it's part of a larger marketing strategy, and I think we're likely to see more of it.
[00:52:02] Speaker D: Yeah. And I'm certain that Marvel has its plans to kind of canonize the entirety of defenders.
And if they don't have a single clue of how to do it, they can read the know. Brian has some amazing ideas, but I think, yeah, it's going to be canon, but there's going to be some omissions. They're going to try to not reference some of the things that happened, from my understanding, but the main focus is 100% going to be daredevil. Daredevil. The events of Daredevil being canon.
I don't know the names of the actors of foggy. Foggy, yeah, but they're 100%.
There's this conversation of people saying, oh, they weren't going to be in the show.
They were always going to be in the show. It's just that it wasn't in the original idea.
It wasn't going to be something that was, what's the word? It wasn't going to be something that was going to be expanded on as much as it is going to be now. Because now it's going to be, from what I'm understanding, there's going to be more than what was originally planned, and the original idea was not going to be a good idea for many people, but I think it's going to be interesting now that we're going to have the Netflix series kind of like intertwine. And until I can learn more about the show, I wouldn't necessarily classify it as a daredevil season four, but more as Marvel's take on a story and continuing it on. It's like, okay, this season ended, and now we're just going to do our own thing based on what was done here and just continue it on.
[00:54:04] Speaker A: I want to move this a little bit away from Daredevil, and I know you probably have 100 podcasts on that. I'm sure we're going to have many, many discussions about it and bring it back to the spotlight on echo a little. You know, there are a couple of things with Fisk that happened that were revealed in echo that, you know, maybe are worth talking about it. So at the end of Hawkeye, Maya shot Fisk, and it was revealed in echo that he survived. Do you guys have any theories on how he survived being shot in the eye? Apparently, because that was what we saw there.
[00:54:42] Speaker D: You can survive a bullet to the head.
I'm going to just put it out there. It is unlikely, and I know that a lot of circumstances, it's very difficult, but you can survive a bullet to the head just depending on, you have to be extremely lucky. And in my case, I think that's sort of like what's happened there. But from what I'm understanding, I don't know if the bullet hit him in the face so much as it scratched his eye, because if it would have been, it would have grazed him, because if it was talking from a medical standpoint now, I'm literally putting in the work that I'm actually doing in IRL.
When you look at the injury that he sustained, his eye was red, which means that there was, like, actual.
I don't know if. I'm pretty sure it wasn't a decision choice to be like, oh, it's just a red eye, but if it's a red eye, it means that there are blood vessels working within his eye, which means it's not a prosthetic eye, which means the bullet most likely didn't enter his eye, and it's most likely like, it grazed him. And the muzzle flash kind of burned a little bit of his eye, which leads to the scar that he has on his face. But, yeah, I don't think the bullet ever went into his head. And Maya was just.
It's like, I shot him in the face, and it's like, nah, you were shaking.
[00:56:10] Speaker A: She's a really bad shot when it comes to shooting her surrogate father, probably.
[00:56:15] Speaker C: I didn't think it made any sense personally, but I guess in Hawkeye, they kind of implied he was more durable. He was stronger and more built.
[00:56:32] Speaker A: He's a tank.
[00:56:33] Speaker C: Yeah. That's the only logic that I could really come up with. They're just a little more durable, like, written more durable.
[00:56:43] Speaker B: But they definitely made it seem in Hawkeye.
They never said it, but I got the feeling of, like, this man is the man that has the super soldier serum without having it. Kind of like he's just big and nobody can take him down, and almost like a rasputin of like, you just can't kill this person.
But it doesn't make a lot of sense because echo, I mean, Maya had a clear shot right there.
[00:57:12] Speaker A: Close range, too.
[00:57:14] Speaker B: Yeah. And I do think that, again, it was maybe a choice of not wanting to do a ton of prosthetics or CGI for the eye, so they just kind of move past it, especially when we see some of the behind the scenes of daredevil. He doesn't even have a scar on his face. He has a regular face come daredevil, and I don't know what happens there or if that's put in post or if they just don't have it in that shot.
But correct me if I'm wrong, but the shots of him running for mayor behind the scenes, he has a clean face.
[00:57:46] Speaker D: I have not seen any of the shots so far.
I'm going to find them.
[00:57:53] Speaker A: I want to think it's possibly done in post, has really good plastic surgeon, and I want to think in my head, the cabinet, he just got it fixed.
[00:58:06] Speaker B: So why can't the answer also then be magic? We live in a world where there is sorcerer supremes.
[00:58:12] Speaker D: There we go.
[00:58:13] Speaker A: I think that could be it. He went to Dr. Strange, and he said, fix me, because now they're in the same. We are. They're all in New York City. They all exist in the same place. Which is a discussion for another time.
