Loki Season 2 Finale Discussion

[00:00:17] Speaker A: Welcome to the Cosmic Circle, the official podcast for TheCosmicsarchist.com. I'm Isla Ruby, and this is episode. It doesn't really matter of our little podcast. We've been doing this for centuries. We have an amazing show today chatting about that Loki season two finale. It aired on Thursday, and we're still reeling. I'm joined by three fantastic people, Alex, Drew, and Uday. [00:00:39] Speaker B: Hi, everyone. I'm Alex Perez from the Cosmic Circus. [00:00:44] Speaker C: Hey, guys. [00:00:44] Speaker B: I'm Drew Reed. [00:00:45] Speaker C: I'm also from the Cosmic Circus. [00:00:48] Speaker D: And I'm Uday. And I'm also from the Cosmic Circus. [00:00:52] Speaker A: We are all one happy TVA family. So before we go on, this is your warning. There are going to be heavy spoilers for the Loki finale and definitely the rest of the MCU in this podcast. Listen, at your own risk of being turned into spaghetti. So let's just dive right in. What did you guys think of this episode? So Marvel producer Kevin Wright said it was kind of like two chapters of the same book. Do you agree? Disagree. What are your thoughts? [00:01:20] Speaker B: I agree. Essentially, what they were trying to tell was Loki's new story from beginning to end, and we're going to kind of delve into this more about what exactly they were trying to do with Loki and how they would set him up. But I agree that this felt as it was just like telling two halves of a story. And now that it's both, I think it was a really nice way to end it. [00:01:50] Speaker C: Yeah, I definitely agree with that. I don't want it to end because I think that they've really hit like they've struck gold with Loki and the TVA and just the characters. And I think it's got to be so hard for Marvel to be like, we're not going to do it a season three just because of how perfect the casting is and how perfect the writing. I feel like everything came together really well. But, yeah, ultimately, I think they wrote a really nice ending, and you felt like everything was tied up perfectly, and you can still see that the TVA is still going to go on and do things. It's just obviously, Loki is just in a place right now that he can't really get out of yet. But I feel like Loki is like Marvel's the Matrix. It's like that reality is not what you think it is kind of TV show, and it's just reinvented Marvel. And I really hope that they continue to take all the concepts and the theories that they've introduced and kind of put them into other movies. Because I feel like this is, like, what they should be leaning on for the rest of the multiverse saga. [00:03:00] Speaker D: Yeah, I agree with what Drew said. I feel like the TVA wasn't completely working for me in the first season, but I loved this season and I loved this episode. I think that this finale was probably, like, the best Marvel Disney plus episode. It's definitely the best finale episode. I was shocked that the MCU actually 100% stuck the landing on one of these Disney plus shows because I feel like there was really nothing wrong with it. And I do think that the show could end here. I would also be disappointed if it doesn't continue because I think that it's finally in a really interesting place, but I can also see why they would. [00:03:42] Speaker A: Want to kind of stop think so. I think it was a really solid ending to Loki and to the character of Loki on a broader note. Right. He's gone through tremendous change, and this is, like, a solid place for him to just be done. And it's interesting because sometimes you talk about just not letting characters be know. You keep putting them through stuff and going on and on without having a satisfying ending. That's certainly the case with a lot of series finales. I'm thinking of maybe Buffy and a couple of others, and I think this character just has a really satisfying ending. And if it's the end for Loki, if it's the end for Tom Hiddleston in the MCU, which we're going to talk about, I'm sure that would be, like, emotionally, I feel just resolved, like things are okay, and this is just such a beautiful episode. It was heartbreaking. It was just very well done for all. So, going back a little bit to specifics, did you folks have any favorite moments? Were there things that really stuck out for you in the episode? [00:04:50] Speaker B: WhO wants to go first? [00:04:52] Speaker C: I'm thinking, honestly, I don't know if it was necessarily. It's pretty obvious that the moment where he kind of breaks the loom and all the timelines kind of scatter out and puts everything, that's going to be the moment that everybody kind of remembers, and that's going to be, like, the highlight of the episode. I do think it was the highlight of the episode and the moment that kind of made you realize what was going on here and what the entire season was about. I really liked the final conversation with Loki and Mobius and also Loki and Sylvie. I think that was the moment where I was like, they're really ending the show here. I kind of started to realize that this is probably say, I'd probably say that that was the highlight. [00:05:36] Speaker D: I also really liked his conversation with he who remains, because they're having that conversation, and you expect them to have that kind of conversation after he's tried to stop Sylvie a bunch of times. But then I love when he froze Sylvie and was, oh, like, what makes you think that this is the first time we're having this conversation? I thought that that was a really nice moment too. [00:05:59] Speaker C: Yeah, that was cool. Yeah. I definitely forgot about the conversation between he who remains and Loki. I really liked when he remains came back just because I think the Loki season one finale was one of my favorite phase four moments. I just loved the whole concept of introducing Kang in that way and him kind of just doing a whole lay everything out on the table about what the multiverse is, and I felt like we really needed that, and it was nice to have him come back and do some more of that groundwork, kind of explaining what everything is. And I really like those moments where you get, like, an info dump like that. [00:06:38] Speaker B: For me, overall, the finale was just everything I wanted, but the show, in and of itself, was just everything I needed, because it provided so much more context into what fans are getting at here with the multiverse saga. And I love the way that they're fleshing out everything that has to do with the multiverse and how it works, especially now that Loki is, like, the tree was probably one of the most recognizable moments I knew about Sil a while back, before it aired. And I was literally thinking, all this time, it felt weird, because going into it, it's like I have the perspective of knowing, but I was thinking to myself, literally, they're bringing in a concept that I love about Norse mythology. Aside from Marvel, I'm a literal Norse myth fanboy, so catch me playing God of War and God of War Ragnarok every other weekend. But literally, the story and just the implication that now the multiverse is this massive Igdrasil style tree is the most beautiful perception I think I've ever seen about the multiverse. And I just love the concept. I love the idea, and I loved everything that had to do with. And there's a wonderful article written by a new writer, Jake, on the Cosmic Circus, that talks about that, which is wild, because it has literally become our most viewed article of all time on the Cosmic Circus. So I'm sad because it's like, oh, we're breaking records, and he topped our record. But, yeah, I'm super happy for Jake and the Incredible article that he wrote, and I know that we're going to get more into that. But aside from that, the other part of the show that I love the most, 100% Oroboros OB, favorite casting of all time. Literally just one of the best castings ever done in Marvel. I need more OB in my life, and I know that he will be back, but I need more OB now. [00:08:49] Speaker A: And I want to jump in on that, too, because finally, the AMPTP has made a fair deal for SAG. And so these actors, Kihui Kwan, can talk about what it was like being OB and get hyped for it just in time for the finale, which is kind of nice because they didn't have that, and they kind of had to watch that silently. So that was fun on a personal level to. So I diverge from you guys a little bit in favorite moments because there was so much beautiful stuff, but I really, really loved the sequence. Know, Loki is going back in time to try and learn the centuries worth of knowledge that Obi has. Right. It's set to this disco version of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony, which the symphony itself is known as a symphony of. Right. It's. It's, like, so aligned with time and Destiny and all that. And I think that's really beautiful. And I think Natalie Holt just did an amazing job of pairing that with Loki, having to go back and say again, again, and let's take this again. And I just thought that was very well done and really a fun bit of television. [00:10:01] Speaker B: I'm going to give you a little bit of an insight about that scene and the song that was used, because I saw it, and all I could do was burst out laughing because I don't know if any of you have seen Family Guy, but they