[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome back, listeners, to another episode of the Cosmic Circle, the official podcast of the Cosmic Circus. On today's episode, we will be discussing our favorite Sci-Fi series ever. At least I'm assuming it is for the other two here, because it is for me. We're going to be talking about Doctor who, specifically the new era of Doctor who. That's beginning on Disney or BBC in the UK. Yes. Joining me today on this episode, we have Vic and we have Cameron Brooke. How are we doing today, guys?
[00:00:29] Speaker B: I am good, thank you. Excited to talk about Doctor who because it is, as you say, one of my favorite, like, science fiction tv shows as well. I feel like the British have really good science fiction. So that's one good thing about being here.
[00:00:44] Speaker A: Are you claiming it? Are you claiming it as the home of the Sci-Fi series?
[00:00:49] Speaker B: I'd say so, yeah. We've got some good ones.
[00:00:52] Speaker A: All right. We'll give that to you. How you doing, Vic?
[00:00:55] Speaker C: Hello there. I'm very good. And I have to say that in my opinion, it's obligation of every british person to work for her. So I hope.
I hope that as a polish person, I'm not gonna go, you know, I'm not gonna get far behind.
[00:01:12] Speaker A: I do love this, that we have quite the collection here, you know, living in Michigan, in the United States, someone from Poland, someone from the doctor who homeland. Like, we have so many different, um, so many different takes on probably what this show means to us and how it began. And I kind of want to start there. So I'm going to start with. With you, Cam, what was your experience into getting started with Doctor who? And, like, how long have you been a fan? Like, what's been your journey through the universe?
[00:01:41] Speaker B: I started all the way back with Christopher Eccleston. So when it was, like, first set, well, second time renewed for, like, the BBC, I think I can just about remember as a kid, like, there was really big talk about doctor who coming back. So, you know, I used to sit down on the sofa with my dad and, you know, we'd tune into Doctor who and it's just so amazing to have this, like, kind of. Well, I think it was, like, fairly low budget back then, sort of. But the visuals at the time, like, when you're a kid, you don't think about budgets and stuff like that, but it's just so amazing to get stuck into it. And it was like completely new as well. Like, you had all the old doctor who stuff, but I never really knew about that till was a bit older. So, yeah, it was just really good to get started from Christopher Eccleston. And I've seen every single episode, you know, like the night it's come out ever since. So, yeah, it's been very exciting.
[00:02:35] Speaker A: So growing up as, like, as a kid, you know, you said that there was. There was kind of talk about it. Was it an excitement buzz? Was it like a confused as the show's coming back, like, what was it? Do you remember what that was like?
[00:02:47] Speaker B: Not too much on the news. I just remember it was sort of like, got, like. I remember when, like, you went into a toy shop and it was just all the, like, you had the, like, long doctor who logo, all the aliens, like, all the doctors. So, yeah, it was like, probably like a really big sort of event from what I can remember. But I just remember watching all the Christopher Eccleston and then it's been an addiction ever since then, pretty much.
[00:03:11] Speaker A: I love that. 20 years pretty much. Because 2005, we're almost there, you know, watching it. Vic, how about for you? What was your journey into Doctor who?
[00:03:20] Speaker C: It was very long because I started in 2020 when COVID came and there were too many things to watch.
Definitely there were too many things because before Doctor who, I finished Smallville in a month and a half. So I just wanted another show. And when I was thinking, like, maybe I need something Sci-Fi not superhero stuff. And then I remembered, okay, there's Doctor who. I heard so many great things about it, but I never had the chance to watch it because in Poland we had to pay for BBC and they.
Well, they weren't transmitting every single episode even in order. They were just mixing it up. And I decided it's time to start from the beginning, but not from the beginning beginning. I started with Eccleston and I had my problems with the show because it was old. Like, it was really old. And I had to spend some time to get used to it. And when tenant came and it was. I think it was with Marta when she was a companion, I just started to feel it, like it's something I really, really like. And then there was Matt Smith, there was Capaldi and there was Jody. But it's funny because I started my journey with Eicholston but the doctor that I'm following, you know, from regeneration is shooty. So it's kind of funny. Like it all, you know, mixes up. But, yeah, it was a really, really great journey. And I finished all new who because I think, yeah, the 13th season didn't came out, so it was just twelve seasons. So I caught up ten seasons, I think, in two months. Like, yeah, it's a lot. But, you know, when I love a show and it's. It has many seasons, and, you know, I just spent. I have time. I spent it on binging it. And doctor who was amazing. I.
Wow, I cried many times. I laughed many times. But, yeah, but we'll get to it. We'll get to it.
[00:05:50] Speaker A: It's interesting. We have somebody who's watched it for 20 years. We have someone who's watched it since the pandemic, and I've been watching it for.
I started the series in the break between Matt Smith's 6th and 7th season, which I remember being.
It was like an extended period of time between the doctor, the widow, and the wardrobe and then the return of season seven. And my friend had been bugging me for a long time.
She was like, you have to watch this show. It's great. And I was like, yeah, I'll get to it. I'll get to it. And I happened to have been laid off from a job, and I didn't have anything to do. I was just sitting around kind of waiting for something to happen, and I decided, okay, I'm going to watch this. And I like you, Vic. I demolished that show pretty quickly.
But one of the deciding things for me that was really hard was it was on Netflix here in America. And I had gotten to the second to last episode of David Tennant's original run, and they had pulled it from Netflix and there was nowhere to watch it.
And I remember being laid off, no money. And I went and I, you know, I was living with my parents. I was still in college, and I was like, mom, I have to buy these DVD's. I have to know what's going to happen here.
And she did. She bought them for me. And I caught up. And I've been watching it since season seven live. And it has been quite the journey. I mean, we've been through since then. We've been through three, four, I mean, I guess if you count ten again, four or five doctors now, so much has changed on the show, but that's part of the beauty of it, is that the show is always changing and regenerating.