[00:58:28] Speaker C: Yeah. Guys, I figured it out. I solved it, okay? It's all hawaiian shirt.
[00:58:38] Speaker B: That saved him. End of story.
[00:58:40] Speaker C: That's it.
[00:58:41] Speaker B: It was Wong's hawaiian shirt which saved him.
[00:58:46] Speaker A: I think we have it solved. So, moving on.
[00:58:52] Speaker D: We, since we're talking about the medical applications and everything, I just want to point out, because it literally bugged me, and then we're going to talk about this. The contact lens that he puts in Maya's eye, bro. I had so many qualms with that. First off, the technology is amazing, but for reasons, why is it only in one eye? And secondly, he did not wash his hands when he inserted that damn contact lens, bro. No, don't do that.
[00:59:22] Speaker A: Infection central.
[00:59:24] Speaker D: That's literally the first thing they teach. Don't do that. I was so stressed. I was watching that, and I was like, oh, my God. That's probably the scariest part of the entire show. Not that it's scary or that people can fight or the bloodiness of it. Just like, the idea of someone putting in another contact lens in, and it's like, my God.
[00:59:46] Speaker A: Bullets won't kill her. Germs will.
[00:59:49] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:59:52] Speaker A: Do we think know there's a lot of family trauma surrounding know she lost her mom, and we saw it in that opening and that really dramatic, painful scene, but she also lost her dad. Can we talk about why Fisk killed his dad or her dad? Because that's not really explained. Can we also talk about who we thought cut the brakes on Echo and her mom?
[01:00:21] Speaker B: That's a great question. Alex, I'm going to let you start because I feel like you have something more so than I can give to this.
[01:00:30] Speaker D: I didn't hear the question because it was cutting out for me. Can repeat the question.
[01:00:35] Speaker A: So Echo's got a lot of trauma, right? She's lost her parents, and she lost them in two very different ways, but kind of related. Right? So Fisk killed Echo's dad. We don't exactly know why. So I'd like to know your theories on why. And also I'd like to know who cut the brakes on Echo and her mom's car when they were driving in Oklahoma. If you guys have.
[01:01:00] Speaker D: Oh, that's a really good.
Most. Fisc makes the most sense for the breaks.
For both.
For the breaks. It makes sense because it's sort of implied throughout the series that he has this weird obsession with know even before his dad died. So I don't know why. I'm getting the feeling that whenever we saw Lopez with the tracksuit mafia and being part of that group, I'm sure Kingpin had to have known that he had a daughter. I don't know. I feel like he was trying to build. He wanted Maya to kind of be as a surrogate daughter, to have her be like the person that builds up his empire or something. But, yeah, that's my take on it. I'm sure that that was part of the reason, and I think Kingpin sent William to be killed simply just to build Maya up, to be like this, to be, like, know. To become him, a better version of him, albeit not in the best way possible, just be a more ruthless asshole than he is. So that's kind of like what I think he was trying to do. But that's my take on it.
[01:02:36] Speaker B: I think the interesting storyline that would have been here, or that could still be here, is that him and Vanessa did not have children, and therefore, he wanted the idea of this family, because image was so important to him, and he wanted to give Vanessa this child. And I wish that Vanessa would have been in the storyline, because I feel like it would have made sense for, like, I can't have a child, therefore I'm going to steal one. And that's such a very interesting motivation. And as a psychologist, I would sit there and I kept thinking. I'm like, why are you so obsessed? Because it almost feels. I mean, it is predatory. It's a very predatory relationship. But why? What is the reason why, Maya, you could have anybody. And so it's interesting that sometimes when individuals go through trauma like that, they can fixate on one person. So that makes sense to me. And I was hoping for that. That's what I was kind of hoping for out of that last episode that we didn't get, which now we know that it maybe is more bonnie centric, but that would have tied it all together a little bit better for me.
[01:03:37] Speaker A: I think the fact that you honed in on this relationship with Vanessa is really key, because she is the missing part in all of this surrogate family that he's tried to create. She's never mentioned with any of the Maya stuff in Hawkeye or in echo. And it's a huge oversight. I mean, we see the painting, right? The painting briefly flashes on screen. Is that in episode one of Echo that was so significant between Vanessa and Fisk? But that's it. And Fisk doesn't seem to be all that sad that she's not in his, you know, in Daredevil. He was quite torn up when they were apart.
[01:04:21] Speaker B: Absolutely. Especially during the blip. Could you imagine if Vanessa was gone and he was around? That man would be a maniac. He would be homicidal in every sense of the.