used that exact same song in a very old episode, which, yes, when Peter. And the song itself, I have it called because I literally listened to the song. The song was called a fifth of Beethoven by Walter Murphy, and it was used in a disco scene in Family Guy, which is how I knew about the song. And I was tempted to tease. Hold on. I'm sorry, I have to accept this. I'll be right back. [00:10:53] Speaker A: No problem. And we can pause. And we're back. And we were just talking about the Family Guy episode that this was a tease from, and I think I just looked it up in our little pause, and it was hell comes to. [00:11:06] Speaker B: Yeah, it was. [00:11:08] Speaker A: I can't pronounce it. The New England names are. [00:11:11] Speaker B: Yeah, but it was just that. It was just them. I remember the scene. It was them at a disco club, like a rollerblading place. And the song's playing and they're all dancing, and then all of a sudden just turns to hell. Yeah, they all skate to it, and it just goes to hell and they kill everyone. I was like, oh, my God, what the hell? But, yeah, all I could do is just laugh because that's all I could remember from that moment. I was like, damn. [00:11:37] Speaker A: And it's funny you said it was really old, because I guess it is. But apparently this aired in 2006. [00:11:46] Speaker B: It was a while back. [00:11:48] Speaker C: I kind of wish that we got more insight into centuries because it comes on screen and it says centuries later, but I kind of wish that we felt it more because I made a tweet about it on Twitter and Alex, quote, tweeted it and explained a little bit more. But I was like, was it a joke that he did it for centuries later? Because they kind of were like, Ob was like, it took me centuries. And then it comes on screen, it says centuries later, and it's like, was that meant to be a joke? Or was it like, does he really spend centuries. [00:12:20] Speaker A: Centuries. [00:12:21] Speaker B: He spent centuries doing it. And I kind of want to explain what it was because I don't know if we want to dive into more of what we're doing with the script because I want to explain everything that Loki went to into this final season and literally just how. And it's coming out in an article soon that I'm writing, but it's literally how he who remains got what he wanted with Loki. And that's literally all of this when he's going centuries live literally at this point. Loki has lived over pretty much a millennia, because he's done centuries of doing the physics thing right. He's lived for centuries in time slipping. Then you account for the fact that he's lived literally over a thousand years reliving the hell of still be going, if you want to stop me, you're going to have to kill me. He's been doing that for nearly 1000 years. He's been doing this over and over. And he got to the point where he understands he who remains, because he who remains has been doing this for even longer than that. He's been at this place for an infinite amount of time and doing this. He was looking for the Loki that could understand him and live that moment. That's why it says, you're my favorite. Because he got what he wanted. He got someone that could understand what he who remains is going through and living this incredible amount of time and being like, nothing matters I'm indifferent. Because you even see it at that moment when Loki at first, is very emotional with the, oh, if you want to stop me, you're going to have to kill me. He goes very emotional, and as the scene goes on over and over, he just doesn't care. And he just goes like, why aren't you doing something? Fight back. He doesn't care. And that's insane to me because it's the layers behind the scene and the implication that he's literally been doing this for thousands of years and that's why he does what he does. [00:14:32] Speaker A: It gets to their core motivations, too. [00:14:34] Speaker B: Right? [00:14:34] Speaker A: He who remains has been, like you said, doing it for forever. But at one point, he who remains was he. I don't know if we'd call Loki idealistic, but what was the original he who remains? What was he before he developed this apathy over thousands of years, after going through this, in some ways, Groundhog Day situation, what did he start out as? And I think that's an interesting question, and I don't know that we'll ever get an answer going forward, especially given. [00:15:03] Speaker B: We will or, you know, both. It's the curse of being the one who remains and who knows? But no, but we will see. Because Nathaniel Richard's story is he always starts out the same, I think the only version of him that's different, and it's not even that, so much different, is Victor. Timely. But they're all individuals who are extremely smart, extremely egotistical, extremely narcissistic about themselves. And he said it himself at the end of season one where he's, like, talking about, oh, there was self congratulatory narcissism or something like that. And they were just, like, talking about each other, oh, they're great and whatnot. And then each one wanted to take each other's resources and realized that there was the potential to like, oh, I can take this world for myself. And that's where. Because they all think, each one thinks that they're all the right one, or they're the prime one. And their narcissism and egotism is kind of like what made them who they are and why the multiversal war breaks out. And then you have he who remains, like, oh, I came across Eliath and I beat them all. I'm the prime one. And then who isn't even, which we're going to get into it, but it's not even him. He takes credit for someone else's work, which we'll get into that in a minute. [00:16:35] Speaker A: But it's an interesting thing too, though, because Richards hasn't the thing that changes Loki. [00:16:43] Speaker B: Right. [00:16:43] Speaker A: The thing that causes him to go off of this narcissistic and opportunistic bent. Because when we see him, he's still the Loki that at the beginning of season one, he's still the Loki that grabbed the tesseract, he's still opportunistic, he's still in it from know, but we see him and he's changed by his know. He's undergone this great transformation. And Richards doesn't, in any of the iterations, doesn't ever seem to have that opportunity or doesn't seem to face that. Any last thoughts on that sequence or the differences between Loki and me? Loki and he who remains? [00:17:20] Speaker C: Not really. What I was curious about. We kind of talked about it a little earlier with the centuries. Thing is, from seeing that he who remains spends in infinity. And obviously Loki and Obi have spent centuries. I guess they never really said outright that time doesn't pass through someone when you're outside of time. That goes back to endgame, where they're making the time machine, where instead know with Scott, where time passes through him and he doesn't pass through time. And I guess that's kind of the concept that's going on in the TVA where when you're outside of time, time doesn't pass through you. So you can be thousands of years old and look the same age. Is that true? [00:18:10] Speaker B: I'm sorry, so what you're saying is being at the TVA doesn't age you, but he's lived for that long. [00:18:21] Speaker A: It's like a canon reason for why they don't look. [00:18:25] Speaker C: Yeah. So what I was thinking was that being outside of time at the TVA means that time doesn't pass through you. [00:18:34] Speaker B: Being in the TVA doesn't age you, because it's part of, like, they're in stasis. Technically, they exist outside of time. And the flow of time, it doesn't really affect them there. And technically, the TVA is still dampened and there's nothing going on. But when the temporal loom was kind of going awire and raw time was literally busting through TVA, that's kind of like where everything was starting to go a little bit off course. But not only that, and the flow of time was going inside the TVA, but it was still being dampened enough for it to be linear. That's why one of the things people were saying like, oh, but how can know change the rules if the past is in the present. And apparently people were confusing about the fact that the flow of time presented in Endgame doesn't correlate to what's going on within TVA. And people need to understand that within the TVA, it's different, because the flow of time is natural there. But with raw time hitting the TVA and the TVA kind of, like, melting down, it all still remains linear. That's still remaining linear. And that's kind of what's happening now with how Loki was able to go back and forth, because he wasn't really traveling to another multiverse. He was going into his own personal time stream and just, like, going back and doing it over and over and over. And a lot of the concepts was just like him. A lot of time. When you do the centuries after, like, I want to say it was a combination of Loki understanding the physics of what Obi does, but at the same time, it was him reliving every possible scenario. With Victor timely going out into the array and trying to fix it, that's literally what he spent centuries doing. So inside, he's old, and his mind is old, and he's lived for centuries and for thousands of years and whatnot, but in body, he's still pretty much the