So I'm going to ask both of you then, what is your favorite doctor and what is your favorite companion? And they don't have to be together. I'll give you that. They don't have to be in the same season. They don't have to travel together. I just want to know who's your favorite and who's the best. And then I'll let you get out.
[00:07:44] Speaker B: My favorite doctor, I want to say at the moment, I mean, it could change with shoot he sees and it get further in, but at the moment, it's probably Peter Capaldi kind of grew on me over the time, but I do really feel like he was kind of a harking back to, like, some of the older doctors in that way, like, the older man. And he's scottish and angry at everything, and, you know, he has these really wacky companions a lot of the time, and I really enjoyed him. And, missy, I think they were some amazing episodes when all of that was a thing. And my favorite companion, I mean, it's gonna be Donna noble, because, I mean, it's Donna Noble. Like, when she, when it was announced she was coming back for the anniversary specials, that was, like, highlight of my year, in a way, just to find out what happened with her. Like, obviously, it's like one of the most heart sort of wrenching endings to her companionship with the doctor, so. But, yeah, just absolutely love, like, her comedy and, like, how funny she is and, and all that stuff about, you know, not wanting to mate with the doctor and. Yeah, stuff like that. So, yeah, they're my two.
[00:08:56] Speaker A: Absolutely. I mean, they're so different. First off, one is so serious and one is so funny. But, like, I love that you're right. You can't go wrong with either one of those.
What about you, Vic?
[00:09:07] Speaker C: Okay, so it's also Capaldi. Like, I'm a very big stan for Peter Capaldi's doctor. And it's because I see myself in him in a way, because when he became a doctor, he was so cold. He was, you know, really pragmatic. He, he didn't care much about relations between people, about emotions. You know, I remember that iconic scene with Clara where he just says, when people are hugging, they just lie and cover their emotions. They're hiding their emotions. And, you know, in recent years, I had my ups and downs, and I kind of evolved in a person who, from a person who, you know, didn't like, you know, going out of people, going out of friends much, except going to the cinema to watch a movie or something. And in recent years, it just evolved when I just, you know, started going out to the people, showing more emotions, showing myself. And it's kind of why I. I don't know how to, you know, to exactly say it, but I see myself because I see a lot of myself in the Capaldi and, you know, in the reverse. So that's why? And also, who doesn't love him? I mean, I know why people may not like him, but there's a lot of positive way, positive things to say about him, but about companions, I think it's, of course, Clara. For me, the relationship between Mat Smith's doctor and Pital Capaldi's doctor with Clara, you know, it was something that really started this whole journey, you know, to Clara's death, to doctor being bad in a way. Evil in a way, especially in the season nine finale.
So, yeah, so Clara is one of them. I liked Bill.
Like, she had some nice moments, but I don't know if you will mention it, Brian, but Amy and Rory, like, they are forever, forever in my heart.
[00:11:27] Speaker B: Boo.
[00:11:29] Speaker C: Why?
[00:11:31] Speaker A: I. So this is the thing. It's just, okay, I was 100%. Matt Smith is my favorite doctor. I think he might actually be replaced by, um, and shooty because he's got me. He's got a grip on me right now, and I can't wait to see where he goes. Um, but Matt Smith has always been my favorite, and there's just something about his doctor, very childlike, very, like, hilarious, without meaning to.
And while I think it was a really. I think one of the reasons why I did like, compulsive so much as well is because there was such a foil to Matt Smith's crazy, wild adventures. But I think that the reason, and this is part of the thing I actually mentioned in my review of the first two episodes, which will be coming out probably before this comes out. But I have a problem with characters, specifically in the show. There's a lot of women who become plot points, and I did not like that. A lot of Amy's run was Amy being a plot point. She was the girl who waited, and then she was kidnapped, and then she was, you know, and then she was the mother of Riversong, and then Riversong was her own plot point. And, like. And so I do have this problem. Yeah, well, I mean, at this point.
[00:12:51] Speaker B: Yeah, it's okay if you haven't watched it. If you want a doctor who podcast, then it's your own fault.
[00:12:57] Speaker A: I was going to give a spoiler warning before we get into later parts, but, yes, no, obviously, spoilers, everybody. We will be talking about doctor who over the last 20 years, specifically over the last four months, five months, since Christmas, whenever it was.
So if you haven't watched the, the third special, the giggle, you haven't watched the church on Ruby Road, and if you haven't watched space babies and what is the other? Oh, the devil's chord. Get out of here. Go watch them and then come back.
But that there, I didn't. So Amy became such a plot point for me that, like, it became almost grating. And I hate to say that because I just finished watching her season with my nephew, and we are in the middle of. Actually, we just watched the first episode of Capaldi and Clara, and Clara is my favorite. And it's funny to say that because she's also a plot point for the first six episodes. But I think that there is an interesting thing where she becomes less of a plot point as she goes on, which is what redeemed her about me was that she wasn't just there for a storyline. She ended up becoming just a really good friend to the doctor and having this life, and they had this beautiful kind of relationship. And so that is why Clara is one of my favorites. But, um, yeah, so. Sorry. Sorry. I didn't mean to harass you there about Amy and Rory.
[00:14:17] Speaker C: Yeah, not a problem. I mean, you know, we all have our favorite. We all have our favorites. But, you know, now that you're saying, I think that, you know, I may have my favorite doctor, but Matsv and David Tennant are, you know, really close, you know, just like millimeter away. Because, you know, I'm connected with them in a way because I cried when Tenant regenerated. I cried when Smith regenerated and all that because, you know, it's a good show. It works on your emotions and it plays on your emotions and, you know, but that's what you said before, the care, the companion being a plot point.
I also don't like it. I didn't like it when.
When Dona was a plot point, when the first knew who companion was a plot point. And it's something that I really don't like to see, especially now. I think Russell T. Davies, you know, would learn his lesson. But, yeah, Ruby, I mean, yeah, we'll have to.