It is. It's just interesting. And I feel like I do agree with Alex that I think that it all leads back to Fisk as to why Maya's life got totally upended. I think that that was the missing piece, though. They should have explained that a little bit more, or maybe that is to come, and maybe once we have that answer, we'll make more sense, because I feel like that is so important to this storyline, and that was one of the things that we were missing, is why.
[01:04:58] Speaker C: Maya, if I may add something, I sort of feel like it's kind of implied a little bit while the father died, because her dad seemed to have more of a conscience, and you could tell that he didn't really fit in with that entire dynamic. And I guess, to me, I kind of draw the conclusion that he did something to make this mad. Whether he didn't follow through with killing somebody or whether it kind of just like, it both implied why he died. He was a good person in a bad world.
I don't know what you all think about that.
[01:05:54] Speaker B: That's an excellent point. I didn't think about that, but, yeah, no, you're right. There is definitely some implications for that.
[01:05:59] Speaker A: I think that makes sense, especially with his dealings with Ronan. There's a line there. There's something to that. So I think that's a great perspective on it. Again, because this is the kingpin show as much as Echo, it seems, because so much of her is tied to him. And I'm jumping ahead a little bit. What do we think Echo did to kingpin after she had her powers, when she put her hand to his head and kind of experienced his painful memories there?
What does that mean for her? What does that mean for him, and what does that mean for all of us going forward?
[01:06:39] Speaker B: That's a great question. It's interesting because I think that she touched him and to heal him, but I don't know if it worked, because she saw that pain and she saw that anger, and she tried to reach out to him and to get him to heal from that, obviously, with her powers.
But as we know, he continues on, and at the end, when we see that post credit scene, we see that he is embracing whatever.
He's turning away from being good. He could be good, but I guess we don't know he's going to be bad, but there's just a look on his face that you just know he has some nefarious plans going on. So I think that she tried to heal him of his emotional pain, and I don't know if it. I actually. I actually can say I probably think it didn't.
[01:07:30] Speaker D: I think she just healed his eye. I think she provided the solution as to why kingpin doesn't have the scar in born again. Maybe it's progressive. He's just progressively healing as time goes on, because I'm kind of, like, looking at the post credit scene, and I'm like, yeah, you know what? He has the scar in his eye still in the post credit scene, but his eyes looking a little bit better.
[01:07:53] Speaker B: I sent the picture in the chat, too, and you can see that he does not have the scar when he's in his suit. For daredevil, born again when they were filming, so there's definitely something going on. But the fact is they also took him to his past. When he saw that, when she touched him and went into his mind, it did pull him to the past. So there was some kind of emotional healing trying to go on, too, and.
[01:08:15] Speaker A: Expands the scope of her powers in some ways because she has the physical healing through her mom. And I don't think her mom displayed that emotional healing. I don't think her mom displayed that ability to go into another person's trauma. Maybe I missed that. We didn't see the bird's trauma, right.
[01:08:35] Speaker B: I'm sure there was a lot of it.
[01:08:36] Speaker A: Yeah, let's just go because we're getting close on time. Let's talk about that.
You know, we've danced around it a little. What's. What's next for Echo? What's next for.
Is she she. Because I think, Alex, you said she was kind of morally ambiguous earlier. Do you still feel that way, know, the whole series? Do you feel like she has a different sort of purpose?
And what do we think is going on for Fisk as time goes on? Two sort of different questions.
[01:09:08] Speaker D: As for Echo, I can see her being a defender for her know, I don't really see her moving out of Oklahoma unless there's, like, an actual reason.
I'm thinking she's going to be there for a while. She's going to be defending her family because that's kind of like the whole point of the show. So I'm expecting her to be there, but I'm also expecting Fisk becoming mayor of NYC to kind of be something that affects her in a, like, his power as mayor of NYC. While it may be regional, we already saw the reaches that, you know, with the whole Maya's uncle having control of that railway system, that's like a transportation system, like the transportation system that he has. And that's something that was actually also a part that was a very important part that was cut from Echo, but was also meant to just show how much reach has, like Fisk has control of. I don't call him Uncle Lopez because I think it's Henry. Henry was the name of the uncle. I don't remember Maya's uncle. The one that had like the railroad, the one that had control of the railways and the like, that connected Fisk to the rest of the states and by association all of his last names and his teams and whatnot. So whatever happens in Daredevil born again and possibly Spiderman four, it's definitely going to affect Echo indirectly. And who knows, she may pop up in Echo. I'm not an echo in daredevil born again.