same age. [00:20:53] Speaker C: Yeah, I think I just wish that that point was got, like, they got that point across a little more because, I don't know, I guess you want to see that visually and to say, centuries later, I think in that moment, you don't really grasp the concept of, like, he spent hundreds of years doing this, and he's hundreds of years old, but he looks the same. I guess the sacrifice that he makes and the wisdom that he has in that moment, I guess, maybe gets that point across. [00:21:23] Speaker E: No, I agree. I think that the passage of time could have been Explained better because it was like a joke when the thing came up on screen that OB was like, oh, that's crazy. It would take centuries, and then they're like, oh, haha, centuries later. It honestly felt like something out of, like, in a good way, not in a bad way, but where they're like, whatever. Like a million days later on. But, yeah, I agree. You feel his weariness when he's speaking to he who remains and when he's weaving the timelines together. But I honestly feel like it's a wider MCU problem where I feel like lately, the passage of time in movies and TV shows is just not well done at all. And I do think that the centuries later thing is part of that, because I definitely do not get the vibe from the TV show that he spent nearly 1000 years trying to stop Sylvie. I felt like he spent maybe, like, ten years trying to stop Sylvie before having those conversations with he who remains. I can believe that it took him centuries to get to the physics thing. But I can't believe that man would spend 1000 years reliving that exact same moment with Sylvie. And I don't think the episode shows anything to support it being that long. [00:22:40] Speaker A: I told you. [00:22:40] Speaker B: Actually, though, it does, though. I have to find the exact moment. But I believe he who remains is the one that says it. I need to find the transcript for it, but I don't know if here it is. Okay. I don't know if here it is. Skipping ahead. Let me see. It should be right around here. Opie. Yeah, I'm, like, reading the transcript because I know he who remains said it. All right. It says it right here when he's talking to, like. Well, it says a thousand more times, but it says right here when he says, reincarnation, baby, we die with the dying, we're born with the dead. Okay, so this is a lot for you. I get it. So why don't you go through this a couple more thousand times, right? Get your bearings, and then you just let me know. So that's kind of like he's done this for a while. That's kind of like the point. [00:23:35] Speaker A: I think the larger point, though. I totally agree with Uday and Drew here, though. I think that passage of time, if you miss that little line in the dialogue, I think that you miss a lot of context. And you can argue whether or not that's, like, a throwaway line. Whether or not that's not actually, literally millennia, or actually, it's just. Or it is millennia. But I think when they're showing the passage of time with the physics, I think that's so much clearer. And I think you can see Loki getting more and more harried and more and more and shorter in the instructions he's giving to folks. And just trying to get this done. Even though it's been centuries, you can see him becoming almost more frantic till he's at the moment where it works. And I don't get the same sense of franticness where he's trying to stop Sylvie. [00:24:24] Speaker E: Yeah, I agree. And also, I remember that line about a couple thousand more times. And I was like, oh, crap, you're going to be doing this for a lot longer. But I didn't take that to mean a couple thousand more years, because. No, it's like a 1 hour moment that he's reliving with Sylvie. So I feel like it would still be a couple hundred years. But then, to me, it's also the fact that that's when Loki leaves. He doesn't do it a couple thousand more times. So I took it to mean that he's done it a couple of hundred times. And so he spent maybe a couple of decades of his life trying to stop Sylvie at this point. And then when he talks to he who remains, and he who remains is like, oh, now it's going to take 500 years. And that's when Loki dips out and tries to find another solution. [00:25:13] Speaker A: It's part of him having. [00:25:17] Speaker B: That's the moment. It's the skipping ahead part, because you don't see it. And I agree that you don't see it. And if you don't see it, you think to yourself, oh, that's. But the thing is, in real time, without the skipping ahead, right? You have Loki reliving the Sylvie thing over and over and over. And he does it a couple of hundred times. You can say, that's like a couple of decades, right? And then he has at one moment, that's when he starts getting bored and tells he who remains, like, are you going to interrupt for something? [00:25:51] Speaker A: Starting to have an epiphany. Right? It's part of the moment where he realizes that he can't. It's like starting that action. [00:26:01] Speaker B: Yeah. And then he has that moment. He has that conversation. Then he who remains tells him to do it a thousand more times. Right? And then at that moment, that's when he says. He pauses Sylvie. And says, and what makes you think this is the first time we've had this? And, like, it's implied there when he says, how many times you think we've had this conversation, that he's done this again, you don't see it. But that moment where he says in between, do it a thousand more times. And then he says, what makes you think this is the first time we've had this conversation? He spends a couple of more times doing that same thing, like of trying to stop Sylvie. But at some point, he learns how to pause time, and that takes a while without the use of the temp path that he who remains has, because he's not using a tempad. Loki is literally pausing time at his own volition, with his own power. And that's the moment we're like, oh, shit. He finally paused time. What makes you think we had this conversation? And that's the moment where he who remains is like, finally, I found the one. [00:27:08] Speaker A: It's the perks of being a god. [00:27:10] Speaker B: Yeah, the perks of being a god. But he's literally been doing this for a while. And I agree that sometimes you need to be shown that in order to understand it. But, yeah, he who remains, Loki, has been at this for a while. It's probably been a couple of centuries more at most, maybe not a thousand years again. But the implication is that he's been doing this for a while. He's been looping at it over and over and over and over, and every time that he thinks he found a way, he has to loop it again and again and again and again until that moment where he says, and what makes you think we've had this conversation before? And that's where the loop breaks, because he finally does something different, too. [00:27:51] Speaker A: From a practical television making perspective, you have a finite amount of time that you have for minutes on the screen, so it can be hard to figure out what you're going to use your real estate for how you're going to show, especially when you're considering such a long time period. And I think it's like a tricky balance to figure out how you're going to show that and what you're going to leave up to people to discuss in podcasts and argue about what. [00:28:21] Speaker E: I thought that on that topic. [00:28:23] Speaker C: Go ahead. [00:28:25] Speaker E: Sorry, I was just going to say, isn't this the longest Disney plus episode, or at least Marvel Disney plus episode? And I think it is because it was, like 58 minutes, including credits, but I was really glad that the episode was so long. I think it definitely helped let things breathe. Like, if it was shorter, it definitely would have felt rushed. Like, I think a lot of the other Marvel Disney plus finales do. But also, maybe Disney plus just needs to reframe their whole minutes on screen strategy, because in general, I think a lot of the episodes are arguably too short across these TV shows. And then you look over at Amazon prime, which is giving you hour and 15 minutes episodes for Lord of the Rings, and you're like, this episode could have even been, like, two minutes longer to help you get some more of that feeling that centuries have passed when he's talking to he who remains, because that is a great point that it would have taken Loki so long to learn how to pause time. And that definitely is something that I feel like was a little bit glossed over, the fact that centuries probably passed between that conversation and Loki learning how to pause. Yeah, I just. I think in General Disney plus episodes should be more like the Loki finale length, instead of us being so pleased that the finale was, like, the longest episode. [00:29:44] Speaker A: I think as we see Disney move more into the standard ad model, which know commercials before, we're going to see more, maybe longer episodes, because that's just what it happens with commercials, and not just the inclusion of commercials, but because the story is built that way. The story is built to support these act breaks with commercials. Sorry, Drew, I think you were saying something. [00:30:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:30:11] Speaker C: So the angle that I thought they were going for or what