[00:15:24] Speaker A: We'll get to the ruby. But, you know, the thing about Donna, which I'm glad that she came back, is that this the specials. And, you know, I'm gonna. I'm gonna shoot this over to cam in his opinion about this as well. But like, with the specials, they made her, like, an anti plot point after that first episode, which I love because she was, again, just a character after they had built her up to be the plot point at the very end of her season. She, because she was just a person up until that point, you know, did you like that? Did you feel like that was like a good maybe vibe for how this new, see, this new revival is doing.
[00:15:56] Speaker B: Yes. I enjoyed sort of, obviously, getting back with her and finding out, you know, she's got a daughter and all of that kind of thing was very exciting. So she's had this whole, like, life without the doctor. And then even when the doctor comes back and all of the stuff happens, like, she still doesn't go away with him or anything, like, still has this life, you know, she, I mean, she ends up working with unit or whatever by the end, or they hinted at that stuff, but it's like, you know, even though the doctors come in and, like, helped her out or whatever, like, she's still her own person in the end. So it's very, like, interesting to have her back and, like, introduce the new series to Doctor who because in a way, she's kind of passing the torch to the younger viewers, kind of using her daughter as that way. So it was, I enjoyed all of.
[00:16:46] Speaker A: That lot, and I know that her daughter, we've seen it in the trailer that her daughter's coming back. So I'm hoping that there's, there's a reality where Donna shows back up here, especially because they show them working with unit.
[00:16:57] Speaker B: Yes. I would very much like to sort of see or if, even if she's just mentioned or something, you know, I mean, whether, whether they talk about, you know, the other doctor that's out there, whatever he's doing with his life, you know, be interesting to see where they take him from the end of the giggle. But, yeah, it's just. It'll be good to see, I think.
[00:17:19] Speaker A: Absolutely. Speaking of the giggle, that was the real introduction of Shudi's doctor.
There was something that we've never seen before in Doctor who, at least, you know, I hadn't seen it. Nobody seemed to know what it was, but we had a, by generation, and they acted like it was this lore that had been talked about for, you know, like, it doesn't happen. It's something that, like, time lords just kind of spoke about in, like, rumors and, and it happened. And then we have two doctors, so, you know, starting with Yuvik. What do you, what do you feel about that? Do you think that was a good move? Do you think that was an interesting way to introduce the 15th Doctor?
What are your thoughts on it?
[00:18:00] Speaker C: I mean, with everything that happened to Thailand's Doctor, it's something that didn't make him dirty. Like, it was something that, you know, we all thought that it's a cheap move to just bring Tenet for three episodes and kill him again or regenerate him again. But with this move, they really did it. And I really liked it because, you know, when Russell T. Davis spoke about it, he said that with these, by generations, all previous doctors just came back and they all have their own tardisist. But, you know, I thought about it and, you know, of course there's somewhere in the time there, there's always a Doctor with his or her own TARDIS. But I think that he implied that they can live in the same moment and not be into, you know, not be messing everything or anything, you know, and I really liked it because that way we have tenant who, you know, you bring, you brought justice to him and you have him happy, you know, he's living right back. I think it was his home at the end of the eagle.
[00:19:11] Speaker A: It is his home according to the book, at least it's his home.
[00:19:14] Speaker C: Yeah. So that's a really nice move. Like, finally, doctor has his own life and that's something that, you know, we can speculate about, we can love to hear about. And I really like that we have one doctor, Shuti, who's exploring the galaxy, who's saving people, and there are other doctors who we don't know what they are doing because they may have new adventures after they bi generated.
And I think it's a really good way to bring doctors back in unexpected ways.
I mean, not in like, you know, in the middle of a season, but maybe in a special in some years, like, you can bring back Capaldi, you can bring back Smith, Jody, David again, maybe David will, you know, come back in other shows because we know there are spin offs. Maybe he will come back.
At least I hope so.
[00:20:13] Speaker A: Yeah, but that man's gonna come back until he's dead, he's not going to be there.
[00:20:20] Speaker B: Maybe the 80th two.
[00:20:22] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, definitely. And I really counting on it. And I love the idea of biro generations. So, yeah, so I'm all in.
[00:20:32] Speaker A: You know, it does paint when I just recently watched the 50th anniversary and with the idea of the my generation and that there's all of these doctors out there and they're all separate right now and it does bring, it does put into perspective them all showing up a little bit easier because I know that was just like a cool fan service moment, but it does kind of paint that full moment for Doctor who. And I was like, damn. Ten years later. And even though it's maybe a retcon, like, we got our explanation.
[00:20:57] Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. Because in the 50th anniversary episode, we were told that they met, but they don't remember it. Except Matt Smith, because he was, you know, he was the main doctor at the time, so he remembered it. But now you can bring them back and don't erase their memory. And it's. Wow, I. I'm really excited. I just, you know, I really love this idea. I just want. I just want to see my favorite doctor's back for sure.
[00:21:30] Speaker A: Absolutely. Um, Cam, how was the by generation for you? You know, how. How was it received in, like, you know, you said you watched it with your father, something. How was it received in the world, you know, or kind of like, in your general vicinity? Did you like it? Did people like it? How was it? What was it like?
[00:21:50] Speaker B: Yeah, I think people quite, you know, obviously. I think there was a few at the time, mixed opinions, sort of, like, there's a lot of. Obviously, a lot of people online have a lot to say all the time about things. But I really enjoyed it. I thought it's a sort of excellent way to sort of have continuing adventures, like, even with older doctors, because obviously there's people that absolutely, you know, love David Tennant, and now they've kept him. They can keep him going for more adventures. And I really like the idea that his doctor gets to rest now. Like, he doesn't have to be the one to save the day anymore.
And I really like the two tardIs's as well. Like, the last little bit of the, you know, toymakers.
Toys. Yeah. Used to sort of split the TARDIs in two because I imagine if there was another by regeneration, then the other Doctor won't get a TarDiS, so. But, yeah, so I enjoyed that. I think it was like. Yeah, a lot of. Yeah. And then sort of discussing it with people, like, at work or whatever, like, there was a lot of, like, support for it and obviously a lot of people excited that, you know, David could come back at any point and, you know, we might see Donagh again and all of that thing. So it's. Yeah, it was very exciting to watch.