I don't see her really popping up again for Spiderman. King Finn, on the other hand, 100% expect him to win the mayor's race in New York City and kind of just like establish him as a New York City centric villain that's going to kind of oppose all the heroes that are currently in New York City, and that includes the people at what's their name, the people that are involved with daredevil, Spider man, other possible heroes. I'm hearing white tiger, like, born again, which is really cool because both Hector and Ava, I think was her name, the daughter. Both of those heroes are amazing and they're know, puerto rican superheroes, so that's awesome. But there's those heroes. There's other heroes. Brian knows of one which we're not allowed to discuss yet. There's also punisher. I told you about it.
[01:12:07] Speaker B: Listen, it's ADHD, my friend.
[01:12:11] Speaker D: I told you about it.
[01:12:12] Speaker A: Squirrel.
[01:12:12] Speaker D: Good. Squirrel. I told you about it and you were excited about it too. There's also a punisher. There's also that. There's also that aspect that kind of has to deal with.
Okay, yeah. Now you remember and now you're going to shut up about.
[01:12:29] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[01:12:30] Speaker D: I don't know what you're talking about.
[01:12:31] Speaker A: What do you think?
[01:12:32] Speaker C: I feel like I don't have anything better than what Alex, just like he's the expert on all this.
I don't think she's morally ambiguous. I think she's a good person.
I think Kingpin wanted her to be morally ambiguous. That didn't work out. As far as everything else. I mean, you already know my thoughts on Kingpin.
Beat that dead horse. And just want to add one thing. I'd rather have the hawaiian shirt come back than bring back.
[01:13:21] Speaker A: Sorry, Brian.
[01:13:22] Speaker C: Yeah.
[01:13:23] Speaker B: Yikes, that hurts.
[01:13:27] Speaker C: Yeah.
[01:13:28] Speaker A: Before we wrap it up for the night, is there anything, any final thoughts that you guys have on echo that you want to share or kind of opinions series, things you loved?
[01:13:38] Speaker B: Real quick, I want to go back to the post credit scene because I didn't get to say anything I want to say?
So just Alex was talking about where Echo is going to show up, and if anybody hasn't read this book, they probably should. But there is a prequel novel to the Spider man game, and the story is all about Echo, Kingpin and Spider man. And it really gives you an idea of how it could play out and where she could show up and what dynamics she could have. Looking forward to the MCU, because I know that things are kind of changing, and I know that Alex has kind of talked about this in different articles and looking forward to the multiverse and what's going to happen with the multiverse. And I'm really interested in thinking or wondering what you guys all think about this, but is it possible that as the multiverse cracks open and we get to battle world, can she echo all of her ancestors across the entire multiverse? Or is it just this universe? Because I think that could lead to some very interesting powers on top of that, because the possibilities are endless and it depends on how it would work. I want to say, yes, I want to say that she would be able to channel everybody, but I could be completely wrong and just really hopeful here.
[01:14:56] Speaker C: Do we actually think that they're going to bring the street characters into that battle, do you think?
[01:15:05] Speaker B: Well, now that it's canon and that they didn't bring them to the end of Endgame, those poor street level characters, they have to.
[01:15:13] Speaker A: I want to see what blipped and wasn't blipped. But again, that's a discussion for another day.
Okay, so I think this was a really great conversation. Thank you all out there for listening to our merry little podcast as we chat at Echo and Kingpin and so much.
[01:15:32] Speaker D: The final thing, because you said one more thing, the final note that you wanted to talk about Echo and what else we liked. Best opening credits.
Best opening credits. Yeah. The opening for Echo was absolutely amazing. It was a bump up above from what happened in secret invasion, so I'm glad.
[01:15:51] Speaker A: They kind of, like anything would be a bump up from secret invasion.
[01:15:57] Speaker D: That was one of my favorites.
That was the last day I wanted to.
[01:16:03] Speaker A: Yeah, perfect.
Well, I think that's amazing.
Again, thanks for listening, echo. I'm Isla Ruby. This has been the cosmic circle, the official podcast for thecosmicsrcus.com. Thank you for listening to our 50th episode. Who are you guys, and how can we find out more about you?
[01:16:21] Speaker B: My name is Brian Kitson, head writer at the cosmic circus, and you can find me on Twitter at kitson 301.
[01:16:29] Speaker C: I'm John Dodson. You can find me on Twitter at John movie watch or x, whatever it is. I don't know.
You could also find my work at cosmic circus and monsters and critics.
[01:16:46] Speaker D: I'm Alex Perez, and when I'm not being held down by lizzie on discord, you can find me on Twitter or on X at alex from Cc. And you can also check out my
[email protected] and also our cosmic circus discord, where we talk with all of our followers and everyone part of the cosmic circus fam is on there. So, yeah, feel free to check us out at any time on the cosmic circus discord.
[01:17:14] Speaker A: And the discord is free, so you totally should join. Yes. All right. Well, thank you, guys. Have a nice night.