I thought that they were going to do was have Loki. Like, I'm trying to think of how to word this, because I know that they said that he who remains created the TVA. I thought that they were going to have Loki go back to the beginning of time and pave the way for he who remains to create the TVA, which would have been really kind of mind boggling, because he remains says that he was the one who paved the way for Loki. But I thought that now that Loki could time slip, he could time slip back to. I thought that he was going to write the entire story, essentially. [00:30:49] Speaker B: I thought that he was going to. [00:30:50] Speaker C: Be the one who. I don't know how to explain it in a way that it makes sense. I thought he was going to be the one who actually brought Mobius to the TVA to begin with, and the same with B 15 and Casey. I thought that he was going to be, like, the one who created everything originally, but obviously it didn't go that way. I just thought that now that he had discovered how to time slip outside of time, he's able to rewrite everything. But then I realized that he who remains can do the same thing. So I don't know if it necessarily would have made a lot of sense. [00:31:24] Speaker A: And this is a little bit off of our plans, but do you feel like the he who remains being able to time slip, is that almost a cop out? Is that, like, someone waking up and it's all a dream, if they've had this power all along and it wasn't necessarily seen? [00:31:38] Speaker C: Well, I don't know if he can time slip. I mean, Alex might be able to explain a little bit more, but he has that watch that lets him control time outside of time. So I guess that's like, his own way of time slipping, where he can kind of move himself through time, he can move others through time. I mean, we saw that he could take Sylvie out of the equation in that scene where he can remove her from the actual room by moving her through time. So, yeah, I'm not really sure. I don't think that he necessarily time slips. I think he maybe just has a device that can control time slipping, maybe. [00:32:10] Speaker B: Yeah. His tempad really allows him to do more than what most of the TVAs can. He has the ability to time slip, and he has the ability to control time or pause it or reverse it or do whatever, honestly. So he who remains has that power, but Loki is the one who can do it. That. That's pretty much the gist of he who remains. He who remains, and I'm going to explain this later on in an article, but he who remains created the sacred timeline in order to stop the multiversal war. But the main point of him, Nathaniel Richards overall, has been to control the multiverse, the problem, and harness the entirety of the multiverse so that they can essentially, if they need something, and I think Wanda explained it best. If you control the multiverse, you have an answer for everything. If it's not in one universe, it's going to be in another universe. Like a cure for a disease, an answer for something. Anything can be found within the multiverse because there's an infinite possibilities where anything and everything works. The thing is, Nathaniel Richards at the time, and it's always something, it was explained best with Victor Timely. Right in season two. Victor timely was a genius because he had the book. He had Oroboros's book, but he was out of time, because in his location at the time he was set in, in 1893, he did not have the capability to bring his ideas to life. He didn't have the technological capabilities in order to do what he wanted to do, which was the prototype to the time chair, the loom, all of that. But Nathaniel Richards, who becomes he who remains later on, does have that capability. All the kings from later on, I believe it's like the 31st century or something. I don't remember when exactly. Kang, what moment? Like Loki, season one. I'm kind of, like, wanking at that date. [00:34:24] Speaker C: But the Loki, it was the 31st. [00:34:27] Speaker B: 31St century. So in the 31st century later on, they have the ability to bring those ideas to life, and that's when the multiverse starts contacting each other. But the thing was, every single Nathaniel Richards interacting with each other across time was causing incursions, and it was causing the death of the multiverse. And that was kind of the one thing that none of them wanted, because they wanted control of the entire multiverse, not just a portion of it. Because if you keep losing Earths and you keep losing timelines. At what point do you have. At what point do you kind of like, okay, so my main goal failed to control the entirety of the multiverse, and that's kind of what Nathaniel Richards wants, and that's kind of like anyone that involves themselves with multiverse wants. The main goal of Kang Kang prime and every other Kang variant out there is. They want the entire multiverse to be controlled. They want to control the entire multiverse and have access to everything, but they can't do that if incursions keep happening. Every single one of them doing a multiversal war. Incursions happen. Universes die, and they couldn't find the answer to do it. So that's when he who remains comes in, literally wipes everyone out, using Elias and the help of Renslayer, and creates the sacred timeline to kind of pause and find the answer that he was looking for. That's why you never really see the end of the sacred timeline, because he who remains just keeps writing everything back and forth to try to find the one person that could do what he wanted, which is to create a multiverse or a version of it, where everything could be controlled and nothing would be know a version of the multiverse where you could access everything without destroying it. And that's why you have Loki as a character. That's why the show existed. Literally. He who remains wanted Loki because he's been doing this for an infinite amount of time. What Loki has been living through, like, trying to find the answer to fix the loom. He who remains has been doing that for even longer, but not for the loom. He's been trying to find someone who can replace him at the end of time to access the entirety of the multiverse. And that's why you see so many Loki variants in the void. That's why it's always just searching, because he remains. The goal has been to search for Loki, and he's been looking for all this time, and that's why they brought in Sylvie. That's why Sylvie was taken away from her timeline, and we never really get to see that explained, but she was taken from that timeline because she was one of the few people that was able to control Elias. And the final two contenders in he who remains. Mine was Sylvie and Loki. And the problem with Sylvie was Sylvie was so angry with he who remains that she wasn't the one. She could have been the one to have controlled the multiverse and done everything. But Sylvie was so angry and was so uninterested with the concept of the multiverse and saving everyone because she in herself. Sorry for the Sylvie fans that are going to be listening to this. She in herself was selfish. She wanted to live her own life, and she didn't want anything to do with having to deal with the multiverse. She didn't care about Kang. She just wants to live her life. Meanwhile, Loki, on the other hand, he wants to save his friends. He wants to save everyone who wants to live that life. But he realizes that in order for that to happen, he has to sacrifice himself. And it was at that moment, he who remains has been paving the road, not just for the Infinity saga, but pretty much for Loki in general. He's been training Loki from a distance, right? Making him live through all of the events of Loki season one and all of the events of Loki season two, so he could finally get the variant that he wants, that has the ability to manipulate time to create the perfect multiverse in which nothing can be destroyed. It just keeps rebuilding itself because of Loki being in the middle of it all. And that moment when Loki pauses time and he who remains is, like, looking at him with a little bit of shock, but then smiles afterwards, and he says, that's why you're my favorite, is because he finally got what he wanted. He got the power source that was able to create a multiverse that will never be destroyed, can never be altered, and can finally be manipulated and controlled entirely. So now this is the part of the show where the multiverse style is going to come into effect, and you're going to see a lot more. Originally, you were supposed to see a lot more kangarines. Now, I don't know if that's going to happen because of the major situation, and Marvel kind of like, dealing with trying to deal with that right now, but the Loki ending kind of just sets everything up in a way. It sets Marvel up in a way that they can either continue with the Kang story or they can just completely diverge from it and leave it to someone to. [00:39:37] Speaker A: So I wanted to jump back a moment to talk about replacing. About he who remains was looking for someone to replace him. But even before we talk about that, why don't we just jump into the Jonathan major situation? I think that is actually a really good transition. So there's a line in the finale of Loki season two, and it's like a throwaway line, and it's at the end at the TVA where