[00:23:07] Speaker A: As much as I loved it because obviously, this was a rumor that was out there. We've kind of known about it for a while. I had this worry for a bit of time where it's just, you know, does this undermine the new Doctor specifically? You know, we are introducing a person of color. We are introducing a member of the LGBTQ community. Like, there are some big firsts that we are doing here. A very young doctor, pretty, like the youngest. I'm going to just go ahead and say that I'm pretty sure got what is the youngest doctor we've had to date?
Did this undermine them at all? And I don't think it did. I think that they did it handled in a very nice way where you got to have both of them and you did kind of see, like, David Tennant's doctor retire in a way, Grant. I think he will come back eventually. But there was this still the passing of the torch, and it still is very much like this is. That was Doctor who now. And so I did like it. It just was a different layer. Something new, something different. And Doctor who should always be changing.
[00:24:11] Speaker B: Yes, absolutely. Yeah, I think that's what a lot of the debate was at the time. Like, does it undermine Shooty's sort of doctor? But obviously now we know it definitely hasn't. Sort of. And, you know, I didn't think it did in the episode either. Like, he got, like, the moments to shine, obviously, dealing with the toy maker and then splitting the TARDIS in two as his, like, crazy idea and saying goodbye to the Doctor, and then he zooms off to his new adventures and then, you know, you get the final bit with David at the end just to retire, like his Doctor from the specials kind of thing. So that was exciting.
[00:24:50] Speaker A: Absolutely. And then next we had church on Ruby Road, which we're not going to dive into too much just because I want to make sure we save room for the two episodes we just had. You know, it's been since Christmas, but, you know, it was Shudi's first full length episode as the Doctor as well as we got introduced to Ruby, played by Millie Gibson. And the thing I loved about this is that we was the chemistry that the two of these characters had together. You know, these actors, not only can you tell that they're having fun on set, but they are just.
They're good. They reminded me a lot of the chemistry that we saw with Eccleston and Piper, you know, that the fun kind of levity, but there's also these really tough moments that we're having, and I think that we saw that a lot in space babies.
Just for those who, if you're still listening and you haven't watched it real quick, Space Babies is about babies in space. You know, this is definitely like a one off monster of the week adventure. It was definitely meant to be a little more fun. Did kind of sideline some of the major storylines, which is the RWBY storyline.
Cam, what did you kind of think of this episode?
[00:26:00] Speaker B: I really enjoyed space babies. I imagine it was originally supposed to be like the new year's special, I guess, because it does take place just after the Christmas one. I don't know if there's anything out there about it, whether or not they didn't finish the visuals in time, but as like a first proper shooty episode, I thought it was, like, really sort of fun, wacky. Like, it's something that you need for Doctor who because if new people are watching it and, you know, you have a really wacky episode of Doctor who, if it's not for them, the rest of the show is not going to be for them because that's what Doctor who is, like, wacky, cheesy, all of that stuff. But, you know, I really enjoyed it and, like, it had all the good doctor who bits. Like, it had like, the sort of deeper meaning, sort of with, like, you know, babies and how they're treated and being left and all of that and, like, only being cared about when they're, you know, in someone's womb or something.
But, yeah, so I thought it was like, I don't had all the hallmarks of, like, a really good sort of starting Doctor who episode, but I think it would have still would have worked better as like a New Year's special or something before the start of the new season.
[00:27:13] Speaker A: I agree. I think that it definitely had the feel because they kept. It was interesting, you know, we're in may now and they kept referencing Christmas and, like, it's still Christmas and it's still. And I was like, okay, I mean, like, I get it because time doesn't move, but like, most Doctor who episodes, when they. They move, it's time's passed and you just know that time's passed. Like, there's not, like, really. But, like, I was like, this feels like a two parter almost, you know, with the church on Ruby Road.
And I also did love, like you said to, you know, the social commentary about governmental involvement of, like, making people have babies, but they're not taking care of them. And I was just like, wow, this is. We're right off the bat. We are taking the sponsor of the week and we are shooting. We're having a heavy hitter moment. And I did not know if that was going to happen with Disney because, again, I know that Disney's not really involved, but I didn't know if they had, like, notes that they would be giving. And that feels like a very one two punch that Disney would not wanted to have addressed. Glad that the BBC is still running this ship. Um, because that was. I think that was that that was the episode and that was a very important moment that I think needed to be addressed and like talked about in the grander scheme of things.
What about you, Vic? What do you think of space babies?
[00:28:25] Speaker C: First of all, when I saw space babies for the first scene, I had imminent flashbacks to love and monsters. I don't know why, but I just, you know, I just thought, oh no, they're doing baby episode. Because back then, the babies, the kids wrote the Doctor who episode, but now the kids are involved in this episode. And I thought, oh my God, what am I watching?
[00:28:57] Speaker A: That's fair.
[00:28:58] Speaker C: Yeah, that's fair.
But all in all, I mean, it's nice that it's a direct continuation to the Christmas episode because, you know, it immediately lets the younger audience to, you know, to feel that it's Doctor who, it's for everyone. And what you said that it's right after the Christmas episode, but the second episode is happening in April, so.
[00:29:26] Speaker B: In June, actually. Devil's cold.
[00:29:29] Speaker C: Yeah, June. Okay, so even in the future. Yeah, yeah, but I think that doesn't matter in the long run. Yeah, they always time traveling, so. Yeah, but the space babies. Oh my God. Okay, so the first half of it was kinda interesting, but not that much. And the second part when they were, you know, revealing what happened, what is what, and what exactly are the problems, the modern problems in that future.
It was very interesting because we could see, just like you said, many, many Easter eggs or anything, or whether we want to like it, the references to our modern times, to 2024. And it was scary and brave in a way, because not every show does, you know, such references in such a bold way and honest way.
Yeah. But yeah, it's. It's a really nice episode. Like for the first episode of the new season, of the first season or for me, it will always be a 14 season.