they're talking about the Kang variants, and they say that one was causing a ruckus on an adjacent. I don't remember the exact wording, but, like, something related. Go ahead. [00:40:20] Speaker B: The six one six adjacent realm, or. [00:40:23] Speaker A: Six one six adjacent realm, which seems to be linking it pretty directly to Quantum mania. Do you think that's a way that Marvel can shift to a different villain or shift away from all of that? [00:40:38] Speaker C: I don't think so. They've kind of set up the. Obviously, they could shift to a different villain. They could find a way, but I think the ending kind of sets up them. Monitoring the Kang variants, they were like, does any he who remain variants know who we are yet? And they said, not yet. So they're monitoring them, and I kind of feel like they're heading towards Team Kang VarianTs versus Team TVA. That's where they could be heading. It's not guaranteed. I'm sure, with the TVA's involvement in Deadpool Three, we'll probably find out more on what the status of the TVA is, but I would like for them to continue with Kang. I like Kang the Conqueror. I just think he's cool. I like him as a villain. I don't really think the MCU is ready for Dr. Doom yet. [00:41:39] Speaker B: They won't. The idea with Doom, that in and of itself, Doom, I know what plans they have for Victor. There are already plans for Victor, but it's not here. They don't want Doom in and of itself, is a villain, sort of like thanos and sort of like Kang. It's such a big villain in terms of how they want to do it. They want to do it right, which is why he's not even remotely close to the plans that they have for the multiverse saga. I can't even talk about it because this is not even the main point of discussion. But Doom has plans, just not here. It's too early. It doesn't make sense. It doesn't apply. There are going to be setups to Doom later on, but it's not here. There is no space for it. And going back to what you were saying about the Jonathan major situation and kind of like how they wrote the adjacent realm thing, right now, they're monitoring the situation. The Kangs don't know about the TVA yet. And the reason why they're just monitoring, and they say, like, oh, this one kind of went out of their way and kind of, like, got wild. But the heroes handle it. They were talking about Quantum mania just to clear up the air because a lot of people were apparently confused and were like, but that's like something else. It's like, no, the adjacent Realm is the quantum realm thing is that the adjacent realm is apparently the official term for it. Quantum Realm is what Hank Penn calls it, but it's apparently called the adjacent Realm. Yeah, I don't know why they call it adjacent Realm, but that's their, I. [00:43:32] Speaker E: Thought they were just saying that it's like a realm adjacent to 6116 because there's also, like, the dark dimension and everything. Right. I guess that's the distinction between dimension and multiverse, isn't it? [00:43:43] Speaker A: It's not a separate universe. It's still like, yeah, it's not a separate universe. [00:43:49] Speaker E: Same timeline. [00:43:53] Speaker B: But the adjacent realm is the Quantum realm. And what they were referring to is the events of Quantum mania. Now, here's the thing. They are monitoring everything, but for the next while, it's going to be quiet in terms of monitoring the Kang variants, because there's not going to be anything. All of the Kang variants are not on the multiverse. They're not located across multiverse at all. They're all still at the Council of Kangs in limbo. I think that's what it's called. They're all still there. And the purpose of that meeting in and of itself is it can go two different ways. Right? Because right now, they're all either planning their way to set up their own dynasty. Like, oh, we're going to take control of the multiverse, and we're all going to team up. But the thing is, the way history has played out, that's not what's going to happen. Because the Council of Kangs, both in the comics and literally in the setup, they've all tried to kill each other. And the fact that they're all in the stadium, all getting ready, like when every single variant of majors just pops up and whatever, I keep seeing that, and I keep thinking to myself, they're all about to kill each other off screen. And by the time that we reach Kang Dynasty, there's going to be, like, maybe two or three variants that we're just going to have to worry about, and all the thousands and infinite versions of Kang that we saw at that Council of Kang Stadium or whatever, all just going to be dead. And I'm thinking to myself, like, right, so this is kind of like what they're going for, all right, but the TVA is not going to see Kang for a while, and they're going to be monitoring the situation, and it's going to be all quiet for them, but it's because they're not in the multiverse anywhere. They're all just literally chilling at the Council of Kang's doing God knows what, but we're going to find out eventually. But I don't think they're going to address. They're going to tease it. They're going to tease it in the. [00:46:04] Speaker A: Council of Kangs might be something that the TVA or some other organization might take note of given their motivations and might be monitoring. And it's sort of an interesting thing to think about and also, especially with invincible coming out. I just keep thinking about the Council of Kangs and the parallels to Aangstrom Levy, and know, not to be spoilery for Invincible, but I think it's like the first episode, just the parallels to. [00:46:36] Speaker B: Ex. Yeah, go ahead. [00:46:39] Speaker E: Yeah, I was just going to say I agree. I don't think the TVA has heard of any other ruckuses from King variants because they're all out of time and the TVA is only monitoring the timeline. And, I mean, maybe they're not doing a good job of monitoring the timeline because you should notice when thousands of Kang variants suddenly disappear from their timeline. Right. But I can totally see that that's why no other Kang has caused an issue yet, because they're all gloating about the Conqueror's demise. Right. I don't think that that scene is, like, a way for mean. Well, I think it is a way for Marvel to pivot away from Jonathan Majors if they wanted to. I find the whole conversation to be kind of ridiculous. I'm like, don't recast, or, sorry, not don't recast Kang. I mean, recast Kang. Don't throw the character away, because you're in too deep at this point. And I don't really see why everyone's saying, oh, no more Kang after that finale. But I do agree that it's kind of problematic that Kang keeps losing because he who remains is so scary. Oh, he thought he backed Loki into a corner, but then Loki one ups him. And then the fact that the end of this finale says that out of the infinite multiverse, only one Kang has caused an issue and that Kang was defeated by the Ant man family. So are they even a threat? Like, at this point, I do feel like it's getting diluted. And personally, I did not like Victor timely at all. So I went from being really excited about King. Even in Quantumania, I still liked him, but now I'm kind of okay. Like, can you do something? [00:48:25] Speaker B: That's the thing. I'm sorry. I'm literally just going to interrupt because this is the part of the conversation that's like, Mobius said it best. Mobius said it best. You have to see the bigger picture. Right. The point of Kang, and he's always done this in the comics. Kang loses all the. They're doing. They're doing kind of like that effect. The same thing with the marvels in which they're lowering your expectations so that when it comes, you're just going to be shocked. They're pulling, like, a mega mind situation where they're like, oh, he just loses every time. But then he finally wins, and you're like, oh, shit, it happened. Right? And that's sort of like what they're setting up the Kang situation to be. Kang keeps losing over and over and over, but by the time he becomes an actual threat, it's like, oh, shit. It becomes an oh, shit moment. And the scary thing about Kang is not the fact that he fights, right? It's his mind. That's sort of like, what makes Kang such a scary villain to begin with. It's his intellect. It's the way that he's able to see everything, and he's able to calculate for any version of possibility. And the only one that's ever been able to do that so far, because of the amount of time that he spent, is he who remains, and he will be back. But it's not going to be the same variant, because the variant that we're going to get now isn't the same one that's at the end of the Citadel. At the end of time, we're going to get to see the he who remains that existed before the TVA, before creating the citadel, before all of that, which is essentially just going to be another version of Nathaniel Richards. But I don't know exactly how it'll fit into it because that version of Kang doesn't really vibe with the council. He doesn't go for what these people want. So at the end of the day, I don't know what role the new he who remains is going to play if and when he comes. Yeah, thaT's sort of, like one thing that I just want people to keep in mind. It's like Kang is going to lose a lot, so that the moment that he wins, it takes you by surprise. [00:50:55] Speaker A: The two notes on that again. Go ahead, two notes on that. So Marvel has know to Uday's point about recasting him, and I think Marvel has shown their willingness to do that. So I think that's definitely an know if the major situation plays out, how it certainly seems like it's going to play out. And then second, we say that Kang keeps losing, so it'll be a surprise. From a storytelling perspective, that's sort of interesting, but also, it kind of nerfs him. He's not really a scary villain, and I feel like with the other big bads from Marvel, like Thanos, you saw why he was a scary villain, and with Kang, it's a whole lot of telling instead of showing, like we're told, okay, Kang is this big. You know, all the variants are bad, bad, bad, but he just keeps. Don't know. I don't know if I like that as far as. And just, again, personal opinion, if I like just storytelling, if that makes sense, an audience expectation. [00:51:56] Speaker E: Yeah. I also think that at a certain point, you're going to lose your audience because it is really interesting that, yeah, I do like that perspective that King loses, but it's like whack a mole because there's an infinite number of them. You're always going to have another one, and maybe then the 10th one will be more capable and he'll win, and that's cool. But when you have something as sloppy and messy as the multiverse saga with no connection between the projects except for Kang, and then Kang is becoming diluted with all of these different variants. [00:52:28] Speaker C: That. [00:52:29] Speaker E: Like you said, are just telling and not showing, then at some point, it's like your franchise is just going to collapse on itself. And I feel like we're already seeing that kind of happen where people are ready to move on from Kang, and we're only on the third variant, and there's people saying, cancel Kang Dynasty, which I think is like a ridiculous thing. And I don't know. I feel like that's kind of a dangerous game to play because at this point in November of 2023, it looks like there's a real possibility that the King storyline won't even finish playing out if there's discussion at Marvel Studios about moving away from the character, because personally, I think the only scary King villain so far was he who remains. And to me, he who remains is still the best. The Conqueror was interesting, but again, it was all tell no show. And I thought that by the end of it, he was like a pretty generic villain because all he did was blast some blue energy at people. And then again with Don't. I don't think I really get Victor timely. I didn't like him, and honestly, I feel like I didn't need to see. [00:53:35] Speaker B: Him in this season. [00:53:37] Speaker A: I think with Thanos, there was such a bigger buildup, and we saw why he was so scary and why he had the potential to really change everything. Like, we saw him collecting the stones. We saw him, what he was willing to do for just, you know, as a villain. That's a pretty clear motivation. That's also pretty gnarly. [00:54:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:54:01] Speaker C: So here's what I would have done differently. The thing about Thanos and why Thanos was so scary is because he had other people doing his work for him for so many years, like armies, Loki, and. [00:54:17] Speaker A: And he had accolades almost. [00:54:19] Speaker C: He has these big armies, and I feel like that's how they should have. So I've said it a couple of times. I don't know if I've said on Twitter, but I feel like MODOK should have been Kang's role in Quantum Mania. MOdoc should have been the one who was controlling the Quantum realm, and it should have been revealed at the end of the film that he was actually a herald or a lieutenant for Kang, and he was working for Kang. And I feel like that would have set up, like, you didn't have to make Kang the Conqueror, the main villain of Quantum Mania. You could have gone other ways to set him up in a way that shows, that reveals him in a bigger way, essentially. And I feel like that's the problem, is there. [00:55:00] Speaker B: I'm not going to lie, literally, listening to you right now. I think this is the first time I've ever heard that suggestion, and I think that is probably one of the smartest ideas I've ever heard. [00:55:12] Speaker E: Yeah, that sounds like a great idea. [00:55:14] Speaker B: Like that more. [00:55:15] Speaker C: I just think it would have made more sense. I think it would have worked better with the plot of Quantum Mania because they have a previous relationship with Darren. It would have given them more of a personal conflict. It just feels like there was a disconnect between Kang and Scott because they don't know each other, and you pit them together without any kind of just. That's what didn't work about the movie, and I think that's what didn't work for people was obviously, they defeat Kang pretty easily with ants. And, I mean, there's a good, logical explanation for it, but no matter how logical the explanation is, it just doesn't work for audiences. And I just feel like the way that I explain it is the way that I would have liked to see it. And I feel like that's how they need to go about Kang, is you don't pull the curtains back on somebody right away. And that's what worked so great about Thanos, is it took so long to reach that moment, and he was powerful in that moment where he was revealed. [00:56:14] Speaker E: But also, I feel like there's a couple different routes you could have gone with. So, like, I really like that ModoK idea, but it's like, if they didn't want to do Thanos again, if they didn't want other people doing his dirty work, it's like, King can still be the main villain, but I think there's, like, the argument of, obviously, he has nothing to do with Scott, so it's just weird in an ant man movie, but it's like, did it have to be the conqueror that was doing all that? Or could it have been another variant of him, which I think then would have been okay for him to get defeated by ants? Or then there's the thing of, did he need to get defeated by ants? Why couldn't he have been. Again, I feel like there's stronger writing there where it's like, the ant family could have struggled to defeat him a little bit more, and then maybe it's a little bit more of his personal ego or something taking him down and not a swarm of ants and then getting blasted in the face by just. I think there's a couple different things that would have gone a longer way to strengthening Kang's foundation instead of weakening it, which I feel like is what Quantumania did, because imagine what it would have been like. Sorry. Imagine what it would have been like if they defeated the Conqueror. And then you get to the Council of Kangs, and there's another conqueror, and it's like the guy in Quantum mania was maybe just, like, a little wannabe playing dress up, and he wasn't actually Kang the Conqueror. [00:57:40] Speaker B: Yeah, I get that. But the one in Quantumania, the main purpose of introducing Kang at that moment was it was more of a Marvel decision on wanting to make Scott Lang something of, like, a bigger. They wanted to give, like, a bigger movie in terms of decision. And that's, personally, one of the decisions I didn't really like or understood was the fact that they're like, okay, you know what? Our first two Ant man films didn't really go well with fans. Personally, I loved the Antman films because they're very family friendly, very heartly. That's kind of like the thing. And then all of a sudden, we're just going to go in and we're going to make Quantum mania one of the most important parts of the multiverse saga because we need to justify making a trilogy. And I'm just like, don't do that. No, there's better ways to do this. It kind of got to me in the sense, and listening to the ideas that you guys have now, it's like, yeah, it totally makes much more sense to do something like that. Like set up Kang, the Marvel's Marvel already played it out. There's not much we can do to change that. [00:59:01] Speaker C: That's the thing. [00:59:03] Speaker A: I want to shift a little bit of back. I know we've had a lot on Ant man as well. I want to kind of go back to Loki because we're running a little bit hot on time, and I apologize for my dog, but so, going back to specific moments in the finale, I want to talk about that reversed intro sequence. What did you guys think? [00:59:25] Speaker B: I loved it. I teased it before the episode aired. I teased it, and I put, oh, snap. It's rewind time from, like, Will Smith. And I was like, yes, I love all of that. Yeah. [00:59:42] Speaker C: Ultimately, the writing was just great after having the intro. I think what I loved about the season one finale so much was the intro was like, you felt the gravity of what was happening. You're being taken through the timeline. You're hearing all these quotes from the past. You're hearing all these historical quotes, and you start to realize we're about to redefine the MCU. And that's what the season one finale of Loki did. And I think they kind of did their own version of that now with this finale, with that intro as well. And I liked that. [01:00:18] Speaker A: So also, let's talk a little bit about Loki and Loki sacrificing himself for his friends. Was that an earned