[00:30:48] Speaker A: Yeah, it's okay. Change is hard. We get that.
[00:30:51] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. I just have to accept that. Yeah, move on. But yeah, for the first episode of the season one or season 14 or whatever, it was really nice. And I liked, it was just, you know, just a casual monster of the week. Yeah. And I liked it.
[00:31:08] Speaker A: You know, it was a very good episode, but something that I had noticed. And it's not that I dislike it because that's the next question. It's like, what worked and what didn't? Because I know why they did it. But I did think it was interesting that, like, if we're talking about Shudi's time as the Doctor now, we've had one and a half episodes, and this was the episode, they spent 15 ish minutes going through what the TARDIS was and describing the rules. And it felt very much like we want this to be approachable to a new generation of people who haven't watched this. So we're kind of spoon feeding them. And I was, like, in my head, trying not to roll my eyes again, I got it. And I was like, oh, God, we've been here before. We've done this.
Because it wasn't like a normal, I think, about when Bill came on or Clara came on.
It wasn't quite so spoon feeding because people had been around it for so long. But this is a clear, definitive. This is where you're beginning again. So this is kind of like with the episode rose 20 years ago, giving you all the answers so that you can jump in. And I was just like, okay, so we're devoting quite a bit of time to this. And I get it, but it was also done in a fun way. So I think that's, like, my one nitpick about the episode. But what's. Maybe something that you really liked and maybe something that you didn't really like for space babies?
[00:32:32] Speaker B: I really. Yeah. Sorry, I. Yeah, I just. As a whole, I really liked the episode. I feel like there was, you know, I think they did like the plot, like, well enough to not be overly, like the babies were fun as, like, characters and the fact they could speak and, like, were controlling the spaceship. And I did. I enjoyed all the reveals. I feel like that really gets you into what Doctor who's about. Look, not everything as it seemed, is as it seems. So, like, with the nanny ended up being like, you know, the woman that's been trapped there for years and you've got the monster that's actually just another one of the kids that the machines made, but it's made out of bogeys.
And then, you know, you've got all the other things like this. Yeah. So I enjoyed that. And then I feel like the only probably thing I didn't really like don't really know. Maybe just. I mean, it's probably because I'm not a kid anymore, but I felt like a couple of the things were a bit too, like, childish in a way, like the whole spaceship floating from farts or whatever it was at the end. I think that was the only. The only thing that tipped me a little bit. But then you do have to remember it is mainly for, like, kids, so they would enjoy that. But, yeah, I think that'd be the only thing for me.
[00:33:48] Speaker A: Don't. Don't remind me. This is a child show that I watch weekly.
[00:33:53] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:33:53] Speaker B: I just have to get that out there because, you know, some people take it far too seriously.
[00:33:57] Speaker C: But, yes, we are all adults, man.
[00:34:02] Speaker A: Hey, listen, if all of my friends with children can watch Bluey when their kids go to sleep, then I can watch doctor who and not feel bad about it.
[00:34:08] Speaker C: Exactly.
Yeah.
[00:34:12] Speaker A: What about for you, Vic? What worked and what didn't?
[00:34:15] Speaker C: Yeah. My biggest issue with this episode and for. With this show for now is in that it feels too much like a reboot, not a continuation for me, because when I was watching the church on Ruby Road and those first two episodes of the season, I felt like. I don't know if it's just me, but I felt a big disconnection from the past seasons in the new who era, and it didn't feel like this show. I know that's. That's weird because we've been all through the.
From Ecclestone to Jody to Tenet again. But it feels very weird for me watching it and, you know, not remembering those pasts, regenerations, their past journeys. And it really feels like shooty is here to, you know, to start this show from the bottom, to bring it back from the bottom and not as a continuation. So, yeah, that's my biggest issue with the show for now. Maybe. Maybe they'll fix it because, you know, just like you said, there's a Donna's daughter coming back and the unit. So maybe they'll, you know, maybe they'll make it something different, maybe feel different.
[00:35:39] Speaker A: And not just that, because I'm correct if I'm wrong, I'm pretty sure Mel is coming back as well. Yes.
[00:35:45] Speaker C: Yeah.
She'll also be in the unit show, I think.
[00:35:50] Speaker A: Yes, I'm pretty sure.
Which is still just hinted at and rumored. It's not officially at, but it is happening, as we know, behind the scenes for the most part. But, yeah, so there are some of these connections, but it does feel kind of disconnected. I think it's interesting because with him beginning at the end of Tenet's second tenure, you feel like there is a very clear, like, they want this to be a fun doctor. They want this to be a young doctor. It is a very queer doctor, even if they don't address it. There's a lot of queerness to him, especially that first episode, the church on Ruby Road.
So there is, like. I do think that it is very segmented, that it's kind of like how they want echo, you know, from Marvel to be like, you can jump into this and you don't need to know anything else. This was it.
[00:36:45] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. You don't need to know anything, but you also need to know who kingpin is. So that involves you going back to watching Daredevil and all of that. So. But yeah, I mean, I can imagine that maybe with David Tennant's Doctor still being around, they might work on something. For audiences that have become accustomed to older Doctor who, maybe they'll have like a few, like, you know, maybe he'll go back into like the past, like his past adventures. And so, you know, there could be something there for like older fans and then you've got shootie with the new fans and then David. So maybe, I don't know, that's just throwing a pitch out.
[00:37:22] Speaker C: It's kind of weird because you can see that they're going all in with Schutti's Doctor and. Yeah, and for example, in Poland we can only legally on Disney watch the shooties era and the free specials and that's it. Doctor who is not legally available in Poland except the BBC channels when they are, you know, airing, re airing the older episodes and that's it.
[00:37:48] Speaker A: Which for all intents and purposes, for the sea, for the cosmic circus, that means that they are not available at all. Just, just say. Just throwing that out there.
[00:37:56] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're not available at all.
[00:38:01] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:38:02] Speaker A: I'm just teasing you.
[00:38:03] Speaker B: I am very lucky in the UK because we do get every single episode, not to throw it out there, but.