moment, in your opinion? Was that at a character? What did you think of that? [01:00:29] Speaker E: I have a lot of thoughts on this topic. So this is something I wanted to mention in the podcast, but haven't gotten around to it yet. So I think I said that I didn't love Loki season one. I think Loki season one is good, but I just don't really think it's for me. And a major part of that is that I didn't like Loki himself. Like, I hated him in season one. I thought the writing was really sloppy because I don't think any of his character development in the first season was earned because he just watched a slideshow of his life and then automatically became less evil and then just followed Sylvie around like a lost puppy for the whole show, which is fine, because I thought Sylvie was a much more interesting character than him. [01:01:09] Speaker A: That's a really good description, by the way. [01:01:13] Speaker E: I feel like season two. Well, I liked Sylvie because I thought she had that edge. Like, she had the edge of Loki from Avengers one. And I loved that edge to his character. And then in the first episode of the Loki show, they just, again, like, they sanded it off him by having him watch the MCU movies, and I didn't love that. But now, coming into season two, he was in an interesting place when season one ended. And then from the first episode, I was like, oh, this is way more interesting, like, what they're doing with Loki. And I feel like that's continued. I love that he's made these friends, and I love that he has gotten to a point where he's sacrificing his own life and his own ambition for. And again, like, everyone's been talking on Twitter about how no one could have thought, like, when Loki said that he wanted a throne and he had this glorious purpose, that it would end to him holding the entire multiverse together in his hands on a throne at the end of time. And the finale for me and that whole evolution of his character, that's made him one of the best characters in the MCU. So going from season one to where I didn't care about Loki that much to now at the end of season two, I think he's in my top five favorite MCU characters. Definitely, like, top five favorite in the Multiverse saga. I think it's just a testament to how good the writing has been this season that it's really developed him to that point, and it's developed him so well. [01:02:42] Speaker C: Yeah, I definitely agree. I think season two, to differ a little bit from your opinion, I liked season one a lot just because at the time, the multiverse hadn't been revealed, we didn't really know what was happening. And this was kind of like a show that really laid the groundwork for everything. And that's what I really loved, because at the time, I was like, I was really hyped for the multiverse. I'm hyped for the cameos and stuff like that. So I was really happy that we got some groundwork and some actual the multiverse theory revealed. So that's the part that I liked about season one. I like Loki when he's like, I like a nice Loki. And I do agree. Like, in episode one, they really did rush his character development, where he turns from pure evil to pure good. And I feel like that was a little bit of whiplash. But then once you kind of settle into the character, I think the end of the season got better. The finale of season one was probably, like I said, one of my favorite things in the MCU. But ultimately, I think the development of his character was a lot better. In season two. You get a lot more me. You get a lot more time to spend with the character of Loki and his mind, especially in the last two episodes, episode four, five, and six, you really get a complete character development from him. And I think that really tied everything together. And that's why, I guess if they're going to end it here, they've really stuck the landing with Loki and they've really kind of nailed it. Like, they've nailed his character and who he is. And I think season two just did a really good job of his development overall. [01:04:27] Speaker A: Alex, do you have any? [01:04:33] Speaker B: I felt like the entirety of the story was just kind of sending up to know. It's like Loki started out as this self in terms of the story, right. Because at this point, he hasn't lived through anything past the Avengers films. This variant literally just was captured by the Avengers and was just taken out of time. So he hasn't lived through the dark world, Ragnarok, infinity War. He hasn't lived through that. He kind of saw it, but he was still this character that was villain, right? And it's kind of like what you guys are saying. He turned from a purely evil villain to someone who learned what it meant to sacrifice himself for another person. And it was interesting, and I kind of like that decision for the show in terms of turning Loki into this benevolent God, so to speak, now, because that's kind of what he is now. He's just God. [01:05:34] Speaker A: So let's talk about. So he, you know, Loki walks down the gangway. He embraces the branches of the timeline, and now he's at the center of the Tree of Life. What do you guys think about that? I know there's a lot to talk about there. [01:05:54] Speaker E: I think Marvel put crack in the Loki season two finale. There's something about the things that Marvel releases that come out in November. Well, I mean, maybe not all of them, but they put crack in Black Panther Wakanda forever. That thing's amazing. And I felt like the same thing watching the season two finale of Loki, especially that moment. It was just, like, incredible again. That has to be, like, top ten MCU moments is like Loki finally being a God again, because that was also one of my biggest things with season one. I'm like, you're not using any of your magic. You're walking around in this dirty, ripped up shirt. It's like, have some, like, where's your, you know, Alex has obviously been teasing us. And I know he's been saying, oh, don't worry, he's going to get the horns this season. But I didn't expect the horns to be literally growing out of his head and to be the same stone that the Citadel was built out of with he who remains. I thought the man was just going to get a gold horned helmet, but no, he got some fancy end of time God horns. And I'm like, that's what I want to see. I want to see God Loki and that whole sequence and him finally getting his throne, but it's not the throne he wanted. And I mean, they already did that with Ragnarok, right? Like, Loki got the throne and then he found out that he couldn't handle the responsibility. So this is like a parallel to that, but it's such a satisfying, not, like, conclusion to his character, but I guess pause point for his character. But I don't know. I definitely see why they don't want to make season three, given that ending. But it's also like, we know Loki has to come back at some point, so I just don't know how they're going to top this ending. But obviously this can't actually be the character's end. [01:07:42] Speaker A: Why can't it be? [01:07:43] Speaker B: Because the sun has to shine. Why can't it be the way she said it's like, why can't it be? [01:07:51] Speaker C: Well, we know that secret wars. I mean, this is, like, a very broad topic, but we know that Secret wars is going to be like. I'm not saying this based off of the news. I'm just saying it based off of every Secret wars story. It's going to be somewhat of like a reboot. Not like a hard reboot, like a very soft reboot. But I would assume there's got to be some sort of multiversal implication with Loki of what happens in secret wars. [01:08:19] Speaker B: I've already said this before, and I mentioned it in my theory, which I kind of feel shitting out because I slightly knew what happened and it kind of led into the. But, and I've mentioned this before, Loki is the molecule man in the MCU secret War story. Like, he is currently powering the entirety of the multiverse, and it's going to come to this again. Loki will continue to be this battery, and he will be back. He will be back. But it's going to be a very. How do I explain this? For Secret wars, you have the creation of battle World, which is essentially, like this type concept of a bunch of different realities and a bunch of different universes put together into one universe. And Loki will continue to play that part of the Molecule man being the battery that holds together the multiverse and will eventually hold together battle world when it comes out. But yeah, that's sort of my idea on it slightly bit. I have to leave in like five minutes. I don't know. There's one thing I just have to say and I got to go. [01:09:48] Speaker A: Let's hear what you have to say. [01:09:50] Speaker B: All right. So at this, at some point, make a question about it. I don't know. But I did want to mention the ending, Ravonna Renslayer and what she does for the MCU, the implications moving forward. People are questioning what happened at the end. Just to give clarification. Ravonna Renslayer was at the void at the end of time with the pyramid. He was face to face with Elias with the pyramid in the back, which I'm not going to tease what that is yet. I also know what that is. I'm going to let people. No, quiet, quiet. Secrets. Secrets. Anyway. But she saw Elias at the end of time. And I'm just going to say, Ravona's run