[00:38:09] Speaker A: Yeah, because you get it all on.
[00:38:11] Speaker B: Yeah. BBC iPlayer has every single episode, I think, apart from the very first one because obviously there's a bit of contention with the grandson or grandson of the writer of the first episode or something. So everything. But like the very 1st 1963 episode is on there.
[00:38:31] Speaker A: See over here, we have to also get the Britbox to get any of the classic, which is another streaming service that of course I eventually watch it, but like, yeah, you know, so it's cool that you got the. Because it's everything. The whole hooniverse is there for you at your fingertips.
[00:38:50] Speaker C: Yeah. But I think you also have had Doctor who on HBO Max. Yep.
Yeah. And you know, I was able to watch sometimes the other Doctor who seasons when HBO Max was, you know, glitching. And when I was watching other show, it was glitching error and I was able to watch for a few minutes, you know, the american HBO Max library. So that's funny. But I mean, now that we're on shooties, we're talking about shooties doctor. I really hope they drop older seasons, like maybe only the new who era in other countries because I was watching Doctor who with my mom. We started with Ecclestone when it was on BBC, when we were paying for BBC to watch it. And we finished right when I think it was when Matt Smith and Karen Gillan, sorry, doctor. And Amy traveled to visit Vincent Van Gogh. And that's when we stopped. And I, you know, for the sake of my mom, I really want them to drop it and to finish watching it with her because she saw the last Jodie special with me when she regenerated in tenant. And now we started the Starbeast.
Yeah, Starbeest, the second special. So, you know, so I really want to bring her back to the older episodes and, you know, rewatch that. Rewatch them with her because she really loved tenance era. I think for now, tenants is her favorite doctor. She loved the library episode. So, you know, to travel with her to all those doctors, just to watch shooty, you know, life when the episodes are dropping would be amazing. So.
[00:40:41] Speaker A: Okay. You know, I think, though, something going back to what you said about, like, these connections to the deeper lore of Doctor who, we did get that in the devil's court, you know. So in that episode, he mentions having a life and a granddaughter and being not that far away from there. And I thought that was really cool, too, because in my head, as soon as we, um, they were talking about, like, going to see the Beatles, and I was like, wait a second, we've. We have a doctor there.
And so, like, they are kind of sprinkling it in. In like a. Very much like a, like a. We're going again, giving you a little bit of allure, but in a very digestible way. Um, and so I do like that because I think that you're going to get more of that as you go through.
I think there has to be, you know.
[00:41:28] Speaker C: Yeah. I think there were even rumors about Susan coming back.
I think it was before the 60th episode, 60th anniversary episodes aired. There were rumors, yes.
[00:41:43] Speaker A: She was supposed to appear in one of the specials, and that didn't end up shaking out, but, like, this was kind of a reference to that. You know, she's there. She's existing.
[00:41:53] Speaker B: Yeah. Especially with Doctor who. Like, the thing is that if someone gets mentioned or there's a sprinkle of something, you can bet in, you know, maybe by a few years or, like, in a few episodes, something will happen with that.
[00:42:06] Speaker A: So, you know, or a big finish special. Just kidding.
[00:42:09] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:42:10] Speaker C: Yeah. But, you know, they always figure out. They'll always figure a way to bring people back if they want.
[00:42:20] Speaker A: But speaking about the devil's cord, this was a very interesting episode because it does something different than I wasn't expecting. We got introduced to the maestro, and this was kind of a powerful character that maybe is connected to some deeper lore because of the pantheon, but also being the child of the toymaker, there was just a lot of really cool little tidbits of ties to what is going to be this bigger story, obviously, throughout the season. What did we, what did we think of the devil's chord? And, Cam, I'm gonna start with you.
[00:42:57] Speaker B: Yes. I mean, I do want to shout out, absolutely love Jinx monsoon as the maestro. I just thought they were absolutely amazing. Probably one of the best villains that has been in sort of years for hat 100%.
Like, oh, just like I really, like, was shown on the BBC because we get it at midnight, so America can watch it on Disney. So it comes out on BBC at midnight, and then they show it normally. So I've seen it twice in one day, but, yeah, and, yeah, I really loved the episode, loved everything they did with, like, you know, the music disappearing, especially brig tying that into the beatles, but, yeah, and I just, like, really enjoying this, like, new, like, this new set of villains with the pantheon of gods or whatever Russell calls them. I think there was something that he names them, but because obviously, I think he's not touching any of the old Doctor who villains, like, for this first series, so.
At all. So it'll be interesting to see where. Who else shows up. What are the children?
Because there's a lot there.
I think there's more children. Like, Toymaker wasn't a very nice father to any of his children.
Yeah, it's just really juicy. So I do really like that.
[00:44:16] Speaker A: I loved this episode for many reasons. First off, the. The music in the very, like, when Jinx started to play it on the piano and then it went into the title sequence, I about lost my goddamn mind. Like, I was just like, this is so cool. What a cool, like, thing to do and power. Props to Jing san. They were fantastic. As maestro, I have never gotten chills from a villain of Doctor who. Like, I have from her. Like, oh, my God, the. It gave me Missy vibes, but even more evil because Missy was just very chaotic. But. But Maestro was actually, like, there was a cruel and there was a cruelty and there was. There was. There was a meanness and, like, not giving enough fuck about these characters and the people in the world.
[00:45:06] Speaker B: Yeah. And then also that whole scene with the sound dampening and all that was really cool as well, with, like, the tuning fork and then puts it in the water. And, yeah, I really enjoyed that.
[00:45:19] Speaker A: They are definitely taking a little more risks with how they're telling the stories from these episodes, and it's paying off. And I think that that is one of the cool things. Is that the devil's cord?
When Uday went to the premiere in LA, this was the episode they showed. They didn't show space babies. They only showed the devil's court. And I understand why this was such a powerful episode for many different reasons, where the first one was just a cool kind of romp through time and space.
Vic, what did you think of the devil's chord? Please tell me you loved it. Please tell me you loved it.
[00:45:51] Speaker C: Yes, of course.
[00:45:54] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:45:54] Speaker B: I mean, thank you. Thank God.
[00:45:57] Speaker A: That's the only right answer.
[00:45:58] Speaker C: Yeah, of course. I mean, I also lost my mind because, you know, the tradition, you know, of the beatles, one of the greatest bands ever, was the first and only reason why I was waiting for the episode. But when I was watching it, oh, my God, the maestro.
Wow. From the first scene, when they took the power of music and, you know, killed the poor guy, it was just there. And, wow. I felt that the stakes are high at this moment because I already had the vibes that, okay, that someone as almost as powerful, as powerful as the toy mercury, the toymaker, or even more powerful. And throughout the episode, I was like, wow. I was really, really mind blown.
The scene you mentioned with, you know, removing this, removing the sound, like, when this happened, I was like, I wasn't moving. I didn't want to hear any noise around me. I was so focused, and it was so cool. Such a badass scene.
I mean, this episode is so full of, you know, amazing moments, breathtaking moments and interesting moments, because I don't know if it was intent. There was. There were intentions to make it that way, but it was funny, serious, and even scary. Because when you realize that, you know, too many people, the music is one of the many reasons, you know, to get up, get out of the bed in the morning, and live throughout the day, you get the sense that, you know, that even Russell T. Davies knows what people want to see, what's important to people. And he uses it to, you know, to give a good story, especially when, you know, the music. The music wasn't present. So people started killing each other, and there were wars, and, wow, it's another great episode. And I think it's the best so far with shooty, not including the 60th anniversary episode.
[00:48:23] Speaker A: I would argue that this is better, to me, at least, this is better than the 60th anniversary episode just because the scene, especially with the sound cutting off and the tuning fork. I've watched this two nights ago, and then I watched it again last night, and I got chills over my entire body just because of the acting that was going on in that scene.
The intensity, the fear that you saw in Shooty's eyes of just like, this isn't supposed to happen. And then the speech that he had after when he just, like, the by generation made me weak and, like, it was. We don't see the doctor be so vulnerable like that and, like, to be so terrified and so, like, that amped this up for me. Maestro, I hope comes back one day because it would be a travesty to not get jinx Monsoon back in the role because that was crazy.
[00:49:14] Speaker B: I think at the end of the episode, like, in the musical number, you see that little ginger kid from the start, like, open a door. So that could leave a way for jinx to come back, because obviously it's to do. It's like a maestro's child, that little kid or something. So maybe they'll grow up to be the new maestro or something like that. But, you know, hopefully it's a way to sort of get jinx back. And I imagine if there's, like, more of the toymakers sort of children out there, I don't think it'll be the last of jinx. Like, maybe the more. Maybe like an Avengers style thing where they all come to, like, stop the doctor or something.
[00:49:54] Speaker A: I think.
[00:49:56] Speaker C: Go ahead.
[00:49:57] Speaker A: No, Vic. Go ahead.
[00:49:59] Speaker C: Yeah, I just want to mention that I think that they'll introduce themselves in the next episodes and they'll, you know, bring them together as the pantheon. Just like Doctor mentioned. Just like in the episode with Matt Smith. When they were in, they were around the Stonehenge. Yeah, there was a panda Rica and all villains just, you know, just united against the doctors. So I think that that's where we're going. And I really can't wait to, you know, to see the other children, especially when, you know, they are as powerful as toy maker. As toy maker. And they. They all don't believe in the, you know, the fair game rules, so. So I really can't wait to see what's going on. But there's one thing I haven't. I have one issue with these episodes, okay. And it's the, you know, the special effects, the maestro superpowers, you know, when they are using the powers, you know, to. To grab Ruby and Doctor and, you know, rob them, you know, the cords, it didn't look as good as I thought it would, but it was really nice. And the musical battle, it was. Well, it was amazing. I just remembered when I was watching it, I was. I had flashbacks to Doctor Strange, too.
[00:51:21] Speaker B: Yeah, I was. I was thinking the same when I was.
[00:51:24] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.
[00:51:25] Speaker A: It was 100%. How could you not?
[00:51:27] Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
[00:51:30] Speaker A: But I think it's interesting that you mentioned that the effects, because I think I was just impressed of how far we've come.
[00:51:38] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:51:40] Speaker A: Like. Like Whittaker seasons, even. Just like, I was impressed with it. I was like, wow. Compared to what happened in that season, this is great. I'll take it.
I think it's hard, you know, just when you get the Disney money, you got to do it big, which.
[00:51:53] Speaker B: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, visually, like, yeah.
[00:51:58] Speaker C: Doctor who was always more about the practical effects rather than the CGI, but, you know, they have the budget, so at least they spent some of it on it because even the dinosaur scene, it felt like the volume.
And in recent years, the volume is, you know, it was downgraded.
[00:52:20] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:52:21] Speaker C: So much. Yeah. But, hey, it's just the second episode. We have six more ahead of us.
[00:52:27] Speaker A: Right. And I will say this. I think that when you look at some of the things, like the bogeyman still felt very practical.
[00:52:34] Speaker B: Yes, I think it was.
[00:52:35] Speaker C: It was.
[00:52:36] Speaker B: It was like a behind the scenes photo with the mask off, so. But, yeah, but even that felt like.
[00:52:42] Speaker A: A step up of some of the practicals we had in the past where it was just like a man in a mask, you know?
[00:52:46] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:52:48] Speaker A: So I'm excited to see eventually what they do with something like the Cybermen, like, how intense are those gonna look with the Disney budget behind them?
[00:52:57] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, hopefully not too much like Iron man like they did with Peter Capaldi. I feel like that was a bit. Yeah, that was a bit too on the nose. Some of those with the hundred percent reactors. But hopefully they go back to sort of a scarier look for them.
[00:53:14] Speaker C: Yes, 100% the mundane Cyberman. Yeah, I think that's the way to go.
[00:53:22] Speaker A: So, you know, before we run out of time, I do want to kind of get your thoughts about Ruby, you know.