Slayer stories is not done. Her story moving forward has to do with Elias. And it's going to be really exciting and it's going to be potentially devastating to the multiverse. So we're going to have to wait and see when she comes back next. There are some Heavy rumors that I'm investigating that there's a possibility she may have something to do with Deadpool. But we're. We're gonna have to wait and see. We're going to have to wait and see what happens with her. But, yeah, I have to go. So thank you guys for being here. I love you guys. You are welcome. You guys have a great podcast. You are welcome. You guys are amazing. Love you. Bye. [01:11:12] Speaker A: I think that might be a good place for us to end, too. Unless you guys feel like you want to talk more. [01:11:19] Speaker E: I wanted to hear you thoughts on Ravonna as well because I definitely have some. [01:11:25] Speaker C: Poor Lizzie. She's going to have to edit the crap out of. [01:11:28] Speaker A: This is going to be a difficult. And I know we're way over time. Lizzie, I know you're listening to this. Thank you for all of your work. [01:11:35] Speaker E: We haven't hit 90 minutes yet. [01:11:38] Speaker A: We're over an hour, though. [01:11:40] Speaker C: Let's do a wrap up with our thoughts on Ravona and then we can wrap up. [01:11:44] Speaker E: Yeah, she said we could go up to 90. [01:11:45] Speaker B: Okay. [01:11:47] Speaker A: Our final thoughts Ravonna, Alex just shared his. She wakes up in the void. What do you guys think this means? [01:11:54] Speaker C: I don't know. Maybe she becomes like the leader of the Void or something like that. I don't know, man. The Goliath thing was a little bit confusing to me. I know that he, Hermaine says that he uses the Eliath to destroy other timelines or something like that, right? Yeah, he eats other timelines, which is such a weird concept that the MCU has introduced that time is tangible. You can hold time in your hand. [01:12:26] Speaker A: You can put it in a can. [01:12:28] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:12:29] Speaker C: It's just such a weird thing for me. It's been so hard for me to grasp that you can physically see time. It's a physical object and that you can touch it and manipulate it. And it's just such a weird concept. Obviously. This is such a weird concept. But yeah, with Ravona and mean, Alex did like a mean. Obviously. If she's able to kind of. I don't like, I guess Elias, they kind of allude to it as like a guard dog. It's like a dog. So if Ravonna and Elias can get along, then she can manipulate know, whatever her plans. [01:13:11] Speaker A: To. I think you use the word manipulate. I think she's totally going to find a way to control him because she's just in the Void, right? Is there anyone else in there between her and she's. She's pretty intelligent, pretty crafty. She's not a shrinking violent. [01:13:24] Speaker E: The other Lokis, right? Well, weren't they still kid Loki? [01:13:28] Speaker C: It was. The only Loki who was killed was old classic Loki. There's still other people too, I would imagine. The Void is like its own world. [01:13:40] Speaker B: Essentially. [01:13:41] Speaker C: The only thing is it's like a trash compactor. And Elias is the compactor is the furnace. Elias is like the furnace. So if Elias isn't destroying things, then it really could become its own world, essentially. [01:13:56] Speaker A: Well, it's also problematic, right? If Eliath isn't destroying things, that'll upset the balance of the little trash compact. Or think. [01:14:06] Speaker E: I think he is going to keep destroying things. I did want to mention with the tangibility of time, that's something that one of my friends really struggled with. So that's why she hated the finale of season one is because she's like, you can't see time. And I'm like, I'm like, why is that where you can't suspend a disbelief? I'm like, they can go to a citadel at the end of time where an anthropomorphic clock is giving you jump scares and controlling everything, but you can't see the timeline. I do think maybe grabbing it's a little bit more like, oh, okay. But I mean, that scene was epic, so I'll allow it. But about Ravonna, I'm like, okay, so she's in the Void. She sees Elias. I hate that that was in the trailer because I saw that in the trailer and I'm like, oh, my God, she's in the void with Elias. What's going to happen? And then I see this show and I'm like, what's going to happen? And then I'm like, oh, it's going to be a tease for season three. That's not. [01:15:04] Speaker A: Talk. [01:15:06] Speaker E: Sorry. I was just going to say this is, like, the one thing probably that I didn't like about season two, or one of the very few things I didn't like, is that I thought it set up really interesting stories for Ravonna and Miss minutes. I liked where their storyline was going, especially after episode four. And then they just drop them like a hot potato and they don't matter. And it gives me, like, ahsoka vibes where the main villain isn't in the second to last episode, and then they get a one split second shot in the, like just to be like, hey, they're here. And I don't know. I didn't love that. But I think she obviously harnesses Eliath. And my theory is that Eliath is her pet, not he who remains, because he who remains is a liar. He's like, I harnessed, I, like, condensed everything into the sacred timeline, and I'm the one who came out on top. But then we saw from episode four. From episode four, that's a lie because Ravonna is the one that led his armies to victory. And Ravonna, it seems like Ravonna was the brawn and he was the brain. [01:16:12] Speaker A: I think that's an excellent way of putting. Yeah, yeah. [01:16:15] Speaker E: And I think that she's the one that harnessed Eliath. So I think she's in the void and she's like, oh, crap, what am I going to do? There's this giant cloud monster coming down on me. And I think going with the guard dog analogy, he's going to be like, oh, my God, mom's back. And then I think she's going to show up in some future project writing. Like, I don't know. She's just going to show up on his back. I don't know how, because he's a cloud, but that's what I think is. [01:16:41] Speaker A: Going to the go ahead. Sorry. [01:16:44] Speaker C: No, you can go ahead. [01:16:46] Speaker A: I don't think this is the end for her. I don't know if it's going to show up in a season three because Loki seems to have a pretty solid ending there. But I think we will see more of her in different projects and we will see more of Eliath and hopefully some others. [01:17:01] Speaker C: The one thing I'm curious about with know we talk about this, and this is a little bit off topic, and I'll make this a quick thought, but Loki being able to time slip, I'm wondering if him time slipping would mean that he can stay at the end of time holding the multiverse together while time slipping his mind into a previous version of himself. And that could be a way to continue the character. I'm not sure how that would work if they could do that, but I feel like that would be a way where, it would be a way where the character could move forward. The only thing is, would that take him off his path that he's currently on? I don't know. Just a thought. [01:17:45] Speaker A: I thought that too. And I think especially with the being out of body and him not being out of body as they went on further, I think that's a way to do it, and I think it might make some people mad, but I think, yeah, that's an interesting thing to consider. All right, so do you guys have any final thoughts about the Loki season two finale before we finish up here? Anything you want to share? [01:18:14] Speaker C: I think I'm good. I mean, I liked it. Love Loki, love the show. Probably the best Disney plus show sucks that it's over. I think that they could have kept going, but this is a good ending for mean. It's hard to be like, hey, what are we going to do about Mobius? What are we going to do about Sylvie? Ravonna, there's a lot of the TVA. [01:18:37] Speaker E: Now it's time to pull a WandaVision and make a Sylvie show. [01:18:40] Speaker C: Yeah, no, I feel like the Deadpool three. They're introducing Matthew McFadden. There's a lot of rumors that his character is a TVA agent. I almost feel like maybe they're introducing him to replace Mobius because, I mean, I don't know if anybody's watched succession here. You guys watch Tom Womskins. Great character. Very, very, very funny. He definitely is like a TVA agent, kind of. He could play TVA agent really well. And I feel like maybe he'll be one of the main characters of the TVA going forward. So we'll see. [01:19:17] Speaker A: Well, thank, that's, I guess that's all we have now. We've fulfilled our glorious purpose. Thank you all for listening. I'm Ayla Ruby, and you can find everything I've [email protected]. Where can we find you guys? [01:19:31] Speaker C: I'm Drew Reed. You can find me on Twitter. Drew Reed 10 99 on Twitter. And obviously, you can find me on the Cosmic Circus. [01:19:42] Speaker E: And I'm uday. You can find me at Golden Ninja 3000 on Instagram, YouTube and Twitter. [01:19:49] Speaker A: All right. And again, go to thecosmicscircuS.com for more of our amazing theories and news. And it's been a pleasure. Thanks, guys. [01:19:59] Speaker B: You, Sam.