[00:53:29] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:53:29] Speaker A: We talked about how there's a possibility that she's becoming a plot device. There's clearly something that happened with her being given up, and there's definitely this callback to snow that's happened? I think each episode there's been snow of some kind.
What do we think is going on with Ruby Sunday?
Or, like, I don't. Give me your wildest theories. Give me what you think is going to be possible. I want to hear it all. Tell me what's coming for the Doctor and Ruby. And how is. Is she connected to the pantheon of some kind? I just need to know what you guys think.
[00:54:03] Speaker B: I think possibly, I think she might end up being like, I don't know if they've all got, like, obviously, maestro was like, music toy makers like toys. Maybe Ruby will be, like, Christmas or something in, like, a weird way, like that kind of thing. Like, I can imagine because obviously, in the devil's chord, you have maestro being like, oh, what was he doing there when Ruby was born? Or something like that. And then in space babies, he had, like, the alternate scene of when Ruby gets dropped off at the church where the figure, like, points at the doctor, which didn't happen in the Christmas special.
So I think there'll be a lot more to come with, like, finding out who she is.
But, yeah, it'd be very interesting because obviously she's got a lot of happiness and music inside her, so hopefully she doesn't come out of this terribly, sort of like some of the other companions may do at the end of the show, but for sure, yeah, it does.
[00:55:07] Speaker A: Make me wonder, because I know that we've seen some of the things from behind the scenes of the next season, and we see him with the new companion, but Ruby's not always in the picture, and so part of me thinks that, like, in my head, as soon as, you know, I was at the end of the devil's cord, especially the second time, I was like, is the big twist that, like, she doesn't know it, but she ends up being involved with the pantheon, and then she's, like, either kidnapped or taken, and that's why she's not involved so much, but she's still there, and part of the next season is saving her. Yeah.
So I'm kind of excited to see if that's where it goes, because I think there could be some fun if she gets to play both, like, good and evil.
[00:55:45] Speaker B: Yeah, I'd love to see, especially when it did establish that the pantheon can have children, because obviously you've got the maestro's little ginger child. So it'll be interesting to see, like, which of the. If the. If it ends up being that case, which of the pantheon is Ruby's sort of mother, you know, leaves her at the church or whatever.
And why was she left at that? Why was she left at that church? Why on Christmas, you know, all of that stuff, so.
[00:56:13] Speaker A: Absolutely. Vic, what are you thinking?
[00:56:16] Speaker C: Okay, so I don't want to sound crazy, so I'm gonna just start softly.
[00:56:22] Speaker B: So I think, just go all in. Just go all in. Yeah.
[00:56:27] Speaker C: Let's start slowly. But I think that there may be a twin situation, that Ruby has a twin sister or a twin brother. And I don't know why, but every time the toymaker or the maestro mentioned the one who waits, I was thinking about the time itself, because we've already seen them in the flux and they are coming. They will see doctor again. And I think that time either may be one of the children of the toy maker or be the parent of a toymaker. So Ruby may be somehow connected to them. And, you know, we can see that the past is changing and the doctor is noticing it, but we don't know how because, you know, he doesn't remember that the mother of Ruby was pointing at him. So there has to be something far beyond the natural powers that is manipulating the timeline.
And I think that it all comes to the, you know, to the time itself. And Ruby may be connected to it. She may have powers, she may be the secret grandchildren of a toymaker or something. But I mean, Russell T. Davis never disappointed us with the plot twist, so.
[00:57:58] Speaker B: Absolutely. Yeah.
[00:58:00] Speaker C: Yeah. But the crazy one is that she's somehow maybe a daughter of river song. That's what I like to explore in a way.
That's a really crazy one. But, you know, maybe they do look alike, so.
Yeah. Or maybe she's roses.
Who knows?
[00:58:22] Speaker A: Yeah, the possibilities are endless. And all I can say is then we are going to be having a lot of fun over the next six weeks as we discover who Ruby is and where the Doctor goes. And I've heard that the next episode is fantastic. It's written by Steve Moffat.
[00:58:35] Speaker B: I have as well, so.
[00:58:38] Speaker A: And I think he just said, too, that he finally confirmed that he wrote the Christmas special for 2024. So.
[00:58:43] Speaker C: Yes, we are so the upcoming one.
[00:58:46] Speaker A: Yes.
So we are in good hands for some great adventures through time and.
[00:58:51] Speaker C: Honey, I'm home.
[00:58:53] Speaker A: Yes, we're back.
[00:58:55] Speaker B: I mean, as long as they end up. As long as they change the sonic screwdriver. That's the only thing I don't like. Yeah.
[00:59:07] Speaker C: The garage pilot.
[00:59:08] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:59:10] Speaker A: It doesn't need to be that way.
[00:59:12] Speaker B: No, it doesn't need to look like a television remote. But anyway.
[00:59:16] Speaker A: Archie D. Carlos, we have some thoughts.
[00:59:18] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:59:20] Speaker C: Oh, my God, I almost forgot that Moffat is back. Yeah, for me, doctor who ended with Moffat living, but yeah.
[00:59:29] Speaker A: So unfortunately, we are running out of time. But we'd love to continue the conversation with you listeners. So check us
[email protected]. Or you can find us on Twitter and other social medias at my cosmic circus or a cosmic circuits podcast, Twitter at cosmicpodcasts. Thank you so much for tuning in to the cosmic circle. My name is Brian Kitson, and you can find me on Twitter at kitson 301. Vic Cam, thank you so much for joining me. Before we go, though, can you tell the people where they can find you?
[00:59:54] Speaker B: Yes, I'm on Twitter ham and film.
Yeah.
[01:00:00] Speaker A: Thank you so much.
[01:00:01] Speaker C: And you can find me at aridrexalki on Twitter. And, and maybe soon some new doctor who articles will appear on the cosmic circus. So stay tuned.
[01:00:13] Speaker A: We're always looking forward to those. Thank you again, everybody. We can't wait for our next trip through the cosmos.
